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  1. #1
    ride, paint, ride simplify's Avatar
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    Dave Moulton injured, bike accident with an SUV

    Here's Dave's blog, with description of the accident and other details. You can leave get well comments, too!

    http://davesbikeblog.blogspot.com/

    He's going to be okay, but this is frightening and so ironic, because it happened the very day that he last posted at the end of this thread about the anti-cyclist blogger: What scares me more than reckless drivers?
    No car. No TV. Three bikes.

  2. #2
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    I wish for Mr. Moulton's rapid and complete recovery.

    Though I wish that he'd have stayed away from the idiotic idea of pushing helmets on people some more.

    Curious that he didn't try to educate people on how he was injurred and what he could have done to avoid it. Instead he seems to try to dodge the question of fault completely.

    Of course it doesn't matter who is at fault when a cyclist is injured but the fact remains that you have about half the chance of being injured or killed on your bicycle as you do in your car and no one tells you that you should be wearing a helmet in your car where more than half of the fatalities are still from simple head injuries of the sort a helmet would mediate.

    That implies that some 20,000 people each year could be saved from fatal head injury if they wore a bicycle-type of helmet while driving their automobiles. This as compared to only some 650 cyclists being killed each year and only a tiny percentage of them could be saved by a helmet since almost ALL of the road accidents to cyclist are multiple fatal injuries. It doesn't matter much what sort of shape your head is in if your neck is broken, your internal organs mashed into hamburger and your blood drained from your body.

    Now, wear a helmet if you like, it probably doesn't hurt anything, but it is FAR more important to learn how to behave on the road, to pressure the legislature to pass laws to not just promote but to FORCE safer driving of motor vehicles and to make everyone more aware that the roads are for everyone and not just the monied few.

  3. #3
    RacingBear UmneyDurak's Avatar
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    Wow thats exactly how I got hit. Only the car hit me. Also about that anti-cyclist blog thats exactly what some random ****** was screaming at me while he stopped blocking traffic, before threatening to run me over if I get in front of his car again. All with his 10 year old niece seating in the passenger seat.
    I see hills.... Bring them on!!!
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  4. #4
    ride, paint, ride simplify's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by cyclintom
    Though I wish that he'd have stayed away from the idiotic idea of pushing helmets on people some more.

    Curious that he didn't try to educate people on how he was injurred and what he could have done to avoid it. Instead he seems to try to dodge the question of fault completely.
    I don't think you read very carefully what he wrote. The point that he made very clearly is that he had the right of way, and the vehicle turned in front of him. The point is that we cannot control the outcome of every chance encounter when we're out there. We cannot prevent a vehicle driver from making a terrible mistake. Mr. Moulton's description underlines this fact. I would call that very educational.

    If you don't want to wear a helmet, don't wear one. But please stop criticising people who encourage others to protect themselves.
    No car. No TV. Three bikes.

  5. #5
    DocRay
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    Quote Originally Posted by cyclintom
    I wish for Mr. Moulton's rapid and complete recovery.

    Though I wish that he'd have stayed away from the idiotic idea of pushing helmets on people some more. blah blah blah
    You've obviously been in a few crashes without a helmet.

  6. #6
    DocRay
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    Quote Originally Posted by lawkd
    I don't think you read very carefully what he wrote. ..

    If you don't want to wear a helmet, don't wear one. But please stop criticising people who encourage others to protect themselves.
    He never reads anything. This is one BF member who really has nothing to lose by not wearing a helmet. Let's just hope he doesn't have kids.

  7. #7
    Senior Member Nachoman's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by cyclintom
    Though I wish that he'd have stayed away from the idiotic idea of pushing helmets on people some more.
    Wow. That's all I can say. Wow.
    .
    .

    Two wheels good. Four wheels bad.

  8. #8
    Senior Member zonatandem's Avatar
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    Cyclintom:
    How many miles have you ridden?
    How many times you've been hit by a car (your fault or car driver)?
    Do you have good health insurance?
    Are you an organ donor?
    Whether you want to wear a helmet or not, is none of my business . . .

    I've bicycled over a quarter million miles (am only 74 years old now).
    Been hit 3 times by car/truck (each time driver was ticketed).
    Fortunately I've got good health insurance as one of the driver's did not have insurance at all.
    And, by choice, I do wear a helmet and am also an organ donor.

