froze

Merck, that computer comparison was not even close to reality. The reality is a computer after about 5 years may have to be replace because Microshaft has changed their windows os program so much by than that no software will work on it and the system bogs down unless you step up. I used a 286 computer for 14 years! But a bike is suppose to be about simplicity and reliablity and you should not have to buy a new one every 5 years.

My bike is 18 years old with some of the parts as old as 23, and I ride it almost everyday. Sheldon Brown rides on a (steel) bike made in 1918!!!! I think the biking industry is pulling a fast one on all of us by trying to get us to buy new stuff every 5 years by having this stuff wear out. It's the same thing the computer industry has been doing to us, the car industry, and the electronics industry. My first VCR lasted 15 years and was never cleaned or repaired! the second one lasted 4 years and was repaired and cleaned 4 times, the last one lasted 1 1/2 years but only cost me $80 compared with the first one costing $500 and the second costed $225. Most industry today have seemly a 5 year window where after that they want you to throw it away and buy another. After all, keeping us broke trying to buy stuff new again feeds the economy which in turns makes corporations RICH, especially if they have this junk built in China. Conspiracy? no, just intellegence at work trying to figure out ways for us to spend money, so we have to think intellegent enough to attempt to overcome this problem.

I for one, cannot afford a new bike every 5 years or so, thus a steel or TI framed bike would make sense too me. If I raced and had sponsers throwing bikes at me, I would not care, but I don't so I do care.

TimB

we also have to look into the economics of thematerials industry.
Yes most aluminim bikes are overbuilt to achive a certain lifespan buthtis is an average value. Some will wear the frameout faster than others. The point is we'rent dealing with that here because it is subjective. The point is which material is more suitable and why.

Most bike companies arebuildoing in Aluminium because there is an over supplyof the material due tot he downturn in the Aviation industry over the last 10yrs. This has also affected the carbon fibre manufacturers although to sucha great extent.
Frame builders can now obtain high grade aluminium at low prices due to the over supply. Hence the sudden 'Discovery' of aluminium as a viable frame material.

In the aviation industry each component is built to a very high factor of safety. also the type of structure in use are very different tot a bike frame.Aircraftare typically built from aluminium honeycomb laminated with ultra thin aluminium sheet. These structures are designed very carefully to deflect with in allowable limits and the stress in each component is carefully controlled.

With Al bikes frames not nearly as much desing goesintot he structure but then it'snot necessary. Bikes don't fly so if it break s the furthest the rider will fall is the height of the bike.

We have to be very careful when drawing parallels between high tech industries like aircraft manufacture and Bicycles.
Most of the brochures talk about a new proprietry alloy designed specifically for that bike. This is laughable because the tooling and process costs to make a tube specifically for one bike is horrendous, running into 10's of millions of DollarsUS. Whatframe manufacturer do is mix and match various tubes from the tube manufactures range to obtain a certain feel for the bike.

Strip away the marketing hype and you're left with a tubular structure, either welded or glued together. What determines that structures strength?
The manufacturer will have you believe that it is the Italian craftsman who painstakingly welded the frame over a period of 10 years because he exactingly applied the weld material 1 micron at a time to achieve unparalleled quality.
The buzz words are painstakingly, 10yrs (time= quality), 1 micron (tight tolerance= high quality), Unparalleled (no-one does it).

At the end of the day these are the main criteria anyone looking for a bike should be concerned with.

Tubing manufacturer
design of frame
frame manufacturer experience with the material
material

Under any circumstance, Titanium and steel frames will outlast aluminium and carbon. This is why most Pro's own steel or Ti bikes to train on. ey can put plenty of mileage on these frames without feeling fatigued yr after yr.

They may race on Carbon and Aluminium but that does not make the material the best for the application, even if the marketer say it is.

Fatigue strength, UTS and design and then proper manufacture will determine how long a frame will last.
Lastly, how often you ride it and treat it will also determine it's life.

shokhead

Hs anyone answered spinner1 question?Will steel corrode?Of course it will just like your car.Has my car corroded,no because i take care of it and your steel bike wont either if you take care of it.Wheelsets,lots out there.The shour answer is,the more you spend,the better and light they will be.I guess if they are areo,that makes them a little stronger?I am looking at steel bikes and i noticed thats where they get cheep.Also they will throw in a cheap cassette if you notice.Is this how it goes for a comfy ride,taller head tube,shorter seat tube,longer wheelbase,longer chainstays all on a steel bike=a nice ride?

