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Former LBS Salesman/Fitter Says You All Are Wrong!

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Former LBS Salesman/Fitter Says You All Are Wrong!

Old 06-07-06, 02:15 PM
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Former LBS Salesman/Fitter Says You All Are Wrong!

I swung past the LBS where I bought my Lemond last year riding my newish FormerBMX'er built Fuji. He inquired about the Lemond, I said I still have it but it's too big (55cm w/56.5cm t-t). He seemed uncertain, but I told him I had to install a 80mm stem to get the fit right (long legs/short torso).

He agreed the stem was short, but told me I could adjust the fit by "Moving The Saddle Forward". I mentioned KOPS, but he dismissed it as if it bore little importance. He mentioned something about Lemonds having slacker seat-tubes and that there was room to come forward. The Lemond has the same seat-tube angle as my Fuji and the Fuji a much better fit (54cm w/55.0 cm t-t).

I decided long ago that I would never buy another bike there as I shouldn't need an 80mm stem to get the fit right. Even if I did move the saddle and kept the 100mm, there's now way I'll get 20mm worth of saddle adjustment alone, I'd prolly need a zero offset seatpost as well. Now I understand why I never got fitted, mis-sized and eventually screwed, BTW way I was there to get a spare tube .

Last edited by FormerBMX'er; 06-07-06 at 02:43 PM.
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Old 06-07-06, 02:26 PM
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Where in Boston are you located? Care to share which shop to avoid?
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Old 06-07-06, 02:39 PM
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It shouldn't take an expert fitter to know not to sell a bike to a person with long legs and a short torso a bike with a longer top tube than seat tube.
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Old 06-07-06, 02:42 PM
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Originally Posted by FormerBMX'er
I swung past the LBS where I bought my Lemond last year riding my newish FormerBMX'er built Fuji. He inquired about the Lemond, I said I still have it but it's too big (55cm w/56.5cm t-t). He seemed uncertain, but I told him I had to install a 80mm stem to get the fit right (long legs/short torso).

He agreed the stem was short, but told me I could adjust the fit by "Moving The Saddle Forward". I mentioned KOPS, but he dismissed it as if it bore little importance. He mentioned something about Lemonds having slacker seat-tubes and that there was room to come forward. The Lemond has the same seat-tube angle as my Fuji and the Fuji a much better fit (54cm w/55.0 cm t-t).

I decided long ago that I would never buy another bike there as I shouldn't need an 80mm stem to get the fit right. Even if I did move the saddle and kept the 100mm, there's now way I'll 20mm worth of saddle adjustments alone, I'd prolly need a zero offset seatpost as well. Now I understand why I never got fitted, mis-sized and eventually screwed, BTW way I was there to get a spare tube .
If 55CM is the seat tube, then 56.5 is kind of long for a TT. I like all my bikes to be equal in the C-C dimensions of the ST and TT. Personally 55 or 56 fits well with minimal seatpost or stem adjustment. In my case 56 lets me put the saddle level with the stem, preffered position. Good luck and try a Thomson seatpost if you like no setback.

Tim
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Old 06-07-06, 02:45 PM
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Originally Posted by Chef23
Where in Boston are you located? Care to share which shop to avoid?
Comm.Ave, but NOT Landry's
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Old 06-07-06, 02:48 PM
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I also have long legs in relation to my torso and my fitter suggests a 55 seat tube and 53 TT.

Whats the scoop on those Thomson seat posts? DO they give more forward adjustability?
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Old 06-07-06, 02:50 PM
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Originally Posted by cs1
If 55CM is the seat tube, then 56.5 is kind of long for a TT. I like all my bikes to be equal in the C-C dimensions of the ST and TT. Personally 55 or 56 fits well with minimal seatpost or stem adjustment. In my case 56 lets me put the saddle level with the stem, preffered position. Good luck and try a Thomson seatpost if you like no setback.

Tim
Yeah, that's the thing with Lemonds...long t-tubes, I didn't know this or my dimensions going into all this. It's a tad longer than a Biachi 57cm. More than likely I'll break the bike down and ebay the frame/fork for peanuts. I'm liking that new Nashbar XRP, it'll be my speed beater for fast weekend group rides.

