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  1. #1
    Announcer EventServices's Avatar
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    We're going to yell at you.

    Our Tuesday night ride is fast and furious, and strangely has no egos. It's all the fast guys in the metro-Detroit area. We rotate a double echelon at about 30mph. We sprint at pre-determined points. We regroup. We chit chat. Then we fire it up again. We have sprinters and lead-outs. But again, no egos.

    And every week, we get new riders jumping into our line and trying to roll with us. That's fine. Go for it. But you should be prepared to meet a very steep learning curve.
    Some fail to realize what we're doing, and when they make mistakes, we yell.

    You will get yelled at for the following mistakes:
    - If you're on the front, do NOT pull the line through the bumpiest section of pavement. GO AROUND IT! There is no need to trash our wheels and bodies.
    - If you're on the front, don't ride on the very edge of the pavement. Give some room for the echelon behind you.
    - If you're on the front, you MUST pedal down the hills. Do not coast.
    - If the line is hammering and you want out, you must hammer until you are on the front - even if it kills you - and then pull off. Do not pull out of the middle of the line. That's dangerous, and it creates a gap that the rider behind you must cover. You will get yelled at.
    - When it's your turn to pull through and take your turn on the front, DO NOT accelerate. That's bad.
    - When it's your turn to pull off the front, flick your elbow and move smoothly to the side. Nothing abrupt.

    Please do not call us elitist. And don't ask us to 'dumb down' our training ride.

  2. #2
    Senior Member Dinstee's Avatar
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    all well and good I'm sure. Sounds to me like your buddies need to have some shirts printed that says, "bugger off! We're training!". That would be quite "ego-less".
    Yeah, I've been on your wheel for a good long time. I'll be more than happy to pull us all if you'd just slow down a bit. ;)

  3. #3
    Race to train jrennie's Avatar
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    that sounds like ANY group ride etiqute for the people I ride with(mix of racer, tour and fitness oriented riders). On Wen. nights this group has a crit style ride just to work on pace lines like you mentioned with one addition, dont coast into turns as it jams everyone up(in this crit style)

  4. #4
    You Know!? For Kids! jsharr's Avatar
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    Good tips, all of them. Thanks for the post. Though I seldom ride paceline, I have encountered and or caused many of the situations you covered. However, we all had to start riding at some point and one of the ways that we learn is through our mistakes. Make sure that your yelling also includes instruction as to correct ettiquete for your group.
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  5. #5
    Giving you the business. Cypress's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by EventServices
    - When it's your turn to pull through and take your turn on the front, DO NOT accelerate. That's bad.

    This simply cannot be repeated enough.
    Quote Originally Posted by Moderator
    Dear Cypress,

    You have received an infraction at Bike Forums.

  6. #6
    Nookular Free Since '03 kingofchimps's Avatar
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    and we care becaaaaaaause?

    try educating the people *you actually ride with* instead of whining like an elitist ******

  7. #7
    Former grouch, now happy H1449-6's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by kingofchimps

    try educating the people *you actually ride with*
    +1. The rest was unnecessary.
    Spectrum Ti Super | Landshark Roadshark | Serotta Colorado | Gunnar Crosshairs | Trek 9800 | Santana fillet brazed tandem | K2 Easy Roller | Dawes (BD) Bullseye 1x1

  8. #8
    Dirt-riding heretic DrPete's Avatar
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    All of the above recommendations are fine and good, but I'm sure that these noob riders aren't showing up to your rides thinking "I wonder how I can break up this paceline." There is a certain amount of ignorance about how to ride in a paceline, and I'm sure that most riders who try it for the first time aren't trying to do anything malicious.

    So, sure, educate them. But why yell? So you had to cover a bike length because someone dropped back early. I thought you were out there to work! Same goes for the rest of the stuff.

    Bottom line is that there's a constructive, helpful way to teach someone something, and the snippy, snobbish, hostile way that makes people think you're a snob and hate the fact that they came out to ride with you. That's why people might think you're elitist--not because you ride in a paceline.

    The whole "get it right or we're going to yell at you" a$$hole attitude is exactly what you claim it not to be--elitist. No egos? How about the entire group that chooses to intimidate the noob?. How about an experienced cyclist who tries to take a noob under his wing and instruct as they go? Might be more helpful than what you're doing...

    DrPete
    Last edited by DrPete; 06-01-06 at 08:48 AM.