ParamountScapin 

Shokhead - Steel bikes are more comfortable due to the material used. It is more compliant and provides better damping to vibration. Like steel used in certain other applications, it just happens to have the right "mix" of properties to provide a superior ride. The cheap items you list are the same cheap items they would throw in on any less expensive bike. Have to pull the cost out somewhere and these are easy items to do it with. As far as geometry goes, unless you are talking compact frames, the geometry between titanium and steel, for instance, is remarkably the same. I haven't compared to aluminum and graphite so don't know about them. But longer wheelbase and chainstays will result in a nicer ride, regardless of the material. Can't comment on the headtube, but a shorter seat-tube would be stiffer and give a less comfy ride. That is one reason why 51 cm frames and smaller are so stiff.

late

Hi,
I think Froze got it right. Life expectancy for a bike should be measured in decades, not years. My first bike was a hand me down Columbia that my uncle
had ridden in the 1940's. I was not it's last rider. It's hysterical that bicycles built 40 to 50 to SIXTY years ago still have more life left in them than many currently sitting on bike shop floors. Why on EARTH would anyone buy a bike every few years? Buy one good one.

spinner1

thank you Shokhead and Paramountscapin. . since i ride a size 52 frame, it would make sense that that could be a contributing factor to the rigidity of the ride. i am trying to do some research before i go test ride steel bikes. thank you also for answering my inquiry regarding the corrosion issue.

i definitely got my question answered. and then some!!

thank you to all of you, such an interesting thread. i learned a ton more than i thought i would.

Merckxrider

[QUOTE]Originally posted by froze
"Merckx, that computer comparison was not even close to reality."

Froze, I'm not sure what you're talking about. You end up making the exact point that I suggested...that many of today's industries, i.e. electronics & bicycles seem to be taking the "throw away item" approach. And I completely agree that we shouldn't have to toss a frame in the trash after 5 years. If this is the case with my new Merckx, then I'll go back to steel. But, for the time being, this new scandium frame is outperforming my old steel one (circa 1986) in every capacity, especially in the hill climbs! Now, the weather is finally gettin' nice here in the big apple, so I think it's time for me to shut up and ride! Catch you guys later.

Steve

froze

Mercks; I think we agree on the durablity issue; and AL frames have saturated the market because they can use recycled AL which is far cheaper than virgin AL, it takes less qualified people to work with it thus less labor cost, and place like China can make this stuff even more cheaper. The bulk of the AL frames on the market today come out of China where the labor is .32 cents an hour and where robots do most of the welding; the frame tubes are placed in a jig and zap-the whole frame is done in less than 2 minutes. Where is the craftsman ship?

But read the VeloNews Buyers Guide page 42.

By the way Mercks, VeloNews did say that Scandium is stronger than any other AL.

ParamountScapin 

spinner1 - after all this posting back and forth you have to let us all know what you buy. Whatever you get, have fun! Now off to my Sunday morning club ride (40-45 miles). Sunny, 60 degrees (just about perfect) and 10 mph breeze. Should be a good one. Enjoy!

shokhead

I'm lookn for steel to so here a list so far,Scattante R853,LeMond Zurich,Buenos Aires,Alpe D' Huez,Fuji Roubaix pro,Marin Verona,Cervelo Prodigy,Jamis Eclipse,KHS Flite 800.Most are under $2000 but the ones that are not,well if i choose that one i would have to find a deal.Right now i am leaning towards the LeMonds but still looking.I did find the fuji for $895 and that one hell of a deal for a really nice bike.What do you think of a 650 on the front and a 700 on back.

slide13

I think a 650c front and 700c rear wheel is a really bad idea! What happens when you want to upgrade your wheelset to something nicer? I've never seen a wheelset with different sized wheels in it so it would be really hard to do. Out of the bikes you listed I would go with the Lemond for sure. I ride a Buenos Aires and have been really happy with the bike. It may be a little more $ then some of the other brands you listed, but worth it IMO.

spinner1

i looked at the Roubaix Pro, but the one that i am concentrating on is the Fuji Marseille. the tube structure is much smaller than my current bike, and it is lighter. i will definitely check out the others you have listed. thanks

Paramountscapin: i will definitely let you know what i get. have a great ride today. i went out between rain showers here. it was delightful. such a mood enhancer.

