roadfix

I didn't see them listed on their web site but do these guys do track or fixed road frames as well?

iansir

As already mentioned, first weight would give it away.
And not to mention, its easy to tell a frame like Habanero by its welds. In steel construction junky welds aren't as strong - not sure how much this is true comparing these welds in ti, but I personally prefer the perfect looking welds. Look at the difference:
Habanero:

Moots:


I don't compare with modern Litespeed or even Merlin because they are made in the same factory and their welds dont look as nice as they always did - these frames are still great, they offer many impressive shaped tubes and etc to help with stiffness and aerodynamics. But ever since Merlin was bought by ABG (Litespeed), I don't think they have had the perfection of welds they were known for. Moots is my example because I think they are one of the (if not THE) best in that regard.

Anyhow, not saying the Habanero is a bad frame. In fact I'd be riding one if I didnt practically steal my Merlin off of ebay. I am saying it's easy enough to tell between a high and low end ti frame.

lrzipris

Mark Hickey, Habanero's owner, has a great reputation for integrity and quality among the aficionados in rec.bikes, where he is a regular contributor, and occaionally posts about the expertise and background of his Chinese supplier's welders. Several experienced cyclists I know ride Habaneros and love them, both for their looks and ride quality. I don't like Mark's politics, but I'd trust him about cycling matters.

HAMMER MAN

really interesting perspectives and yes there is a difference in the welds between the merlin and the habanero, personally that is really just asthetics, i will do some more comparisions and talk to someone @ habanero on Monday. ride quality I think would be a tough call on telling the difference, but I do not know that 100 %. If Waterford made a titanium frame I would already be owening and riding one.
I had also contacted serotta and will wait for an e-mail from them or will call them also

thanks for everyones input.

HAMMER MAN

Please Explain his politics, that could be interesting for my own information and concerns.

H1449-6

Not impossible. Most any framebuilder will make you one. And charge you $100-350 for it.

MillCreek

I have often wondered about the varying degrees of smoothness and finish that you see on welds of all frame materials: some of them look like a bad caulking job while some of them are so smooth that the joints look like one piece. Since I know nothing of welding, does the degree of smoothness and finish correlate with strength or durability of the weld, or is it just esthetics?

My Motobecane and Specialized have nice enough welds, but nothing at all like the welds on my Indy Fab titanium. Disregarding that two frames are aluminum and the other titanium, is the weld quality of any practical difference as long as there are no voids, skips or the like?

johnny99

Mostly aesthetics. Most of the smooth looking welds have just filed down excess material after the joint cools. This has no effect on strength.

The main issue is that cheaper welds (workers with poor skills or spending less time) often make up for a sloppier job by using heavier weight tubing. This makes your frame heavier and less resiliant. The really lightweight tube sets require more skill and time to weld properly.

iansir

Its not always just what the welds look out on the outside. In structural engineering, welds often need to be x-ray verified. What I hope is that nice looking welds on the outside means the frame builder took their time and made nice, high quality welds. There is no doubt that better welds are stronger, but what we're discussing is more of a better vs best welds thing. I would doubt that a Habanero frame would ever fail, but I really dig the perfect looking welds

Dead Roman

While those welds are larger than the moots welds I can attest to thier strength. I welded a rollcage for a chili bowl midget car out of titanium tubing. The moots welds are smaller and a bit tidier, but welds are like signatures, every guy does it different.

ViperZ

I personally like the welds to be a bit more unfinished, the Moots, while pretty, is really stripped of the welder's signature craft, and has been taken over by the person filing the welds smooth.

In the end I think it's funny how snobby cyclist can get over brand names. The Habanero would serve any rider well, be it straight gauge, quad butted, or welded on Pluto by a Jupitarian

Funny how we chant the mantra "Its the engine not the machine that matters" when it comes to high/low dollar bike comparisons, but when small details such as in this thread are presented, there erupts a World of difference between the subtleties.

If you like an ultra expensive brand name(s), fine, nothing wrong with that, however to just state one performs way better, or is of higher quality than then other, makes me wonder what is the quantifiable metric that makes it so?

Personally I think given simular materials, geometry and components, the differences are a lot smaller then we would like to believe, but that takes all the fun out of it doesn't it? It's just a small part of the equation, rather it's the sum of all the parts that will determine how the bike will perform.