Last edited by FormerBMX'er; 06-07-06 at 04:09 PM.
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Old 06-07-06, 02:54 PM
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Originally Posted by Miller2
I also have long legs in relation to my torso and my fitter suggests a 55 seat tube and 53 TT.

Whats the scoop on those Thomson seat posts? DO they give more forward adjustability?
They place you further forward by about 20mm over standard seatposts but at the same saddle mounting point.
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Old 06-07-06, 02:55 PM
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Lets see, a difference in TT length of 1.5 cm, thats oh, 0.6 inch. Get real. thats not a signifiant difference. How long of stem do you think is corect by the way? the difference between 80 cm and 100 cm is still less than an inch. I find more difference due to early/late season flexabilty and conditioning to make a greater difference than that. It probably more the overall geometry of the frame than anything about the fit.
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Old 06-07-06, 03:04 PM
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Originally Posted by howsteepisit
Lets see, a difference in TT length of 1.5 cm, thats oh, 0.6 inch. Get real. thats not a signifiant difference. How long of stem do you think is corect by the way? the difference between 80 cm and 100 cm is still less than an inch. I find more difference due to early/late season flexabilty and conditioning to make a greater difference than that. It probably more the overall geometry of the frame than anything about the fit.
Yeah, over 100miles that makes absolutely no difference...come on! I actually wanted a t-t of 54.5 but that seems to be an odd length. I just swapped the Fuji down to a 90mm stem and it feels just right which means I could have gone slightly shorter on the t-t (100mm stem ideally) which tells me the Lemond is waaayyyyy to friggin long.

It's a good thing bike manufactures don't go by your "less than an inch" thinking...there would be a lot gaps in frame sizes if they did (ie...Lemond 53cm, the bike I should have wouldn't exist).

This isn't about the difference in the two frames, it's about him telling me to move the saddle forward to get a proper fit.

Last edited by FormerBMX'er; 06-07-06 at 04:13 PM.
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Old 06-07-06, 05:21 PM
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I think I know which shop you are speaking of, and I refuse to shop there for a long list of reasons that I won't get into here. I didn't even look at LeMond bikes when I was last in the market, as I know that they don't fit me well because of the long cockpit. If you really want to try and make that bike fit comfortably, set up an appt with the fit guys at Belmont Wheelworks. As for KOPS, it, like most rules regarding bike fit, is only a guideline. Having a properly trained person analyze YOUR physiology and YOUR riding style, and making the necessary adjustments to YOUR bike is a much better way to go. It is worth every penny if you LOVE to climb on that bike.
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Old 06-07-06, 05:38 PM
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Originally Posted by demoncyclist
IHaving a properly trained person analyze YOUR physiology and YOUR riding style, and making the necessary adjustments to YOUR bike is a much better way to go.
The best person to analyze your fit is your self, that's also the person with the most self interest too.
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Old 06-07-06, 06:02 PM
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Originally Posted by howsteepisit
Lets see, a difference in TT length of 1.5 cm, thats oh, 0.6 inch. Get real. thats not a signifiant difference. How long of stem do you think is corect by the way? the difference between 80 cm and 100 cm is still less than an inch. I find more difference due to early/late season flexabilty and conditioning to make a greater difference than that. It probably more the overall geometry of the frame than anything about the fit.
To a "princess and the pea" member of the pro peloton, a half inch difference in the distance between the rear of the saddle to the front of the stem is "life or death". To "Joe Average Cyclist" such differences are trivial.

It is easy to make half inch adjustments in fit by moving the saddle half an inch one way or the other (KOP's is another "princess and the pea" doctrine with little value to recreational cyclists) or by getting a stem that is half an inch shorter or longer.

I've set up most of my road bikes so that the distance from the rear of the saddle to the front of the stem is 31 1/2 inches. By having all my bikes set up to identical measurements, it feels "natural" when I ride one bike in the morning and one bike in the afternoon. BUT, if I set up all my bikes with a RS to FS distance of 32 inches, that would soon feel natural, as it would if all of my bikes had a RS to FS measurement of 31 inches.

