My email from PedalForce....... :)
05-23-06, 08:34 AM
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My email from PedalForce....... :)
I hope he doesn't make a big deal about me posting his email but I just wanted to share with you some information regarding pedalforce..........
The following is my email mixed in with a response from Mike at pedalforce:
The following is my email mixed in with a response from Mike at pedalforce:
>I don't want to jinx anything and ruin this for everyone but how are you able
to sell such good carbon frames at these prices?
>
Actually, we're not sure how much longer we can keep our prices down as the
price of carbon fiber keeps increasing. At the moment, we are able to offer good
prices because we're a small company with a very focused and specialized product
range, and we work hard to keep our marketing costs very low. Unlike many other
companies, we only concentrate on selling a few product models (for road racing)
with no frill comestics and no color options. In this way, we're able to
streamline our operation and inventory.
In terms of function, our bikes are every bit as good as other brand bikes that
cost a lot more. We have very good feedback about our bikes from customers who
have ridden or owned a variety of other so-called top-end machines. Cycling
Plus, whose reviewers are highly experienced and test bikes for a living,
awarded us Bike of the Year for the ZX3. Their chief reviewer, Paul Vincent,
chose to ride the ZX3 in last year's gruelling L'Etape du Tour and loved the
ride.
It is our opinion that the retail price of a bike is not a good indicator of
quality, in the sense that there is no guarantee that a $4000 bike is a better
bike than one that costs $2000. The difference in retail price of bikes between
different brands can be attributed to many factors other than quality. What we
do know is that our frames cost just as much to manufacture as many of the big
brand carbon frames (which incidentally are mostly made in Taiwan or China too).
They are made of similar high-grade carbon fiber, using the same
well-established manufacturing process, to the same design standards (stiffness
and strength) by the same factories. We also have stringent quality control to
ensure reliability of our products (see for example, https://pedalforce.biz/online/pages.php?page_id=15).
> But really, I need to know if you do any sort of painting or have color
schemes for your frames.
No. See reason above.
>o you have any new frame designs coming for the new year?
We haven't finalized our plan yet, but any new product will probably only be
launched next year.
>n any case, I expect to buy myself a QS2 frame or some pedal force frame
sometime in the near future.
> Thank you.
Thank you.
Regards,
Mike
Pedal Force
to sell such good carbon frames at these prices?
>
Actually, we're not sure how much longer we can keep our prices down as the
price of carbon fiber keeps increasing. At the moment, we are able to offer good
prices because we're a small company with a very focused and specialized product
range, and we work hard to keep our marketing costs very low. Unlike many other
companies, we only concentrate on selling a few product models (for road racing)
with no frill comestics and no color options. In this way, we're able to
streamline our operation and inventory.
In terms of function, our bikes are every bit as good as other brand bikes that
cost a lot more. We have very good feedback about our bikes from customers who
have ridden or owned a variety of other so-called top-end machines. Cycling
Plus, whose reviewers are highly experienced and test bikes for a living,
awarded us Bike of the Year for the ZX3. Their chief reviewer, Paul Vincent,
chose to ride the ZX3 in last year's gruelling L'Etape du Tour and loved the
ride.
It is our opinion that the retail price of a bike is not a good indicator of
quality, in the sense that there is no guarantee that a $4000 bike is a better
bike than one that costs $2000. The difference in retail price of bikes between
different brands can be attributed to many factors other than quality. What we
do know is that our frames cost just as much to manufacture as many of the big
brand carbon frames (which incidentally are mostly made in Taiwan or China too).
They are made of similar high-grade carbon fiber, using the same
well-established manufacturing process, to the same design standards (stiffness
and strength) by the same factories. We also have stringent quality control to
ensure reliability of our products (see for example, https://pedalforce.biz/online/pages.php?page_id=15).
> But really, I need to know if you do any sort of painting or have color
schemes for your frames.
No. See reason above.
>o you have any new frame designs coming for the new year?
We haven't finalized our plan yet, but any new product will probably only be
launched next year.
>n any case, I expect to buy myself a QS2 frame or some pedal force frame
sometime in the near future.
> Thank you.
Thank you.
Regards,
Mike
Pedal Force
05-23-06, 08:41 AM
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Not not mention that child labor is cheaper and their tiny hands are good for carbon layup.
Every Protour team sponsor has to recuperate his spending with higher frame prices, and magazine advertising is not cheap and must add to a frame price.
I like the Pedal force approach, not as much for price, but for more the custom build options that allow you to swap parts at will, try that with a Trek Madone or Colnago.
