biker7

Some of you that read this will snicker a bit. Perhaps this has happened to you at some point. The following is not meant to be too serious but am interested in what you guys think. It goes like this.
I am an avid cyclist though advancing in years but don't look my age. There is a young hot shot at work that is a great guy from Europe who works out pretty religiously that is almost half my age. I have nick named him the "Matinee idol" because of his good looks and I have adopted the handle of "the Idol's father" since he reminds me a lot of myself when I was his age. He has a Scott road bike back in Germany however has not shipped it over to the US. At the gym he works out with his trainer...a girl he likes who rides mountain bikes for fitness...so he bought a nice Gary Fisher AL mountain bike...about $1K. We as a result will start to ride together out on the road...me on my Bianchi Veloce steelie road bike and he on his Gary Fisher. Well...the trash talk is heating up and getting around the small company where I work as to who can outride who on the road. As a result I have challenged him to a 6 mile bicycle race at a nearby park...around the lake on smooth pavement. I feel some confidence in that I have rarily...actually can't remember ever riding with a mountain biker on the road that I couldn't beat...climbing or in the flats. Now this "kid" is in good shape and strong and again I am an older guy that is in shape for my age. I have a lot of options for the race in terms of what approach I could take. I could try to bury him from the start but my thought is to likely pace him for the first 4 miles or so...take the speed up a bit in the fifth mile and then depending on how much is left more or less sprint the last mile at 25 mph or so thinking that he will have to be an extrodinary rider on a mountain bike to keep up at the speed.
What do you guys think? How should I handle it? Also, do you guys know anybody besides a champion racer on a mountain bike that can beat you on your road bike?
Again this is all in good fun but its gonna cost one of us some pride, a lunch and of course obligatory bragging rights.

George

Mothra

Heh, heh... testosterone feels good at any age, eh? I've had my @ss handed to me by plenty of MTBers. Your strategy will come down to the type of race format:

1. time-trial? or
2. no holds-barred, every man for himself, 1st one across the line wins?

I vote for #2. Then all you gotta do is draft off him the entire time, then sprint by him in the last 50m for the finish. Go do tonnes of sprint and interval workouts between now and then. Maybe 1-2 days strength-training in the gym as well. You might not be able to match his brawn, but you can beat him with brains... See if you can win the chic as part of the deal..

biker7

Ah oh...you have been beaten on the road by a mountain biker? Hmmm...maybe will be tougher then I thought.
I am more of a cardio guy then an out and out sprinter but have decent speed. The format will be no.2 as you put it...first man over the line....why I thought I would pace him...but want to wear him down a bit during the ride for the sprint at the end. The intangible is he may have great sprinting ability so I have to be careful about leaving it for the last 50 meters or so...why I thought I would start to up the speed in the 5th mile to see if I can pull him. I don't want to go anareobic too early though.
Keep the advice coming...hehe.
George

Eatadonut

I like your plan. It'll keep you from wasting energy, and remember his gearing - once you get to 25, he'll likely be out of top end, and no rider is going to hang on for too long when they have to spin 160rpm.

waterrockets 

I've kept up at 32+ mph in a pack on an MTB before (with knobbies). Drafting is an amazing thing, and even more so at higher speeds. You can just pedal in bursts. Stabbing at 160 RPM isn't so bad (I do that a lot off road on my SS too).

I think you should get going pretty fast in the last mile, then pull out and let him take over for a minute. In the meantime, drop back 3 or 4 bike lengths, sprint into his draft, and pass him doing 5mph faster than him. Maybe he'll think your tuckered out when you drop back a bit. No way he'll be able to hang. It will be even tough for him when he's out of contact on an MTB. You have to explode and surprise him though. Then just ride like you stole it.

biker7

Well I am glad I am not racing you as you I believe would dust me by the sounds of it. I am banking on the fact that this guy is about as strong a rider as myself in spite of our age difference and the difference will be the 2-3 mph resistance of him being on a mountain bike. I am about an A- rider...how I would rate myself. I can't beat the dedicated racers obviously but can outride weekend guys in their full kit costumes...well some of them anyway :-) So it will be a tacticle race for me at least in terms of my best options. I might take the race out pretty quick to wear him down or send a message that he is going to have to fight like hell to win. This maybe my best strategy to take advantage of my cardio as his young legs in the end may have the advantage if I wait right to the end.
Thanks for your advice,
George

rm -rf

44x11 at 100 rpm is 29.6 mph per Sheldon's calculator, so he can keep up for short distances.

If your road bike can get a jump at the start, to keep the mtb out of your draft, then you can stay aero in the drops most of the way and get a good advantage. Practice your standing starts. MTBs tend to bounce and soak up energy when pedaling standing up, it's better to spin instead. So I think you can accelerate away at the start of the race.