In a wind tunnel, it might be possible to prove that there was a "magic" RS to FS measurement that was 1% more "aero" than some other measurement. But, if someone is riding for relaxation and fitness, should he obsess over finding that hypothetical 1%?

If a customer says "I'll never shop at a certain LBS because I have a half-inch fitting disagreement with one of their staff members", I'd suspect that the staff at the LBS is saying "I hope that guy with a half-inch brain takes his business elsewhere".

Last edited by alanbikehouston; 06-07-06 at 06:49 PM.
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Old 06-07-06, 06:13 PM
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Originally Posted by FormerBMX'er
Comm.Ave, but NOT Landry's

Honestly wouldnt be shocked if landrys told you that...
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Old 06-07-06, 06:19 PM
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Originally Posted by hi565
Honestly wouldnt be shocked if landrys told you that...

Ditto ... have heard horror stories.
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Old 06-07-06, 06:20 PM
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Originally Posted by alanbikehouston
To a "princess and the pea" member of the pro peloton, a half inch difference in the distance between the rear of the saddle to the front of the stem is "life or death". To "Joe Average Cyclist" such differences are trivial.

It is easy to make half inch adjustments in fit by moving the saddle half an inch one way or the other (KOP's is another "princess and the pea" doctrine with little value to recreational cyclists) or by getting a stem that is half an inch shorter or longer.

If a customer says "I'll never shop at a certain LBS because I have a half-inch fitting disagreement with one of their staff members", I'd suspect that the staff at the LBS is saying "I hope that guy with a half-inch brain takes his business elsewhere".
Such replies always seem to come from the uninformed, but then how could they be? When they don't have all the facts? The fact of the matter is I started having shoulder pain late last summer with the Lemond (100mm stem) and again a few weeks ago with a 90mm. The 80mm stem is by far the most comfortable position I've ever had with the bike. I still remember my fingers tingling on my first long ride with the bike. Perhaps...just perhaps Joe Average isn't as average as you may think.

BTW! what is your definition of a rec. cyclist? If I don't race then that means I don't ride fast, that I don't care about proper positioning or that I'm too weak to make any good of proper positioning.

EDIT: I just want add that with larger frames come longer chainstays, wheelbase, larger head tubes and a more upright postion. I feel noticeably more slippery on the smaller frame, it's not soley about the t-t length. I'm really suprised some of you agree with this whole moving the saddle forward thing!?

Last edited by FormerBMX'er; 06-08-06 at 05:06 AM.
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Old 06-07-06, 06:58 PM
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Hey FormerBMX'er,
I have a Lemond also and found I was streched out with the stock 120mm stem. I ended up with a 100mm Thompsom stem and swore that if I had to go smaller then I would buy a different bike. I believe Lemond bikes are a tough fit for a lot of people. If you have a long torso and short legs then the Lemond is the bike for you. I'm the opposite but was able to make mine fit. It was dicey for awhile though...
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Old 06-07-06, 07:01 PM
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I would consider a bad fitting one where a little trial and and error was not expected by the fitter and where communication on the fitter's part was poor and/or your feedback was ignored.

It's your body and your bike. The fitter can only take his/her best guess.
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Old 06-07-06, 07:11 PM
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Originally Posted by marqueemoon
I would consider a bad fitting one where a little trial and and error was not expected by the fitter and where communication on the fitter's part was poor and/or your feedback was ignored.

It's your body and your bike. The fitter can only take his/her best guess.
I was never fitted, that's how I got into this mess. They eyeballed me up and sent me out the door. I'm in part guilty for not doing enough homework and for not insisting on being fitted, but it was my first bike and I didn't know enough to ask, this was pre-BF.
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Old 06-07-06, 07:37 PM
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Originally Posted by FormerBMX'er
I was never fitted, that's the problem. I'm in part guilty for not doing enough homework and not insisting on being fitted, but it was my first bike and it was before I was a BF member.

I'm not saying this is true in your case but I think a lot of people approach buying a bike like buying a car. They act confident and put out the appearance that they know exactly what they want so as not to be upsold or suckered into buying bells and whistles they don't think they need. I think many salespeople would rather avoid a potential confrontation than have a customer walk away.

