ratebeer

This is what a SoftRide looks like. A bit tough to be impaled on one.



FYI, I haven't raced recently (in a sanctioned mass start race) but I did race in college at the University of California, San Diego. And of course I've been in high speed wrecks and have witnessed others first hand.

I'm not sure why you sound so upset and irrational. Do you sell drop bars?

ratebeer

I guess we'll never know in the age of USCF/UCI.

baconandraisins

Bike couriers are a bad example if you want to poo-poo drop bars as a fashion statement. They pick flats and bullhorns because they're cool, not because of performance benefits. It's the same reason they don't have brakes or freewheels/hubs-- it's part of the image, not a performance issue.

Speaking of races for money meaning that drops disappear, I was watching some draft-legal tri championship on TV a few weeks ago, and I saw that all the riders were using drops with clip-on aerobars. I think it was the world cup in Mooloolaba getting replayed. Why use drops as opposed to straight aerobars, unless it was for better control in a tight group? They only hit the aerobars when on the front or trying to bridge or break.

Edit: Looked up ITU world-cup rules because this was bugging me, and the ITU mandates drops in draft-legal races. The Luddites are multiplying...

ratebeer

Soooo... If these folks racing for cash prizes don't choose drops then it's fashion. If they do choose drops then it's functional. Do I have your argument right?

This isn't compelling evidence. The old fashioned drops you saw them using are mandated for these races by the triathlon governing body.

ratebeer

Burger King offers many options. The best restaurant in town offers fewer.

I like sitting on one saddle. You might have two, three or four saddles mounted on your bike but that's not necessarily an improvement. If I have antlers mounted to my stem I would have many, many options. Providing options, even unnecessary ones, is wonderful for sales, but not all options translate to real utility.

Again riders with real freedom of choice, such as triathletes, even on long courses with extensive climbing, rarely choose traditional drop bars. Why is that? Remove the mandate and fashion and reason and better design are allowed to emerge.

LWaB

Randonneurs aren't restricted very much at all (somebody did the 2003 PBP on a scooter!) and they overwhelmingly pick drop bars. PBP doesn't allow aero bars but all other 1200km events do. Flat bars are used by a lot less than 10% of riders. How does that fit in with your position ratebeer?

cyclezen

normally I would just wade in and call drivel like this just plain horse****. But I;ve also learned that the clueless are clueless.
UCI has deemed to legislate the max amount of 'drop' a toptube can be dropped from the horizontal plane, so that means 1) There needs to be a top tube, no single carbon /tube/beam 2) limits the amount of 'compacting' that goes on to any top tube. So, Softride is not UCI legal, and even though USCF doesn't need to comply on local level events, it does on regional and national level, ergo no bikes like the softride or ZIPP. Why UCI decided to 'excommunicate' anything other than the std triangle, is a question for those into bike politics and the money trail. TRI doesn't have that hangup, they'll go with the best tech available to anyone, good on them.
Softrides sprint, ride and descend as well as any other bike, really depends on the pilot. Now I'm not much of a sprinter anymore, but I can go downhill reasonably. I'm willin to demonstrate Softride descending (on my antique) for anyone who wishes to come along on a run down Gibraltar, Old San MArcos or Buena Vista.
Now the 1st and 2nd Generation Beams were a chunk, can't say if later versions were improved in weight.
Is there an 'advantage' to softrides within the modern context? Prolly only from a 'comfort' viewpoint.
Given some 'support' from the bike racing community, development would have continued where more advantage might have been forged. But in the current state, its just another branch that has stopped developing and will disappear into the 'vintage' arena.
Even so, they make fine, almost plush riding bikes and in many cases offer more performance than the pilot/motor can handle.
Thread shows a lot of great imagination - Speared by the beam - WTF?
If anyone has ever ridden one, no defense is needed. For some it may not be their 'Cuppa'. But there are more ways to skin a cat than a Madone or Cervelo. As 'me too!' as the cycling scene can be, calling bull**** on drivel is a healthy thing.

Duke of Kent

Having seen one of those beams broken before, I can say with certainty that should it have met flesh at high speed, it would have pierced said flesh with an efficiency the Romans would have admired.

Duke of Kent

You failed to address the fact that you were clueless about the 4k pursuit. Why?

ratebeer

If you're meaning that because linear proximity to other riders is different than lateral proximity, that's hardly a strong argument. Good team pursuit riders require excellent lateral control to stay in line with other team riders. They do so with "pursuit bars" -- not drop bars.

I'm picking the stronger more interesting arguments, not all arguments. It was clear the person who mentioned this, don't know if it was you off hand, wasn't presenting a strong case.

ratebeer

As would a broken double triangle frame.

ratebeer

Radonneuring is non-competitive by definition and design, so performance does not drive equipment selection as much as comfort. This is different than the team pursuit, triathlon or even bike messengering.

ratebeer

It's a common human cognitive error: to take the way things are and assume and contrive a logic to support them.

This and threads like this clearly illustrate that convention doesn't only make for thinking errors among the intellectually challenged, but also provides a foundation for fanatical support among those who closely associate their identity with the convention.

Say what you will about the man, but George W. Bush's 2004 campaign brilliantly exploited the same popular cognitive deficits. Using "identity marketing" tactics, Bush was able to forgo any real stand on popular (and unpopular) issues by employing brand identification with positive icons of popular middle America -- country music, Jesus Christ and NASCAR. Little in the way of reason was needed to support the man. You just needed to be a red-blooded, heterosexual who liked to kick some caboose.