    . . . and, most of all, we wish Dave a speedy recovery!!!

  9. #9
    Senior Member 55/Rad's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by cyclintom
    Of course it doesn't matter who is at fault when a cyclist is injured but the fact remains that you have about half the chance of being injured or killed on your bicycle as you do in your car...
    Interesting claim. Can you substantiate this? I'm interested in interpreting the language of this myself. Is it based on sheer number of accidents or actual case by case studies?

  10. #10
    Dirt-riding heretic DrPete's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by cyclintom
    Though I wish that he'd have stayed away from the idiotic idea of pushing helmets on people some more.
    Quote Originally Posted by David Moulton
    I was out riding on Tuesday, when an SUV coming in the opposite direction turned left on front of me. I had the wind behind me and was going at a pretty good lick; there was no time to react and I slammed straight into the side the vehicle...
    The driver of the SUV was cited to appear in court for failure to yield.
    It was a direct blow to the head. Can't ever say if it saved his life, but it certainly dissipated the force of the impact at least a little in this case, as evidenced by the trashed helmet. There's no question. It certainly didn't hurt him.

    I wish Dave a speedy recovery, and volunteer cyclintom for the study where his unhelmeted head is exposed to the same force, just to see what happens.
    Last edited by DrPete; 12-10-06 at 05:54 PM.
    "Unless he was racing there was no way he could match my speed."

  11. #11
    Dirt-riding heretic DrPete's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by 55/Rad
    Interesting claim. Can you substantiate this? I'm interested in interpreting the language of this myself. Is it based on sheer number of accidents or actual case by case studies?
    Of course not, Rad. Typical cyclintom babble, with the added bonus of taking up space in a thread about someone's crash.
    "Unless he was racing there was no way he could match my speed."

  12. #12
    Senior Member
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    the problem is people don't think cyclist have any rights on the road. a woman last week told me to grow up and stop riding my bike. drivers think they own the road. we just gota be carefull out there.
    fogriderlooking for sun

  13. #13
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    Quote Originally Posted by DrPete
    It was a direct blow to the head. Can't ever say if it saved his life, but it certainly dissipated the force of the impact at least a little in this case, as evidenced by the trashed helmet. There's no question. It certainly didn't hurt him.

    I wish Dave a speedy recovery, and volunteer cyclintom for the study where his unhelmeted head is exposed to the same force, just to see what happens.
    just look at that helmet! I had a crash about 13 years back that with similar damage to my helmet. if I did not have a helmet, and I survived, it would have involved a long stay in the hospital with a good chance of brain damage and a long period of rehab. wear a helmet if you have something to live for.
    fogriderlooking for sun

  14. #14
    Dirt-riding heretic DrPete's Avatar
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    Don't get me wrong--I do recommend helmets to anyone I see who is a cyclist. But I also encourage them to take some of the local "how to ride" classes, because safe riding is more than just wearing a helmet.
    "Unless he was racing there was no way he could match my speed."

  15. #15
    Blue Straggler Starclimber's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by DrPete

    I wish Dave a speedy recovery, and volunteer cyclintom for the study where his unhelmeted head is exposed to the same force, just to see what happens.
    "just to see what happens"

    If this should come to pass, I foresee a decline in anti-helmet postings.

    Nostardamus

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  16. #16
    Senior Member DannoXYZ's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by 55/Rad
    Quote Originally Posted by cyclintom
    Of course it doesn't matter who is at fault when a cyclist is injured but the fact remains that you have about half the chance of being injured or killed on your bicycle as you do in your car...
    Interesting claim. Can you substantiate this? I'm interested in interpreting the language of this myself. Is it based on sheer number of accidents or actual case by case studies?
    yeah, I'd like to see some references for that. From what I can gather from the Bureau of Transportation Statistics data:

    42,643 total traffic fatalities in 2003
    622 cyclists killed

    What we're missing is miles-per-person per year on cars vs. cyclists. Then we can correlate that with the fatality numbers to really know the relative risk of driving vs. biking.


    anyway, wishing you the best Dave, get well soon.

  17. #17
    Emondafied cydewaze's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by cyclintom
    and no one tells you that you should be wearing a helmet in your car where more than half of the fatalities are still from simple head injuries of the sort a helmet would mediate.
    Hopefully you're kidding.