  9. #9
    means go allez's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by kingofchimps
    and we care becaaaaaaause?

    try educating the people *you actually ride with* instead of whining like an elitist ******
    easy there tiger......this was a good thread before that comment. he made some very valid points about riding in a strict paceline. If you have ever ridden with a group on a ride like this, you would know that every takes it very seriously to simulate a race environment.
    OP, good post.

  10. #10
    Senior Member 55/Rad's Avatar
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    People who don't have egos never feel the need to tell that to the world.

    Other than that, your "suggestions" are solid.

    55/Rad

  11. #11
    Announcer EventServices's Avatar
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    I'll take you under my wing on Wednesday night when we're not going 30mph and when you're not an immediate threat to the well-being of 20 riders.

    We'll yell because we don't have time to explain the intricacies and nuance of a paceline at that speed.

    I know riders who will actually grab you by the jersey and physically remove you from the line. That's how important it is to us to NOT have to deal with you.

    Elitist? OK, I'll go with that since we've worked hard to get to the elite level, and we want to train not teach on Tuesdays.

    And seriously, it has nothing to do with ego. It has everything to do with training at the highest level possible. Don't confuse the two.

  12. #12
    Dirt-riding heretic DrPete's Avatar
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    There's just a fine line between explaining to someone that this is a hard training ride, we work to keep in a fast paceline, maybe you should try Wednesday nights first, etc., and just being hostile toward a rider who, I'm sure, doesn't know any better. The latter is one of the reasons people think of road biking as an "elitist" sport.

    I will still argue, at the risk of splitting hairs, "NOT to have to deal with you" and "I need to train at the highest level possible" is a statement that arises from a big ego. You're a good rider. You'd drop me like a hot rock. But let's face it--not having the time to show a noob what's up because you "need to train at the highest level possible" is a function of ego. I'm not even necessarily calling it bad, but there IS an inherent "I'm better than you" in that statement.

    One of the reasons that I do most of my riding solo is that the A/AA riders in the local club have no time for anyone that isn't a regular or might be trying the paceline thing for the first time. I'm fairly experienced at packs/pacelines, and I've started racing Cat 5, but the attitude that newer riders get from you and others on your Tuesday night ride are what turn them off to cycling and never give them the opportunity to develop their skills.

    At least tell folks how it is and offer the option of the Wednesday night ride. Just don't slam the door on an up-and-coming rider just because they might drop your HR for a minute or two during your training ride. All I'm saying is that a little consideration and courtesy can make or break the experience for a newer cyclist--Believe me, it takes some courage just to show up at a fast club ride the first time. Why not be a little more welcoming and make the rider want to come back for more?

    DrPete

  13. #13
    hell's angels h/q e3st ny brunop's Avatar
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    yell at me and you'll get a knuckle sammich. you hear me, boy?
    ". . .a striped jersey under his jacket; bared calves (outside the bicycle track); cap pushed back; feet in a false position on the pedals; a barking horn, a disorderly appearance, an always-dry tongue, and a definite fondness for wine merchants. . ."

  14. #14
    Dirt-riding heretic DrPete's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by brunop
    yell at me and you'll get a knuckle sammich. you hear me, boy?
    You're right--he IS a threat to your well-being

  15. #15
    Up on the Down Side CyLowe97's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by EventServices
    I'll take you under my wing on Wednesday night when we're not going 30mph and when you're not an immediate threat to the well-being of 20 riders.

    Elitist? OK, I'll go with that since we've worked hard to get to the elite level, and we want to train not teach on Tuesdays.
    Why not make a Wednesday night ride a prerequisite for joining the Tuesday ride?

  16. #16
    Senior Member Snicklefritz's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by EventServices
    I'll take you under my wing on Wednesday night when we're not going 30mph and when you're not an immediate threat to the well-being of 20 riders.

    We'll yell because we don't have time to explain the intricacies and nuance of a paceline at that speed.

    I know riders who will actually grab you by the jersey and physically remove you from the line. That's how important it is to us to NOT have to deal with you.

    [snip]

    .
    Grabbing someone by the jersey to physically "remove" them from the line doesn't sound entirely safe either. If you've got the time to do that, I think you'd have the time to say something brief. Who are these people you are referring to? Random riders who happen to be out on the road when you guys are doing your training? and they just hop on the back of the line and join up? Or are they joining you at the start of the ride?