If you try to draft him, he can probably ride 2 mph, and force you to go past. Are the rules like track racing, where you can't put a foot down?

msheron

And you get what out of this? The girl! Or bragging rights? Either way, have a beer after and laugh about the race and if you can get a good feely hug from the girl he is trying to impress with his Gary Fisher.

biker7

Its all for fun honestly but make no mistake we are both competitive and neither wants to lose. As to the foot down rule...guess we could do that but...don't think that he nor myself will ever go that slow. As to having a beer afterwards...actually the bet is...lunch with a couple of interested co-workers...one a very hot lady that I kind of like ;-) Loser buys lunch.
Again in good fun. I am silently a very competitive guy and like to win. I think many on this board that ride hard for fitness are the same way. I believe he is the same way and will have a difficult time accepting that he got beat by a guy as old as his parents when he is right in his prime. So should be interesting....hehe.
George

Snuffleupagus

6 miles isn't too long at all...

You should be able to go out and practice some 10-15 minute all out efforts for the next few weeks, take a couple days of rest time, and just go out and hammer away from the start. A crushing defeat, not pulling out of a draft to take a sprint

biker7

Yup...a relatively short race. In spite of my age I may in fact do better in a long race. What I might do is happy medium. Warm up the first couple of miles at his speed then go to about 20 miles/hour for miles 3 and 4 and see if this pulls him with us both going in our own air...me down in the drops.
If he hangs then I can assess when I can try to increase the speed a bit. I do like the approach of hammering him from the start but my nature is to hang back a bit and let the other guy beat himself.
The reason why I posted this is many on here like myself like to mix it up on the bike path. A little story is...the other day I was putting in my miles and cruising about 17-18 mph coming back in on a popular bike path. A guy on a Bianchi fixie grabbed my back wheel and then accelerated to about 23-24 miles an hour I believe thinking he would drop me....and I stuck on his rear wheel for a while until he tired a bit. Then I got out in my own air and accelerated to 25-26 mph or so for the last mile and dropped him. I think my young friend is gonna have a hard way to go beating me on a mountain bike...only my opinion. Again there are many stronger riders then me on this board but I like my chances even with a strongish rider on a mountain bike based upon my experience.
What I am particularly interested in is...how would you guys wage the race? It seems by the feedback you are giving you would all do it a bit differently.
Thanks again,
George

40x14

Strategy: Start hard and fast to see if you can put a few hundred yards between you and him at the very start. This way he either a) can't draft you or b) has to burn a lot of energy to catch up. Road bikes are much more efficient sprinters than MTB. If you start in a big gear he'll have a hard time catching you.

Since no rider can dictate how the race plays out without knowing the ability or strategy of the other rider, have a fallback plan. If you either don't drop him (not so good) or if he catches up to you (better) then relax and still don't let him draft you much. If he does catch up to you he will hopefully be spent, then if you can draft him to keep his power output high - and thus save your own energy for the finish. Since he is much younger, it probably takes him less time to recover and if he recovers he'll be nearly good as new.

And whether you win or lose, have a good laugh about it. Either way you get to have lunch with good people.

DrPete 

+1, but I think The Jan summed it up best in these words of wisdom, when asked why HE turns such big gears:

"Because the cycling is pain. The cycling is soul crushing pain. The cycling is meant to make mothers weep, to make children scream, to crush the souls of the weak. The cycling is not spin class. Sure the Jan could ride a gear that is being the size of a tea cup, like Marinara Boy Basso, but the Jan is not here to dance. The Jan is here to reap."

I think he's saying you should sprint too...

DrPete

Mothra

Yeah, you need a sprint. There's no way you're gonna wear him out in 6-miles. So I think a bluff in the last couple miles can do it. In the last 2 miles, pick it up to 20mph for a couple minutes, then fake slightly heavy breathing and drop back. He'll think you've had it and will pick it up a little bit. Fall in behind him and relax and recover.

With just 0.5mile to go, fake a sprint around him, go 22-23mph and make it look like a 100% effort, rock your bike, breath hard, scream a little. But don't pass him completely so that he can draft you, make him accelerate next to you. When both of you gets up to 25mph, start breathing really realy hard with lots of suffering. Fake hitting max-HR and blowing up and gradually drop off... He'll pick it up and you fall into behind him. Keep up the heavy-breathing so he think's you're dying. But really, you're recovering in his draft.

You're only 0.25miles to go how, he'll see the finish and will try to hold 25-26mph all the way to the end.. sucker... Drop back 4-5 feet behind him with 75m to go. Accelerate in his draft to 32-35mph and pass him convincingly at the finish line.

jyossarian

Frame pump in his spokes?

You didn't mention if the mtb is rigid, hardtail or FS. If it's rigid or hardtail w/ suspension lockout and he shows up w/ slicks and clipless pedals, you may be in for a battle.

HillMut

I say bury him from the start. Don't waste time drafting him for such a short race , and don't let him get close enough to draft of you.

Mothra

Except that George doesn't have a sprint. And even if he did, I don't know of anyone that can do a 100% sprint for 6-miles. If he takes off at TT pace (around 85% max-HR) and try to last 6-miles, the MTB guy will just sprint at 100% for 3-5 seconds and latch onto his draft. If he takes off at 95% the MTB can still sprint 100% for 5-10 seconds and draft off him for the remaining 5.5 miles. This is what makes bike-racing so much fun, it's all strategy and tactics...