    A passenger car is designed to perform a certain way in a crash with a non-helmeted driver. By introducing a helmet into the equation, you're throwing an unknown variable into the mix.

    Also, a helmet can ubstruct your ability to turn your head and see around you, in addition to making it harder to hear things.

    Sorry man, I know you're not a fan of helmets, but cars and bikes aren't the same thing.

  18. #18
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    Quote Originally Posted by lawkd
    I don't think you read very carefully what he wrote. The point that he made very clearly is that he had the right of way, and the vehicle turned in front of him. The point is that we cannot control the outcome of every chance encounter when we're out there. We cannot prevent a vehicle driver from making a terrible mistake. Mr. Moulton's description underlines this fact. I would call that very educational.
    And yet in the last two weeks I've yelled at a half dozen high mileage cyclists who were doing stupid things that could have gotten them injured - such as passing to the right of a vehicle which was mysteriously slowing down while approaching a driveway and that sort of thing.

    So, while you can't control the OUTCOME of every chance encounter you can reduce that number of "chance encounters" greatly by being alert and having trained yourself to think about what the traffic around you is actually doing and not who has right-of-way.

    Again let me repeat - most serious and fatal bicycle accidents have SERIOUS injuries FAR beyond the head injuries. Bicycle fatalities and serious injuries are so few that an emergency room seldom sees more than one or two A YEAR so it is difficult to research. To underscore this you need only realize that there are some 700 fatalities and some 2,500 serious injuries (a serious injury is one that requires a visit to an emergency room) each year. In the USA there are over 30,000 Emergency Rooms. Of course in metropolitan areas you can expect a correspondingly higher number of bicycle injuries but the percentage is tiny compared to other cases. So tiny that bicycle injuries aren't even listed on the top 20 reasons for visits to an ER.

    But I managed to get correspondence with several ER doctors (fellow cyclists so they had an interest) on this subject and one of them did some serious research into the limit number of cases he could find.

    He said that in all of the fatal cases there were multiple fatal injuries. That shouldn't be of any surprise when you're comparing a 200 lb bicycle and rider combination against a 4,000 lb SUV and driver combination at 30 mph - the usual speed of collision in fatal accidents.

    You might argue that there is a range of injuries from just a fall with only a bit of road rash all the way to fatal injuries in a smooth curve.

    But again that isn't the case. 90%+ injuries are cases in which the cyclist was not involved with any motor vehicles or the vehicle itself stopped before the collision. Apparently the cyclist ran into the motor vehicle.

    And in these accidents the injuries are usually very minor up to broken limbs and such. Generally the rider if capable of protecting his own head.

    Then there is a large jump in accident severity when motor vehicles do not stop and generally do not even see the bicycle. Would you be surprised to discover that the majority of bicycle fatalities occur at night and that alcohol is involved as often by the rider and by the driver?

    So, there are amazingly few "just short of fatal that a helmet would help" types of injuries.

    And because bicycle injuries are so few, statistical analysis leaves a lot to be desired and you simply cannot take anything such analyses have to say with any confidence.

    If there wasn't so much push to PROVE that helmets prevent fatal injuries perhaps one day we might be able to prove that they actually help in minor accidents. But that is something that no one will fund as long as the argument is set to such rediculous standards.

    And even that has questionable worth - for instance, if you are saving .01% of riders a bump on the head or some roadrash on your scalp, is it worth your spending a billion dollars a year trying to promote bicycle helmet use?

    What we definitely have proof of is that when you promote helmet use you are essentially promoting the idea that bicycling is a dangerous sport that requires body armor. This discourages bicycling entirely and the numbers from areas in which mandatory helmet laws were introduced show that plainly.

    Does the tiny offset in injuries when wearing a helmet make up for the dramatic drop in public health when so many riders stop riding and its concommitant exercise? Certainly that is the position of several studies in Australia, New Zealand and Great Britain that found a disconnect between public health and helmet policy.

    In any case we need to worry a great deal MORE about educating people in the proper attention to riding details before worrying that a 1" thick 11 ounce piece of foamed plastic is going to save someone's life when they take one chance too many.

    This is NOT an anti-helmet posting - it is a PRO-EDUCATION posting. I am against the stand that promoting helmets is more important than promoting proper and careful riding.

