bbattle

Is the A & S forum offline?

Hambone

So, remove cars and motorized vehicles from the American scene and you folks think that there would be a road infrastructure of the quality we have today? One where our sleek road bikes would be the better choice?

C'mon. The automobile is what pays for the roads. Roads prior to the invention of the autmobile were few and far between. And few if any of the good/long ones were free.

(And paved roads go back at least to the Romans...)

recursive

Property taxes are what pay for most roads. It's true that gasoline taxes cover a portion as well, but motorized vehicles tend to do far more damage to roads than non-motorized vehicles because of their higher weight. If you removed motorized vehicles from the road, I suspect the decreased maintenance cost would more than offset the loss of gasoline taxes. Furthermore, not as many roads would be required, since bicycles inherently cause less congestion because they are smaller and slower.

As for the Romans, yes they had a lot of cool stuff, but as time passes, technology advances. All technology tends to improve, so it's not surprising that our roads are better than theirs. I know some of the advancement is directly or indirectly because of the ubiquity of cars, but I find it hard to believe that roads would not have improved without them. Over a long time scale, infrastructures tend to improve. Water, sewer, electricity, data, transportation, etc are all examples of this.

All of this is not to mention the benefit of not having to deal with cars while riding. If cars didn't exist, many roads would probably be much easier to use. In short, I would gladly make that trade.

SamHouston

I'm sure bicycles had some part to play in paved roads, but I personally believe that mud had a larger part to play. Mud stops horses and wagons, pedestrians & rickshaws, wheelbarrow and stagecoach. Heavily used unpaved roads became rivers, horses could be mired so deeply that they'd need to be dug out and took many men to rescue.

Improved transportation is the impetus for paving roads, not any particular mode of transport. Sure bicyclists had a hand in it, who didn't?

LABers don't be mad at me, thats just how it was. Railroads were used to haul large amounts of goods, but the railroads didn't pull up to your door, neither did bicyclists stock the general store. A large wagon brought you the goods.

If any thought paved roads were brought about by primarily by bicyclists, take it up with a Roman. Paved roads were brought everywhere by two things, Armies & Industry.

bouncybouncy

I have ridden this ride for almost two years until I moved to North Carolina and can tell you it is the most enjoyable and challenging road ride in South Florida. The group of bikes will travel the speed limit and cars will try to pass exceeding the speed limit which the cops do give tickets to the cars for this. On the short part of the road that does have bicycle lane the group is mostly at two abreast accept when passing each other. The rest of the road does not have a bicycle lane because it is not resurfaced. From what I understand the road it is not resurfaced there because the residence don't want the bicycle lane put in. This is an extremely wealthy neighborhood. I can recall many times where cars have swerved on purpose to try and hit a cyclist and sometimes they have, which is where I can see why someone would kick someone's car. The amazing thing is there are enough lights on this road that if a car should do this many of the times the cyclist will catch the car and exchange words. By the way for 34 miles this group will pretty much stay near 30mph the entire time. I will admit on occasion there is a cyclist that does not follow the rules and that does not help. Also there is no club as far as I know for this group ride. There are several different rides in the morning and afternoons during the week and weekend.

On a side note, since moving to North Carolina I have had none of these traffic problems and crazy conflicts.

Hambone

In the article you linked to it says, "Minnesota will spend about $3.6 billion this year on all state and local transportation projects. Roughly 1/3 of that, just over $1 billion, will be paid for by local revenue including property taxes."

In other words two thirds (66%) of the bill is from non-property tax revenue. Plus the article makes it clear that Minnesota is in a unique situation because they under financed up keep and now have a big tab.

You want to make the roads in Minnesota last? The best thing you could do isn't remove the cars from the roads, it would be remove the roads from Minnesota. I mean, negative twenty degrees is warm up there. And you Wisconsin folk. That is just as crazy.

merlinextraligh

Just got this email, which puts this thread in an interesting perspective:

Dear Friends:

I hope this e-mail finds you well and that you have been able to take advantage
of the great weather we have been having on the road.

I am writing to give you some good news, and to make a plea of sorts.

Last Thursday, June 1st, the Boca Raton Bicycle Club, as supported by the League
of American Bicyclists, won a major victory in the battle over bike lanes along
A1A. One of the major components of the suit that was filed was a demand that
FDOT file statutorily-mandated documents (known as "Design Exceptions") to
explain why they have chosen not to incorporate the statutorily required 4-5
foot bike lanes into the roadway, despite there being sufficient right of way.
FDOT agreed at that hearing that they would finally file design exceptions and
that the Plaintiffs (the Boca Raton Bicycle Club, the League of American
Bicyclists, and Highland Beach resident (and cyclists) Bruce Rosenzweig,
individually) would be permitted to challenge those design exceptions in an
administrative hearing.

We have become aware that, if left unsupervised, FDOT has a tendency to listen
to those who have influence (the beachfront homeowners) at the expense of those
whom they are entrusted to protect (the cyclists). Therefore, the cyclists have
had no choice but to turn to the court system to "babysit" FDOT to make sure
that the agency follows their own standards (which are nationally recognized)
regarding proper lane design and engineering.

We know you are tired of being a second-class citizen on the roadways, and the
LAB, BRBC, and Bruce Rosenzweig have finally said "enough is enough" and put
their money where their mouths are.

But this babysitting does not come without a price. The Plaintiffs have, to
date, shouldered the cost and expense of this oversight, and we are far from
done. And we all know that this case has statewide (and according to the LAB,
national) ramifications for future roadway design.

Thus, we are turning to you, our friends, and others in the cycling community
who have yet to be called upon, to get involved at this pivotal moment of this
fight to see that this mission continues to completion.

We are asking that you please take a moment and contribute whatever you can to
this cause. While we have won some battles to date, the war is far from over.
Though overall victory is within sight, we are concerned that, in the future, we
may have to pull back due to lack of funds.

Thus, please consider making a donation to the Boca Raton Bicycle Club in any
amount you deem appropriate. Checks, made payable to the Boca Raton Bicycle
Club, should be sent to: P.O. Box 810744, Boca Raton, FL 33481-0744. No amount
is too small!

All donations to the BRBC are tax deductible as the Club is registered as a
tax-exempt, 501(c)(3) organization with the IRS.

Please help us to ensure that A1A is safe for all cyclists now, in the near
future, and forever more.

And please do pass this e-mail onto to anyone and everyone who shares our
passion for livable and sustainable communities.

Best regards,

Jeffrey Lynne

Boca Raton Bicycle Club

It just may be that the post to which the OP refers was made by one of the property owners on the other side of the lawsuit. And since I have a vested interest in FDOT abiding by the statute regarding bicycle lanes, I'm going to contribute.

DonChuwish

LOL, don't get me wrong, I'm laughing at myself cuz as I read that the voice in my head was full on Cliff Claven. Just had that ring to it!

Paniolo

Unclear as to the facts of the road situation ... is it 4 lanes with 2 lanes for each direction of travel and the bikes are taking up both lanes? Or is it 2 lanes with one lane for each direction where there are portions with no bike lanes and the bikes are forced into the one lane of travel?

merlinextraligh

Not the first one to accuse me of that.. I should have started with "It's a little know fact..." Buy me a beer and I'll share some more wisdom with you.

A1A Rider

A1A here is 1 lane in each direction, with the occasional center turn lane