40x14

Six miles is a very short race. If he's with you at the end and he's not spent yet, he has a good chance at winning. It's up to you to make him work, of course you might have to work pretty hard to make him work harder than you.

Since it's just the two of you, if he is drafting you -- a tactic to use is to drift to the left and right side of the course while he's drafting. Nothing too sudden or squirrely at all [you don't want to cause an accident or be a poor sport!], but annoying enough to make him have to think about where he's going while riding behind you instead of simply enjoying the view and riding your skinny 130psi tire. It might annoy him enough to decide to pull out or pass. That's a common reaction among guys with less experience.

[Edit] Then again, it might be you drafting him I say the best tactic to use is to not come in second. When I suggested taking off right away, I meant after getting up to rolling speed maybe in the first 1/2 mile maybe sooner. You have to feel it out. If George can put a couple of hundred yards between it will take the youn guy a lot longer than 5-10 seconds to catch up.

good luck!

biker7

It all good boys...thanks for the good dialog. I went for my saturday ride today...perfect day and did 35 miles and was reminded I am not the fastest guy out there. Story goes...a guy well in front of me was cruising about 18 mph or so and so I decided to catch up to him and see if he wanted to up the ante which he did. I stuck on his rear wheel for about 10 miles and this guy could go all day at 20-22 into the wind. Not too bad to draft him so stood there and he didn't mind....nice guy. So we are cooking along pretty good and what had to be a racer came up on us about 26 mph and passed us pretty easily and so we accelerated and caught him but I lost the draft eventually and got dropped :-) These guys were strong riders. As to a sprint...I can get to 30 mph without draft...that is my maximum sprint. Not sure how I am going to play this. I am thinking after reading all the commentary to take it out hard...right off the bat...maybe up to 22 mph for the first two miles and send a message if not break his spirit a bit and get some distance on him. As to the pain commentary...great stuff...I will go deep in the well no question....if he beats me he will earn it...hehe. Why have him suck my rear wheel? Monitor how close he is getting and take it up a notch only when necessary. With the finish line near...sprint for all I am worth. Probably the best tactic. And yeah bike racing is somewhat tactical...as we each have different strengths.
George

Mothra

That's what makes it so much fun! It's like chess on wheels and the one with better sequence of tactics will win!

So what is this MTB guy gonna do when George takes off at 95% effort? Just sit there and watch him ride away? Wait until a hundred-yard gap is opened up before he moves? As soon as George's 3ft ahead, he's draftable and the guy's gonna slip in behind him. This is especially easy if the guy jumping isn't a sprinter (you can even catch him and draft without getting out of the saddle). Might be good to go watch some velodrome match-sprint racing to see 1-on-1 tactics. The draft is the single biggest factor in bike-racing, I just don't see how it can be ruled out in this case unless you format the race as individual time-trials.

George not having a sprint makes it even more difficult to start off fast and open up a gap. Imagine you're side by side with someone and the starter's gun goes off. One guy's a sprinter and the other guy not. Let's say you employ the jack-rabbit start with a 95% sprint to open up a gap. Who's more likely to open up a large gap, the sprinter or non-sprinter? A fast-start trying to open a gap is gonna work better for the sprinter-types.

There's four variables that's important to devising a strategy here and we only have one datapoint:

George's sprint = 30mph
George's TT speed at LT = ??? this is maximum speed he can hold for 6-miles non-stop
MTB's sprint = ???
MTB's TT speed at LT = ??? (related variable is TT-times for 6-miles for both)

Knowing those three missing variables would give us more data to better come up with a strategy.

I'd say that regardless of the strategy, now's a good time to get started with some strength-training in the gym and sprints & intervals on the bike right away!

biker7

hehehe...well we are likely going to race on Monday...so no time for training...lol. I can probably sustain 20-21 mph for 6 miles...a guess....take is out at 25 mph and back it off a bit. I think I can sustain 23 mph or so the last couple of miles. The course is a bit hilly and I climb pretty good. Honestly...I do like my chances against this guy on a mountain bike...it does have knobbies and a front fork suspension but his ability is unknown other then he is fit and light. I am hoping in spite of our age difference that we are close to the same as far as riding ability and the difference will be the bike.
George

DrPete 

Crush his soul, George. He is weak. And you will get the girl. When you win, just play it cool and and all will be well.

DrPete

merlinextraligh

A mountain bike with slick tires, ridden by a guy who knows enough to bend down, move his hands in, and get aero, is not very much slower than a road bike. So I wouldn't be too confident. The race is not to the young and the strong,however, its to the smart. Make him do all the work. Unless you're confident that you can solo off the front (and an early test effort should determine that) sit on his wheel until 200 meters and then drop him like a hot rock.

biker7

You guys are hilarious...this is great. That's what I am telling myself...he is weak . And I fully intend on crushing his soul in the vane of what Jan had to say about pain....I want it more...hehe.
So far...its take the first mile out easy or see how fast he wants to take it out...and then test him...accelerate to 23-25 mph and see if he can hang. If he can then I will try to draft him until the end and take no prisioners....hehe.
Thanks guys,
George
P.S. I will be sure to report back how I do against the Idol.

krazyderek

*sigh*.....