bfloyd

Hello all. I have this hill just around the corner from my house that I like to do hill repeats on. I don't know the grade percentage of it but only that it is a 1.5 minute climb standing or a 2 minute climb seated. If I'm standing I can push a 42 x 19 and seated a 42 x 21, both with my heart rate at max when I reach the top. I do the repeats as once reaching the top, turn around, coast to the bottom and then spin to a turn around point that gives me a 3 ~ 4 minute recovery until going back up again. My question is would this type of hill benefit me more as a standing climb, say for a sprint workout, or a seated climb? What are the different benefits from standing vs. seated climbs? Thanks.

munkyv22

Yes.

There are benefits to climbing in the saddle and out of it. Most long term climbing is in the saddle with occasional standing to use different muscles / open the chest up more for air.

As for sprinting? Not really. Sprinting and standing climb are different animals.

bbattle

I would think that for sprints, doing intervals until you keel over would be good. Intervals wouldn't be bad for your hill climbing, either.

A thought just popped into my head. If on the last lap of a pursuit race before the second guy can pass, is it legal for the front guy to pedal backwards and force the second guy to do the same? I know they can trackstand and stare at each other, waiting for someone to fall, cramp up, get nervous and jump, etc.

terrymorse 

Did somebody mention a hill?

Standing climbing drills are good for your out of the saddle climbing form. Since you don't climb standing that often, you're better off doing most of your climbing drills seated.

Intervals are just plain good, although a 3-4 minute recovery is kind of long for a 2-minute effort.

blue_nose

Your 1-2 minute intervals are pretty short and being done at high intensity,. Essentially, you are training to recover quickly from a sprint and attacking a small hill. I agree with Terry, for these shorter intervals you should work on getting your recovery down to the 2 minutes it takes to climb the hill.

If you are looking into improving your climbing, you would benefit form climbing longer hills. Find a hill that takes 10 minutes to climb and then you work on different aspects of your climbing. During these intervals, you could ride some at a higher cadence, ride some one or two gears higher than you normally would ride, standing / sitting drills and the like.

waterrockets 

I often do repeats on a similar length hill. I've gotten a lot of benefit by doing what I loosely call "negative repeats." I'll set out to do five repeats, such that each one is faster than the previous. You have to go out pretty moderate on your first one, then gradually pick it up for the remaining climbs. Go all-out on the last one.

If you go positive on one, don't try to make up the time on the next one. Just reset your target so you're negative from that point on.

Once you can consistently keep the negative splits, start trying to tighten the spread (so all five are within 20s of each other, but still negative).

This will teach you a lot about how you pace yourself, what to make of various sensations, and what the implications are of hitting "the wall." Once you get your timespread tightened up, you'll discover riding negative splits is faster than any other approach to five climbs.

Chances are that your workout quality will go up as well. If you normally do one "warmup" at say 85%, then go for a PR on the next one, the last three repeats are pretty much a joke. The quality goes out the window once you've gone too deep. Staying negative keeps the workout focused.

Standing/sitting: standing drills are good (try them negative too). Try mixing it up and standing on the steeper sections or when the wind picks up.

Scorer75

Excuse me, I ride in Long Island, what's a hill???

Seriously, for those who don't live near hills, how can we simulate hills on flat ground?

RB1-luvr

when i was racing i practiced shifting to a harder gear as i neared the top of the hill i was repeating. in competitive group rides and races, that really messes with people's heads. no one expects a person to shift to a harder gear and excellerate at the top 1/3 of a hill. try it.

botto 

Eddy B's advice: 53x12/13/14 into a headwind

Scorer75

Ouch!!!

timmhaan

eventually you'll learn to master the 2 mintue hill but as your fitness improves you may get bored with it or have to do so many repeats on it to get a good workout.

here is a suggestion to make it harder (if you need to): do a long ride and then tack on a few hill repeats at the end. i read that ivan basso would do a 90-100 mile ride and then do climbing excerises at the end. you have to ask yourself 'what would basso do?'.

another thing to do is approach the hill at an already high heart rate. if you have a decent approach start pedaling until you're above your LT level and then hit the climb. it should make you cry for your mother.