shokhead

I just went and looked at the buenos aires and it was nice but a different colror then blue and yellow but he said it was a 03.$1495 for the double and $30 more for the triple.I wish i knew the weight.

slide13

What color was it? The 03 is the blue one. I have an 02 which is red. I can't remember what the weight on it was when it was stock, sorry. The frame weight is 3.7lbs for a 55cm frame. I think it was around 21.5 lbs for the complete bike in a 57cm as new, but I don't know that for sure. Not bad for a steel bike with relatively heavy wheels (like everything in that price range) but not a real lightweight either. I have mine down to just a tick over 20.5lbs now.

shokhead

There's some light steels out there,KHS Flite 800-18.1 pounds,Fuji Roubaix Pro-19.7 pounds,Jamis Eclipse-17.5 pounds,scattante R853-20 pounds.

spinner1

i say go for the double.

i'm sorry, but did you say the buenos is a Lemond? or is it just called Buenos Aires? not familiar with it.:confused:

shokhead

LeMond

ParamountScapin 

According to my LBS, who sells them, Lemond is probably the most popular steel bike made today. And for good reason. It is an excellent bicycle. He said that he has sold a bunch over the past several years and has never had a disatisfied customer. And I see plenty of them on the road. All the particulars for Lemond's bikes are on their website. Dimensions and weight and gear, etc.

As for weight, my 54cm '87 Paramount with a Record triple 10-speed gruppo, Ksyrium Elite wheels/tires, carbon fork, bars, seat, post, etc. set up to ride, weighed in at 20.3 pounds without bottle cages. My new 54cm Scapin frame weighed 3.14 pounds on the same scale. Will have the same equipe on the Scapin as the Paramount, so I will report back on Tuesday the weight on the Scapin when built up. Should be an interesting comparison (at least for me). How much weight loss technology have we gained in 16 years? And, will my new TIG rig ride as well as my old lugged rig? Did 37 miles this morning with my local club at about 17.5 mph and was as comfy as could be from start to finish.

shokhead

I've been on lemond website and no weights just like most of the sites.I have the lemond icycle catalog,no weights.I just went to get 2 tires and they said specialized just came out with to columbus foco air-hardened steel bikes,allez comp cr-mo and the allez elite cr-mo.

TimB

Get the LeMond, it's truelly a great handling bike.


On the topic of Scandium, I see that the myth that Scandium is stronger is thrown around quite liberally. Unfortunately Scandoium is not stronger than other aluminium alloys.

Scandium's advantage lies in the elements ability to prevent recrystallisation of the grain structure after welding. Heat cuases the grain size of aluminium to increase ( a bad thing). Scandium helps to control this. Smaller grains = smaller grain boundries, which helps prevent cracking of the material at the weld joint.

In essence al the SAcandium does is improve the fatigue life of the alloy, especially at the weld joint.


PSS: Buy the Lemond

slide13

Our shop does well with the Lemonds as well. Never an unhappy customer and never had a frame or fork come back. It's a college town and a couple of the frats do a cross country bike ride to raise money for a charity and they almost always buy Lemonds from us for the ride. The frames are excellent quality steel at a great price. They don't have the cool factor of a Steelman or Independent Fabrications steel frame of course, but they are still really nicely done and much more affordable.

ohsfan

Any idea on the weights of the Lemond Zurich or BA? If not, would you mind weighing 'em at your shop?

Seems like there's a lot of inquiring minds!
Thanks.

slide13

Actually right now we don't have either bike in stock. We are sold out of the Lemonds currently. I can see if either of our other two stores has any. I'll let you know.

ohsfan

That'd be great! I have my eye on both models!

ParamountScapin 

Dropped by my LBS today at lunch. They have several Lemonds in stock. He weighed a 55cm Alpe d'Huez on his digital scale and it came in at exactly 22 pounds. This is with a full 105 gruppo, Tiara hubs and Bontrager rims. This bike is "ready to ride" and included pedals. My 54cm '87 Paramount, lugged Columbus SLX tubing, with a full Campy Record 10-speed, Look carbon fork, Ksyrium Elite wheels with Pro Kevlar tires weighs 20.3 pounds. If my gear were switched over to the Lemond my guess is that it would weigh almost exactly 20 pounds or a couple of ounces less.

If anyone is looking for a 59cm bike, they also have a leftover '02 Alpe d'Huez with a full Ultegra group for $1299, which sounds like a good deal.