Disclaimer, I could just be a Raging Maroon baboon too....

rruff

Butting is great if you need thicker tubing at the welds... but a waste if you don't. One great thing about Ti is that you really don't need butting... not even for a light bike. Heck, even the Ghisallo isn't butted... or at least they don't mention it:
https://www.litespeed.com/bikes/2006/road/ghi_tech.aspx

There isn't anything wrong with the lighter butted tubing that some frames use, but the lighter you go the flexier it will be. 3-3.5 lbs is good for a TI frame... or an aluminum or carbon one for that matter. If you go lighter the cost*flex*fragility factor goes way up.

Patriot

My TST frame is not butted and it has beautiful beaded welds, and weighs in at 17lbs. All in all, I have about $2200 invested with all brand new Chorus components. That's about the same price as a name brand frame.

https://www.bikeforums.net/road-cycling/185895-pics-lots-pics.html


Concerning welds. Believe it or not, a nice beaded weld with some moderate girth will actually be stronger than the minimal welds of the Moots. However, the weld must be done properly. As with Titanium, in order to get a decent weld with any Ti, the purging and temp be must very precise. With the fine welds of a Moots, your strength will be more than adequate for the thickness of tubing used. However, using the same purging and temperature standards, and with the thicker beads used on the TST frames, your welded joint will actually end up stronger than the tubing itself. It is not as invisible as the Moots, but is actually a stronger joint. I asked TST about this a while ago, and also talked to a welder friend of mine here at work, and they agree. If the same standards are used, a thicker properly beaded weld, is a far stronger weld.

blandin

Also a TST owner and a big fan of their quality. I got my frame from their former frame engineer and learned a lot about the company. The following excerpt is from their website and the picture is the bottom bracket area on my frame - which is also my avitar.

TiSport's weld quality is unsurpassed in the industry. Each TiSport welder is required to pass college courses and rigorous in-house training and tests before being allowed to weld on any product. Root passes are done on every weld before the final pass and as many as three weld passes are used on certain critical joints. Tubes are mitered prior to welding so precise that no visible gap is present before welding. The attention to detail in our weld procedure and our unique, proprietary weld fixtures ensure the finest quality welds possible.

HAMMER MAN

nice looking ti bikes, checking out their site the stealth is the only model they make in the road line
do they all come with the sloping top tube ?

Patriot

^^^ The new Stealth model on TST's website does have more compact geometry with a sloping top tube. They did this to lower the weight of the frame, and stiffen it up for racing. The older version of this same frame is what I used for my bike. It is slightly heavier, by a couple ounces, and also extremely stiff. However, the older version had a level top tube with traditional geometry, which I personally prefer, so it was a benny for me to find my frame on a closeout sale before the new model came out.

This is my frame. Same as the Stealth, only traditional geometry.

https://www.bikeforums.net/showthread.php?t=185895

blandin

The current, and only, TST frame is the Stealth with a sloping top tube. The frames that Patriot, myself and some other forum members have are older models with a traditional top tube. I think you'll find that we are all happy with the product, and I am certain their newest offering is bound to be great.

MillCreek

The welds on the TiSport shown above look a lot like the ones on my Indy Fab titanium Crown Jewel. They also do the mitering, tack welding and jig setup prior to the final welding.

HAMMER MAN

I had already checked it out and sent you an E-mail with some genral questions.
by the way OUTSTANDING Graphics and head badge on your bike

HAMMER MAN

thank you for your reply. I am really impressed and do not see much difference in the welds between serotta, litespeed, and other ti sites.

Are these basically stocked frames or do they custom make a bike for you.
I did not see this on their site, not that it would make any big difference

pelotonracer

I absolutely, positively guarantee that the Ghisallo is octuple-butted. The fact that you need a 400mm seatpost helps too.

Patriot

I have heard of some people getting a custom size made for them by TST, but it was only locals living in Kennewicke who actually went to the plant and new someone who could have it done for htem. Generally, you just order the size that is best for you, then adjust your geometry with seatpost, stem and bars, etc. All of my bikes are off the shelf stocked frames, and they're all setup with the same geometry, even though none of the frames are exactly the same size. The stems and posts do that for me.

mayukawa

Moots welds are nice, but I always wonder if those welds will still be as nice if they've to start welding together non-round tubings that other companies use. Does Moots even have the capabilities to manipulate tubes? I also love nice welds, but for me it's always function over form. As for the double-butting, there's no noticeable difference in ride quality (if you design in sufficient margins), but it would save you 1/3~1/2 pounds typically.

rruff

Strange that they don't mention it... how do you know?

Serpico

dude, wtf--the mongoose frame is just the same

bro just slap some titanium tubes together, what's the big deal