    I can understand your frustration in some respects because you're going out with an objective and other people are interfering with exactly what you had planned. I'll concede with you on things related to safety, but if you're taking about having to "close a gap", then just deal with it. That's part of what you'll have to put up with by riding on public roads where you can't completely control who joins on or not. Besides, like someone else implied, this could be good race training itself. What are you going to do in a breakaway if someone else slows down or accelerates at the front of the line? What if someone cracks and falls off and they were in the middle of it? Seems like good practice to me.

    If it's really that bad, can you find a different route? where I live some of the race rides have taken on a life of their own since they do the same route every week. word gets around and pretty soon everybody in the area knows about it. The fortunate part though is the group usually splinters into several smaller groups according to ability. So the super fast people end up by themselves. If someone else can hang with those guys, more power to them. If these people wanted to do a rotating double whatever, then they would just need to do a different route where people weren't expecting them to ride

  17. #17
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    Why don't you just approach people before the ride starts and lay down your "rules". Then you won't have to yell at them. I'm having hard time buying your safety issue when you've riders grabbing jerseys. What if one of your regular riders is having an off day and has to pull out of the paceline, do you yell at him as well? I agree with all of your points but if your going to be dropped pull out rather than force everyone behind you to go around to fill the gap. If someone has to push themselves that hard to keep up their bike handling is going to suffer and they're more of a threat in the paceline than fading back. Your group sounds like that shouldn't have any problems filling a gap.

  18. #18
    more ape than man timmhaan's Avatar
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    unless i'm mistaken, i think ES is referring to people joining the ride while they're already up to speed. random guys off the street so to speak.

    it's nearly impossible to sound polite when your heart rate is 180bpm and you're concentrating on yourself and the other riders. you can't really say stuff like "hey, nice bike, oh by the way - would you mind pulling through smoothly when you're up at the front, cause that would really help us out? cool. thanks!". you have to yell stuff and often times it sounds harsh.

  19. #19
    unaangalia nini? baiskeli's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by kingofchimps
    and we care becaaaaaaause?

    try educating the people *you actually ride with* instead of whining like an elitist ******
    Actually, I do, and I think you are an idiot

  20. #20
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    And your telling us this why?????

  21. #21
    Certifiable Bike "Expert"
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    Quote Originally Posted by DIZZAH
    And your telling us this why?????
    It's an educational post. He could have dryly stated, "This post is a compilation of dangerous paceline behaviors. New riders should consider these behaviors and determine to avoid them..."

    but what fun is that?

  22. #22
    Blast from the Past Voodoo76's Avatar
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    I have no problem with this, unlike many of you I accept and even embrace that Road Racing is elitist. By its very nature it has to be. If you dont like it then go take up frisbee golf, or some other candy a** sport. The point of this thread is if you go out on hard core training rides dont expect a polite explanation of everything you are doing wrong. If that is your expectation you will come away feeling pissed or picked on, expect that if you make a mistake you will hear about it immediatly. I don't see what is wrong with that??

    Another way to look at it, Riders are blunt and to the point, efficiency in language.

  23. #23
    hell's angels h/q e3st ny brunop's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Voodoo76
    Another way to look at it, Riders are blunt and to the point, efficiency in language.
    if the OP is say lance armstrong or jan ulrich or someone we've hear of then yeah, go ahead and yell. but if he's not, ******bag'd better be prepared for a k-sammich.

    just sayin'. . .
    ". . .a striped jersey under his jacket; bared calves (outside the bicycle track); cap pushed back; feet in a false position on the pedals; a barking horn, a disorderly appearance, an always-dry tongue, and a definite fondness for wine merchants. . ."

  24. #24
    Blast from the Past Voodoo76's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by brunop
    if the OP is say lance armstrong or jan ulrich or someone we've hear of then yeah, go ahead and yell. but if he's not, ******bag'd better be prepared for a k-sammich.

    just sayin'. . .
    Hey, if thats how you want to deal with it, no problem. But ride like a dumb a** and you're still gonna get yelled at.

  25. #25
    monster
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    Seems like you are trying to set people up for failure. If the rides are that structured and hardcore, maybe you shouldn't allow new riders to jump in on the line. This would spare you from coming across so insecure and would save other cyclists from having ride with you and your annoying friends.

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