Every Protour team sponsor has to recuperate his spending with higher frame prices, and magazine advertising is not cheap and must add to a frame price.
I like the Pedal force approach, not as much for price, but for more the custom build options that allow you to swap parts at will, try that with a Trek Madone or Colnago.
05-23-06, 08:41 AM
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Not not mention that child labor is cheaper and their tiny hands are good for carbon layup.
Every Protour team sponsor has to recuperate his spending with higher frame prices, and magazine advertising is not cheap and must add to a frame price.
I like the Pedal force approach, not as much for price, but for more the custom build options that allow you to swap parts at will, try that with a Trek Madone or Colnago.
Every Protour team sponsor has to recuperate his spending with higher frame prices, and magazine advertising is not cheap and must add to a frame price.
I like the Pedal force approach, not as much for price, but for more the custom build options that allow you to swap parts at will, try that with a Trek Madone or Colnago.
05-23-06, 09:45 AM
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Well right now I'm leaning heavily toward getting a pedal force frame. But I must say though that I'm not too hot on their forks even though they are pretty cool regardless. I have a thing for the oversized carbon fork styles of the Scott CR-1 or the Flyte1 carbon forks.
Perhaps I can get a flyte fork and mate it with the pedal force frame?
Or how about an easton aero fork? Would they be ok for a regular road bike?
Perhaps I can get a flyte fork and mate it with the pedal force frame?
Or how about an easton aero fork? Would they be ok for a regular road bike?
05-23-06, 10:10 AM
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The complete story about the "Bike of the Year"? Cycling Plus nominated "Bikes of the Year" in a number of categories. The ZX3 is marketed as being a "racing bike". In the "Race Bike of the Year" category, the WINNER was the Merlin Extralight. Second Place went to the Cannondale Six 13. And, third place went to the Giant TCR Advanced.
Among the nominees for "race bike of the year", the Pedal Force was an "Honorable Mention", along with the Felt F55, the Planet X Team, the Time VXR, and the Kestral Evoke.
CP editors WERE very impressed with the bargain price of the ZX3. They said the ZX3 delivers the "maximum bang for the buck". CP does NOT rate the quality of the warranty provided with each bike, or rate the quality of warranty service. Folks who buy a ZX3 in 2006 will need to post eight or ten years from now, and tell us whether or not they are satisfied with their warranty service.
And, based on its bargain price, the ZX3 was the winner in the "generic" overall bike category. CP made clear that what they liked best about the ZX3 was the bargain price. And, they admit, a bargain price can make folks nervous. The editors noted "We were suspicious that something so cheap could be so good". However, in the end, they went with what CP calls its "bangs for buckometer".
CP also looked at road bikes built for comfort, rather than pure racing. The "Bike of the Year" in the "Distance Bike" category was the Specialized Roubaix. Second was LA Cycles. Third was the Lemond Versaille. Honorable mentions were the Cannondale Synapse and the Cannondale Six 13 (which finished second in "racing bikes"). NO bikes from Pedal Force made the list of nominees.
So, among the eight nominees for "race bike of the year", Pedal Force was tied for eighth, out of eight bikes considered. In the "distance bike" category of road bikes, Pedal Force was not among the six bikes nominated. In the overall, generic category where "bang for the buck" was the measuring stick, Pedal Force had the lowest price, which moved it to the top.
So, Cycling Plus did not say the Pedal Force was the "best" bike in any category, regardless of price. That was the Merlin, among racing bikes, and the Specialized, among "distance" bikes. The Pedal Force was the "best buy" among the bikes considered...no surprise, given its low price.
Among the nominees for "race bike of the year", the Pedal Force was an "Honorable Mention", along with the Felt F55, the Planet X Team, the Time VXR, and the Kestral Evoke.
CP editors WERE very impressed with the bargain price of the ZX3. They said the ZX3 delivers the "maximum bang for the buck". CP does NOT rate the quality of the warranty provided with each bike, or rate the quality of warranty service. Folks who buy a ZX3 in 2006 will need to post eight or ten years from now, and tell us whether or not they are satisfied with their warranty service.
And, based on its bargain price, the ZX3 was the winner in the "generic" overall bike category. CP made clear that what they liked best about the ZX3 was the bargain price. And, they admit, a bargain price can make folks nervous. The editors noted "We were suspicious that something so cheap could be so good". However, in the end, they went with what CP calls its "bangs for buckometer".