Riding a bike isn't cake either. A little discomfort is part of the deal. I think many noobs write off signs of problems that can do real damage in their excitement. In a perfect world the shop should be there to say "You seem a little stretched out on this frame. I have a 54 on order and it should be here and built up at the end of the week. I can give you a call when it's ready so you can try it.". In the real world of consumerism there is a little less patience on both sides.
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Old 06-07-06, 08:18 PM
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At the same time some places DO just try to put you on the bike they have in stock...
case and point I am looking for a new bike and was out testing last weekend, I tried a couple in one shop and one of the models I was interested in ('05 fuji Team) they only had in a 58cm (i'm 6'3") so I was pretty sure it would be too small, but they insisted I try it out. Upon returning I said I liked it and if they had a 61cm I would like to try it. I spend 10 minutes listening to promises of a stem change....before having to leave...
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Old 06-07-06, 08:36 PM
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Originally Posted by alanbikehouston
To a "princess and the pea" member of the pro peloton, a half inch difference in the distance between the rear of the saddle to the front of the stem is "life or death". To "Joe Average Cyclist" such differences are trivial. [...]
For the record, it is my belief that the opposite is true.

For a moderately fit recreational cyclist with less than optimal conditioning and flexibility, who has aspirations to achieve maximum speed and distance, fit is ABSOLUTELY CRITICAL.

For this princess, 2cm and a professional LBS fitting has made the difference between a pleasant experience or discomfort that results in a complete bailout from the sport...

Last edited by BeeTL; 06-08-06 at 01:01 PM.
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Old 06-08-06, 06:36 AM
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Anyone know if Specialized bikes have a long or average Top-Tube? I know they are sloping but don't know how that compares to traditional sizes
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Old 06-08-06, 07:36 AM
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Originally Posted by BeeTL
For a moderately fit recreational cyclist with less than optimal conditioning and flexibility, who has aspirations to achieve maximum speed and distance, fit is ABSOLUTELY CRITICAL.
I don't disagree, but I have a slightly different take on it. Novices are a real challenge to fit. From my personal experience, I was fit on the right bike frame. However, for the first year I had all kinds of fit issues because I was not in riding shape. I ran 50 miles per week before cycling so I wasn't out of shape as some. I had to learn to fit myself and change almost every fit variable. As I got into riding shape, I have now worked myself back into the original position that I was fitted for 2 years ago in the shop!

I guess the point is that salesmen need to let customers know that fit is subjective and just because this is the Lance Armstrong position doesn't mean you are going to be comfortable with it. Let the customer know that it will take time to dial in the fit and not to worry, it is a normal part of the sport and hobby.

Also, I think a copy of Peter White's fitting web site should be handed out with every new road bike. His description of bike fitting gave me the reassurance that I needed to make changes and enabled me to do so. I still refer to it often.

I think Alan has a valid point that if the bike was not set up like something in the Pro peleton, than .5 inches is no big deal. However, only one shop out of 5 around here gives the novice a road bike a more relaxed fit.
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Old 06-08-06, 10:47 AM
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I'm going out on a limb and assuming i know which shop you were in. (initials IBC?) and i have to say that that shop sucks...they exists solely to sell you a bike...any bike (I also heard from an boston bike industry insider that they pay their mechanics and sales people crap and had some of their larger contracts with bike manufacturers terminated due to unethical business practices).

ANyways, here's my experience: i am 5"7' arms a little longer than normal. i ride a 16-17" mtn bike, no question about it, been fitted at ace wheelworks, bought a frame through them (16.5), pretty much knew how a bike was supposed to feel. Said shop tried to insist that my bike size was a large 18" intense tracer (very nice bike, not my size). The guy would not shut up about how great the bike fit me. i said it didnt fit me and didnt feel right, he told me that full suspension bikes are supposed to feel larger than hardtails (also told me hardtails were pretty much useless on the trails around boston). When i finally insisted that the size was wrong and asked if they had the next smaller size he told me that they didnt have a smaller size in stock. then tried to tell me that a suspension seatpost on my existing bike would "simulate" what the intense felt like (WTF?) I left after that...
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