It's very similar to this discussion. You could have a UCI-mandated bicycle made of wood, cabbage and leather and the same people would be speaking up about why these bikes illustrate the best possible of all imaginable designs and why a bike made of carbon fiber is inherently dangerous and unsuitable to the rigors of road racing. In a certain way, it's wonderful to see.

LWaB

True but I think the sub-50 hour finishers are looking for performance. In any case, isn't comfort one of the claimed advantages of beam designs?

In the world of ultra-marathon cycling (RAAM, etc) there was a fad for beam bikes a decade or more ago but that seems to have died down to a fairly small percentage of riders.

bassplayinbiker

+1

it would suck to crash behind the guy on the soft ride.

Duke of Kent

Not really. The only thing that they have to do is swing off on the banking, and let their position and speed be modulated and controlled by the approach they took and the angle of the banking. There is some fine tuning obviously, but it's far more a matter of experience with the action than it is type of bars that they use.

You're trying to state that there is a problem for which pursuit bars are the best solution. I'm simply saying that the problem, as you state it, doesn't exist. They are more aero, simple as that. They do not offer more control.

halfspeed

There's another human cognitive error: to discover something outside the convention that works very well for one's own circumstances and immediately presume that were it not for mass ignorance and injustice it would be immediately accepted as the One True Way perfect for all circumstances. It's why one finds such fanatical support of products like aerobars, recumbents and Apple computers.

Fortunately, the options that drop bars provide =do= translate to real utility for the vast majority of their users on properly fitted bikes.

Quite frankly, I don't give a rat's hindquarters what tri guys use for maximum performance since I'm not one and I'm not bound by any need to find the most constant, most aerodynamic position. In that sense, I have even more freedom of choice and I choose drops.

Do you really imagine you are the only person in this discussion that has ever tried something other than drop bars?

ratebeer

No one ever said pursuit bars offered greater control. No one ever said that pursuit bars were the best product for everyone. Correct?

I've been saying that despite drop bars being mandated by several international racing governing bodies, they have never been proven to be more safe or offer greater control that any other style bar. Mandating drop bars then is irrational and unnecessary.

The Mac metaphor is interesting and useful.

If someone governing body mandated PCs despite Macs offering good alternatives to some or most people then mot people would call that a problem.

halfspeed

Actually, it happens all the time. The governing body is called "the corporate IT department" and there are often good reasons for this (mostly revolving around support costs).

In any case, I don't think anyone has argued that racing bodies' mandates are to ensure that everyone has the fastest, most efficient, HPV available. It's to ensure a relatively consistent equipment platform so that it's the racers, not the equipment that determine the winner. This is also a major reason behind doping restrictions.

It used to be less controlled. There was a time when Greg Lemond's aerobars, and the unusual TT creations ridden by Indurain could provide a significant technological advantage, but that was reigned in precisely for the reasons above.

It's not just bicycle racing bodies that tightly control the equipment platforms. Every major auto racing circuit also has limits on things like body type, horsepower and fuel types.

rooftest

Softride descending - On a straight hill, there's no problem - throw in some 40 mph corners, and the softride just can't hang with the pack.

It's cool that you like your bike enough to lie about it, though.

cyclezen

I think its important to differentiate between Fanatiscism and valid support. 'bent' riders have every right to hilight the advantages in the face of cycling's unilateral 'me-too' ism. Same can be said for those who choose aero bars, drop bars, Fridays and yes, softrides. There are no all encompassing solutions, just what you might like and might work best for your needs/desires.
On one hand, to claim something you have no direct knowledge of, as with many of the claims here about doom and death on a softride, is crap, and needs counterpoint. Same as it would be for many other implemented ideas. ON the other hand to have a major cycling organization (the UCI) legislate down the 'window' of possible new development can only be seen as following the money. New ideas should bear the weight of proving both safety and durability. But legislating anything out of hand is, again, crap.
Brings to mind many years ago how skiers and the skiing establishment made serious fun of those few kooks slidin down hills on them there 'surf' boards. Whose laughin now?
Choice is good, discussion is great, talkin outta the side of your ass, being clueless, is wack. (not directed at you personally, just the general 'earth is flat' posters here)

Psydotek

If i can find a Softride Rocket/Classic/TT/Qualifier/Powerwing in size M, i just might make it my next bike...

Hocam

All of your examples require 0 pack riding and no distances longer than 1-2 hours at a time before the rider gets off the bike (couriers included).

Drop bars offer more than 2-3 hand positions to make longer distances more comfortable, unlike pursuit/TT bars, bullhorns, risers, etc. When you're drafting or climbing, it's nice to be able to put your hands on the tops and have a more upright position for better breathing and to relax your core. Cruising along on the hoods is also nice for moderate speeds, higher speeds your hands are in the bends in the drops. Then for the sprint you use the flats of the drops. Between those positions there are intermediate hand positions, like on the curve after the flats but before the hoods.

Some would argue for a 6th hand position where your palms are on top of the points of shimano shift levers.

Try riding a 200k stage race on bullhorns sometime and see how your back feels.

slushlover2

Where did you get the information that Softrides are unstable downhill? I have had my Powerwing at speeds in excess of 50 MPH and it is rock solid.

wanders