CP also looked at road bikes built for comfort, rather than pure racing. The "Bike of the Year" in the "Distance Bike" category was the Specialized Roubaix. Second was LA Cycles. Third was the Lemond Versaille. Honorable mentions were the Cannondale Synapse and the Cannondale Six 13 (which finished second in "racing bikes"). NO bikes from Pedal Force made the list of nominees.
So, among the eight nominees for "race bike of the year", Pedal Force was tied for eighth, out of eight bikes considered. In the "distance bike" category of road bikes, Pedal Force was not among the six bikes nominated. In the overall, generic category where "bang for the buck" was the measuring stick, Pedal Force had the lowest price, which moved it to the top.
So, Cycling Plus did not say the Pedal Force was the "best" bike in any category, regardless of price. That was the Merlin, among racing bikes, and the Specialized, among "distance" bikes. The Pedal Force was the "best buy" among the bikes considered...no surprise, given its low price.
Last edited by alanbikehouston; 05-23-06 at 03:34 PM.
05-23-06, 10:16 AM
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ok alan, but check out the price differences betweeen these bikes.....a MERLIN? Six13? we're talking thousands here. and if a QS2 or ZX3 can hold its own in the top 8 bikes of the year against bikes like these, well damn. im convinced.
05-23-06, 10:33 AM
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Allez, you are absolutely correct. The Pedal Force is considered to one of the best carbon frame bike in its price range. And, as CP editors pointed out, the "margin" between the Pedal Force frame and frames such as the Merlin is impressively narrow.
But, when something is suspiciously cheap, it is cheap for a reason. There is no such thing as a free lunch. The cost of the carbon or aluminum in a frame is trivial, compared to the retail cost of a bike. The retail cost of a bike reflects how much a company invests in the design process, in its factories, in its equipment, its engineers, its technicians, its quality control program, and its warranty program.
Testing programs vary in quality. For example, Cannondale employs more than a dozen engineers to design and test its frames and forks for durability and toughness. They take hundreds of completed frames every year, and then subject them to stress testing until the frame is destroyed. That sort of program costs well over a million dollars a year.
Warranty programs also vary in quality. Trek offers a lifetime warranty on carbon frames. Lifetime warranty on carbon forks. Just take your Trek to your neighborhood LBS, and the problem is taken care of, no charge. If you damage your carbon frame or fork in a crash, Trek has a crash replacement program that provides a new frame or fork at a substantial discount.
In comparison, Pedal Force offers a five year warranty on frames. Two years on forks. No crash replacement program. The customer pays to have the bike disassembled and the shipping to return the defective frame. The customer pays to have the bike reassembled when the customer receives the replacement frame.
The two warranty programs are "equal" in quality, IF you own bikes for two years or less, and never crash. Otherwise, the Trek warranty offers substantially more to buyers. Warranty programs are one of the reasons some bikes cost more, and some bikes cost less.
If folks buy the cheapest frame they can find, they are rolling the dice. A decade from now, Pedal Force owners may say "buying that bike was the smartest thing I ever did". Or, they may be wishing they had spent more, and bought a frame from an established company that had two or three decades of bike building experience. Your money. Your choice.
But, when something is suspiciously cheap, it is cheap for a reason. There is no such thing as a free lunch. The cost of the carbon or aluminum in a frame is trivial, compared to the retail cost of a bike. The retail cost of a bike reflects how much a company invests in the design process, in its factories, in its equipment, its engineers, its technicians, its quality control program, and its warranty program.
Testing programs vary in quality. For example, Cannondale employs more than a dozen engineers to design and test its frames and forks for durability and toughness. They take hundreds of completed frames every year, and then subject them to stress testing until the frame is destroyed. That sort of program costs well over a million dollars a year.
Warranty programs also vary in quality. Trek offers a lifetime warranty on carbon frames. Lifetime warranty on carbon forks. Just take your Trek to your neighborhood LBS, and the problem is taken care of, no charge. If you damage your carbon frame or fork in a crash, Trek has a crash replacement program that provides a new frame or fork at a substantial discount.
In comparison, Pedal Force offers a five year warranty on frames. Two years on forks. No crash replacement program. The customer pays to have the bike disassembled and the shipping to return the defective frame. The customer pays to have the bike reassembled when the customer receives the replacement frame.
The two warranty programs are "equal" in quality, IF you own bikes for two years or less, and never crash. Otherwise, the Trek warranty offers substantially more to buyers. Warranty programs are one of the reasons some bikes cost more, and some bikes cost less.