Little Darwin

I think you are talking about track sprints not pursuits. If you are in a pursuit and the competitor gets close enough that anything you do matters, then go ahead and try to stay ahead, but tactics are not very relevant beyond riding as hard as you can to keep from being passed. Being passed marks the end of a pursuit race.

In a sprint, from my understanding (as an observer only, not a participant) the first lap must be at least walking pace, second lap you can stop, but I think you are only allowed enough backward motion to maintain your track stand.

Also, the lead out rider is not obligated to lead at any point, but must maintain a minimum pace. In contrast to your question the second rider is free to pass at any time, and then has the burden of keeping at least the minimum pace as I recall.

So, I don't know if my understanding of your question is right, because I know of no type of racing where someone must wait until a particular point in the race to pass, other than to do it safely. However, in the races where track stands are part of the strategy, no you can not ride backwards.

bfloyd

The thing is that in my area there are no lengthy hills. All the hills are the shorter steeper type with the longest about a 3 minute climb. I am looking for the best way to climb these to be able to drop the group during those fun yet competive group rides, thus the question of standing vs. seated. I have used the seated 2/3 the way up and then shifting to a higher gear and attack the last third. Usually it works . . .

bfloyd

Thanks. I thought the climbing while standing used the same muscles as sprinting. No?

munkyv22

Not really. Because on a climb, you are more leaned back (due to the angle of the hill) and your hand position. A standing climb should be on the hoods, a good sprint should be standing, but still on the drops. Also, your cadence in a sprint will go WAY up, while even a standing uphill climb, the cadence is much lower. I just finished a century this weekend. 102.8 miles 20 of those were in the mountains. My average cadence for the overall ride was 72. When I am riding flat ground, my average cadence is about 100. In a sprint sometimes I hit 140.

I forget who said it, but it was something like: "If you want to become a good climber, climb. If you want to be a good sprinter, sprint."

timmhaan

agree. the best climbers are often the poorest sprinters and vice versa.

shawneebiker

Unless your name is Valverde!

Starclimber

If you want to work on your sprint on this hill, climb it a bit slower and then big ring it near the top and give it everything you've got. Alternatively, find a less steep hill that's roughly sprint length, say 200 metres or so. Hammer up that in successively bigger gears.

Eureka

Have you tried Avery out of Huntington? 25A/Moores Hill or Snake Hill out of Cold Spring Harbor? Or the one I hate most, Mill Hill out of Oyster Bay?

bfloyd

Thanks for the clarification.

toneb

Tell me about it, I just started road cycling and on the flats I keep up with the most of the riding groups that I've gone out with but this weekend I got dropped like a hot potatoe near snake hill rd. I've finally realized I need training on climbing, sucks cause the whole ride I was right there up until the hill. I must be doing something wrong cause I cant be that weak. worst part about it there was a girl on the pack and she was kicking ass! Well there is always next week.

munkyv22

Girls can be great climbers. Especially the smaller / lighter ones. Climbing is all about power/weight.

All of the great climbers have two things in common. They are very skinny and they have huge quads.

waterrockets 

Yeah, back when Vaughters rode for Saturn (pre-pro days), I trained with him a couple of times, and I could outsprint him with one leg back in my first season (I've always been a sprinter). He weighed like 135 lbs, and could climb like a bird though. At that time (1992?), he had set the world record for highest wattage of power output for Kg of body mass.

zimbo

They don't all have huge quads and they're not all abnormally skinny. But they all have a great power-to-weight ratio.

--Steve

FIVE ONE SIX

LMAO! i don't know where on LI you ride, but i also ride on LI and there ARE some hilly rides, if you want to ride them. i'm sure that they're not as challenging as some hilly rides that some other riders here encounter, but that's not to say that there aren't any...

also, don't forget about the 4 mile loop at Suny Old Westbury that's NOTHING BUT ROLLING HILLS, loop that 7 or 8 times and get back to me...