  19. #19
    DocRay
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    Quote Originally Posted by cyclintom

    But I managed to get correspondence with several ER doctors (fellow cyclists so they had an interest) on this subject and one of them did some serious research into the limit number of cases he could find...
    Back to this BS...you fabricate all your stories and statistics.
    Let's make this clear. I'm calling you a liar.

  20. #20
    Senior Member Nessism's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by cyclintom
    This is NOT an anti-helmet posting - it is a PRO-EDUCATION posting. I am against the stand that promoting helmets is more important than promoting proper and careful riding.
    You may have a point but what does this have to do with Dave's accident?

    Simple fact is that Dave's helmet saved him from greater harm than what would have occured otherwise. Period. Get a helmet and wear it. That's Dave's point. What's the downside?
    Becareful buying/selling bike parts on-line. I learned the hard way. :(

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  21. #21
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    Quote Originally Posted by cydewaze
    Hopefully you're kidding.

    A passenger car is designed to perform a certain way in a crash with a non-helmeted driver. By introducing a helmet into the equation, you're throwing an unknown variable into the mix.

    Also, a helmet can ubstruct your ability to turn your head and see around you, in addition to making it harder to hear things.
    Although I can't find it now, one of the public safety MD's in Great Britain has been trying to promote wearing bicycle type (actually they're more the skateboarding kind of helmet) use in automobiles.

    He has been working pretty hard at trying to get a real study on it and he claims that he is presently wearing a helmet whenever he drives.

    Among his points:

    1) Because of the airbags, seatbelts and safety construction, most of the fatalities in car accidents are now simple head injuries with no other serious injuries.

    2) The sheer numbers of motor vehicle related head injuries are so great that even small percentage of improvement would be a significant contribution to saving tax monies which presently go to support the families of the victims.

    Now, I happen to agree with you that helmets are likely to cause more problems than they solve, but err, isn't that the identical point with bicycle helmets?

    http://bicycleuniverse.info/eqp/helmets-nyt.html

    "The number of head injuries sustained in bicycle accidents has increased 10 percent since 1991, even as helmet use has risen sharply, according to figures compiled by the Consumer Product Safety Commission. With ridership declining over the same period, the rate of head injuries among bicyclists has increased 51 percent even as the use of bicycle helmets has become widespread."

  22. #22
    Senior Member
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    Quote Originally Posted by DocRay
    Back to this BS...you fabricate all your stories and statistics.
    Let's make this clear. I'm calling you a liar.
    Then by all means tell us what you actually know about the subject.

  23. #23
    DocRay
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    thankfully,there are some texans who know something about cycling safety.


  24. #24
    Pretty Hate Machine Weeks's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by fogrider
    the problem is people don't think cyclist have any rights on the road. a woman last week told me to grow up and stop riding my bike. drivers think they own the road. we just gota be carefull out there.
    what's hilarious to me about this is most of the bicyclists (real, avid, card-carrying ocp road cyclists) that i know are past 30, making about 10 times what i do in a year, with nice expensive cars, large attractive houses, children in school, working at hospitals, executives of corporations, mba's, etc etc...
    and yet there's still the impression of punk kids riding bikes???

    the first thing i think when i see a roadie is 'upper middle class'

  25. #25
    Dirt-riding heretic DrPete's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by cyclintom
    "The number of head injuries sustained in bicycle accidents has increased 10 percent since 1991, even as helmet use has risen sharply, according to figures compiled by the Consumer Product Safety Commission. With ridership declining over the same period, the rate of head injuries among bicyclists has increased 51 percent even as the use of bicycle helmets has become widespread."
    Once again, wearing the blinders. So there's been an increase in severe head injuries, probably owing to more cyclists getting hit by cars. One could infer from that that there's been an increase in the type of injuries that helmets are not designed to protect against. Where in that pretty quote does it say that helmets are a bad thing? Also, are the cyclists who have increased numbers of head injuries the ones who are wearing helmets? Hmm... guess it doesn't say, does it?

    I have yet to read in any of your posts that Mr. Moulton would be better off without a helmet. Why, pray tell, might that be? Why haven't you volunteered to expose your unhelmeted head to the same impact as Dave Moulton's?

    Yes, there are other things to learn about safe riding than wearing a helmet. This is a known fact. Your smoke-and-mirrors argument about helmets fails to draw anyone's attention to that.
    "Unless he was racing there was no way he could match my speed."

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