If folks buy the cheapest frame they can find, they are rolling the dice. A decade from now, Pedal Force owners may say "buying that bike was the smartest thing I ever did". Or, they may be wishing they had spent more, and bought a frame from an established company that had two or three decades of bike building experience. Your money. Your choice.
Last edited by alanbikehouston; 05-23-06 at 07:15 PM.
05-23-06, 10:41 AM
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Originally Posted by UmneyDurak
I think people will call me crazy but I preffer caad8 frame over carbon. Anyway nice website.
05-23-06, 10:45 AM
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Originally Posted by alanbikehouston
For example, Cannondale employs more than a dozen engineers to design and test its frames and forks for durability and toughness. They take hundreds of completed frames every year, and then subject them to stress testing until the frame is destroyed. That sort of program costs well over a million dollars a year.
For every dollar Cannondales spends on R&D, they likely spend $2 on advertising. $1m does not buy a lot of advertising.
05-23-06, 10:50 AM
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Originally Posted by UmneyDurak
I think people will call me crazy but I preffer caad8 frame over carbon. Anyway nice website.
05-23-06, 10:58 AM
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Originally Posted by DocRay
Taiwanese companies do a lot of stress and destructive testing, they meet or exceed ISO standards and exceed most factories in the world.
For every dollar Cannondales spends on R&D, they likely spend $2 on advertising. $1m does not buy a lot of advertising.
For every dollar Cannondales spends on R&D, they likely spend $2 on advertising. $1m does not buy a lot of advertising.
You are assuming every bike factory in the world meets the quality control standards set by Trek, Cannondale, and Giant. My old army drill sergeant had a charming expression about people who substitute assumptions for facts.
Only in Lake Woebegone is every child a "straight A" student. Only in Lake Woebegone does every bike maker have the same high standards for design, production, and quality control set by Giant, Cannondale, and Trek.
Last edited by alanbikehouston; 05-23-06 at 03:38 PM.
05-23-06, 11:03 AM
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Originally Posted by alanbikehouston
Don't ask to see the "stress testing" program at a "bargain basement" bike company. "Quality Control" may just be the owner's 300 pound cousin, "Murray". The testing program consists of having Murry ride the bike around the parking lot to see if it breaks.
Does it matter as long as the bikes perform well and hold up fine? Show me stats that indicate that off-brand bike frames have frequent failures, 'cause I'm not seeing the anecdotal evidence on BF.
05-23-06, 11:05 AM
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I see Trek's QC procedures worked out great for Hincapie when his steerer tube snapped at the Roubaix.
05-23-06, 11:15 AM
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Originally Posted by alanbikehouston
The EXACT truth about the "Bike of the Year"? Cycling Plus nominated "Bikes of the Year" in a number of categories. ...
Several European mags have tested the Pedalforce (Corratec, Focus) with the negative hypothesis and have all come back surprised, and some outright questioning the pricing of some European bikes made in the same factory (Ridley, Kuota, Aquila, etc.). The Factory is Maratec in Taipei.The same magazines lost Litespeed advertising after a test of the Ghisallo and the frank opinions offered. Corratecs are in the Protour with Colombia/Selle italia.
Why are most manufacturers going to CF? Because there is about the same labor involved, but much, much higher profits. Companies like Pedalforce are the next generation that will influence pricing of CF frames for the next few years. Same thing happened with aluminum. These countries benefit industry mainly by not having medical benefits to pay, which is why companies like GM are moving production to Asia in the face of having to pay $15, 000, 000 in Viagara for its elite work force (reference).
The reason why you don't know the location of the factory Alan is that the company has not invested millions in ad campaigns with fake workmen in tiny shops, convincing racist rednecks that the little flag sticker on the frame means the whole bike is made in the USA, and a guy pushing a button on a robot in Wisconsin is different than a guy pushing a button in Taiwan. You cannot buy a bike with all parts sourced in the US, the majority of bike parts are made in Asia, and likely subcontracted to China. You need to learn a little more about business before you think that Trek's huge ad campaigns and Discovery sponsorship don't add the price of every single frame.
05-23-06, 11:20 AM
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Originally Posted by badkarma
I see Trek's QC procedures worked out great for Hincapie when his steerer tube snapped at the Roubaix.
The Pro cyclists using Trek bikes put in close to half a million miles a year during training and racing. Some of the world's most expensive crash test dummies. If a bike can survive what those guys dish out, they can survive taking us "Joe Average" riders down to the coffee shop.
Advertising may impact test ratings at some magazines. Not at Cycling Plus. The Pedal Force finished in a tie for eighth, out of the eight racing bikes tested, because that was how the editors saw the bikes. CP editors say what they think. They rated a bike last in a six bike comparison after that company had bought an inside cover or back cover several months in a row. And, they have given top ratings to bikes and components made by companies which have never bought advertising in CP.
And of course, at "DirectBargainBikesR-US", they still have cousin Murray, riding around the parking lot testing bikes. Each bike company's testing budget varies.
Last edited by alanbikehouston; 05-23-06 at 01:04 PM.
05-23-06, 11:23 AM
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Again, does it matter as long as the bikes perform well and hold up fine? Where are the broken Motos and Pedal Force bikes?
05-23-06, 11:28 AM
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Originally Posted by Phantoj
Again, does it matter as long as the bikes perform well and hold up fine? Where are the broken Motos and Pedal Force bikes?
When asian parts break, its the pinko-commie workforce and Mao Tse-tung's policies, when american parts break, that's Lance's advanced research and development team pushing the envelope to the xtreme.
Just wait for July and alan's TDF posts...you can't make up stuff that hilarious.
05-23-06, 11:32 AM
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ABH,
How come a Trek was not Bike of the Year? As for winning the Tour the last 7 years, I think it has more to do with the rider than the bike. What would have happened if Armstrong would have been on another brand? Treks R&D budget probably would have been a lot less and sales would not have been so good.
How come a Trek was not Bike of the Year? As for winning the Tour the last 7 years, I think it has more to do with the rider than the bike. What would have happened if Armstrong would have been on another brand? Treks R&D budget probably would have been a lot less and sales would not have been so good.
05-23-06, 12:07 PM
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Originally Posted by alanbikehouston
Actually, Paris-Roubaix IS a part of Trek's QC procedures. Over the past seven years, Trek bikes have won the Tour de France seven times. During both training and racing, Lance and his team found areas that could be improved. The Trek OCLV frame for 2006 is a much improved frame, compared with my 1996 OCLV. The newer generation of OCLV frames is lighter, yet much better at shocking up road shock than the early generation.
The Pro cyclists using Trek bikes put in close to half a million miles a year during training and racing. Some of the world's most expensive crash test dummies. If a bike can survive what those guys dish out, they can survive taking us "Joe Average" riders down to the coffee shop.
The Pro cyclists using Trek bikes put in close to half a million miles a year during training and racing. Some of the world's most expensive crash test dummies. If a bike can survive what those guys dish out, they can survive taking us "Joe Average" riders down to the coffee shop.
Trek's biggest selling point is that Lance rode Trek to 7 TdF victories, but I'm inclined to believe that was more about the rider than the bike. I'm willing that if LF were riding a Cyfaq, Colnago, Cervelo, Pinorello, etc. that he would've still won those 7 TdF titles.
05-23-06, 12:17 PM
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Originally Posted by badkarma
I bet if you asked Hincapie about the crash he wouldn't be raving about Trek's QC procedures, I bet he'd be pretty pissed that a cracked steerer tube practically cost him Paris-Roubaix.
Trek's biggest selling point is that Lance rode Trek to 7 TdF victories, but I'm inclined to believe that was more about the rider than the bike. I'm willing that if LF were riding a Cyfaq, Colnago, Cervelo, Pinorello, etc. that he would've still won those 7 TdF titles.
Trek's biggest selling point is that Lance rode Trek to 7 TdF victories, but I'm inclined to believe that was more about the rider than the bike. I'm willing that if LF were riding a Cyfaq, Colnago, Cervelo, Pinorello, etc. that he would've still won those 7 TdF titles.
05-23-06, 12:22 PM
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Originally Posted by StalkerZERO
I'm gonna have to agree. But you do have to admit though that trek might come back and say that the bike had been involved in a crash earlier in the race. And that perhaps it was a bad call by johan that hincapie should continue the race on the bike. Perhaps hincapie himself should have known better? Well I bet he won't repeat the same mistake next time.
05-23-06, 12:23 PM
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Originally Posted by badkarma
You're right, I can't say for sure that the steerer tube wasn't damaged in his first crash of that stage - but either way, it's not the best PR for Trek.
05-23-06, 12:27 PM
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Lance Armstrong has said himself that his first tour was won on "inferior equipment."
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05-23-06, 12:27 PM
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This string of Pedal Force plugs by Stalkerzero are beginning to remind me of one of those infomercials with the English guy, where they PRETEND that it is a real show.