bjkeen

I think a lot depends on the shop.

anecdote, blah blah blah warning, whatever:

I bought a '06 R700 with Shimano R5?0 wheelset from a LBS near to where I lived. Before the 1 year warrantee on the wheels was up, a front hub cone pitted in one spot. Obviously some sort of manufacturing defect. Only 700 or so miles, never ridden in the wet. I noticed roughness, took the hub apart, went into the shop to get the cone, just the cone, replaced. I was willing to handle the rest, I mean, just get me a lousy $5 cone, under warrantee, and I was willing to wait a week or two. I had my receipt and everything.

They tried to convince me that a pit on the cone after 700 miles (I mean, look at the Park Tool picture of a worn cone, it was like that in a spot, visible to the naked eye) was 'normal wear' and that it would 'even out' if I repacked it. I said um, I totally disagree, so does Calvin, so does Forester, so does Jobst, so does Sheldon, and so do me, who be asking of you something that takes less meat out of your hide than even a free tune-up. But what would a new cone cost, considering I bought the bike there and I just want the cone, no install, and I never darken your door again. (This whole thing was the FIRST time I'd bothered them since initially buying the bike, btw.) They said that it would cost me $20 to get a new cone. I said 'give me my wheel back.' I found Shimano's warrantee system online, called 'em up, got an RMA, sent the cone back, and got a whole new axle and two cones for nothing in under a week from sending mine in.

Now, obviously I don't shop there anymore, and I think three things more are obvious:
* I woulda done no worse buying online or outta a van, or even less so, because there woulda been no 'tude
* Bikewise's shop, and the shop where I buy now, wouldn't have done me like that
* YMMV.

Pugsly

You have obviously not had to use paypal dispute resolution. It sucks in a huge way.

For instance, if the seller can prove to paypal that they shipped something to you... anything at all, even a box of air... the seller will win. And there is no appeal...

Psimet2001 

There's your problem.

Brian

Exactly.

garysol1 

I am fighting that exact battle right now...

RockyMtnMerlin

This is a real question - Were these purchases from sellers with high feedback ratings? I've only bought about 15 things on ebay - all from sellers with at least 99% positive ratings - and I have had no problems. Again a real question - have I just been lucky?

Brian

I have been screwed by sellers with ratings in the thousands. But what number feedback is considered safe now? Is 100 the new 20?

RockyMtnMerlin

Okay: Now I have to ask another question. You said you have been screwed by "sellers." Why did you continue to use PayPal after the first instance of fraud?

Brian

Two years ago, a girl at work needed a DVD. I found one on ebay for her, and paid for it. Seller never shipped, never responded. Paypal ruled in my favor, but you can't spend an email, which is all I got out of the deal.

Last year, I bought something described as new. When it arrived, the inside box was damaged, and the item was working, but obviously a lightly damaged return. Seller offered to refund full cost of the item ($20) less the cost of shipping, which he charged me $14 for. Assuming an actual cost of $10 for postage, I would have been out a total of $24 on a $20 item. Paypal's stance - he offered me a refund, what more do I want? No mention of the fraudulent description.

The last item was quite recent. I ordered a "NEW" GPS unit for my motorcyle. 10 days after paying, no package, no response to my emails. Filed a claim, and suddenly the seller sends me an email advising me that he'll ship it right away. He also told me how selfish I was, since he's in the National Guard, and got called away for a week. How dare I put my interests before that of our country's security?! Lame excuse. If you're going to run a business, you need to plan better, and have a backup. Anyway, he provided Paypal with a tracking number, so they closed my claim. I got a GPS unit without a box, and the battery life is very short. Again, I suspect that it was a return, but I can do nothing.

So now, I have a strict policy of getting more info from the seller before sending money, checking feedback even more thoroughly, and not buying anything mechanical, or more than $20. I have bought some goods recently, but I never pay more than I can afford to lose. And I will no longer trust ebay, or Paypal to offer me, as the buyer, any kind of purchase protection.

1554

I never said OScommerce wasn't a great way to go. I think that using it without changing ANY of the default settings is cheesy and looks like a scam because no time at all has been put into the site. I absolutely would not and did not cut down any retailer for using OS commerce.

As for having parts in stock, many retailers do not stock all parts listed and they also do not say that they do. Bike cost advertises that they have parts in stock when they do not and cannot possibly. That is dishonest. The undisputable fact that bike cost is a liar 3 times over should make anyone nervous because as anyone knows, it's impossible to tell only one lie. In fact, they are involved with at least one other lie that I can think of--they are selling product originally obtained for resale by an authorized dealer. That dealer has signed a dealer agreement with many vendors--including Mavic and Trek/Bontrager. Those companies promised to sell their products at wholesale price and the dealer promised not to dump product to a third party and they broke that promise. Perhaps you don't attach any meaning to a signature or a promise but I sure do.

You are correct that it is quite possible to find out who they are and where they are located but why not advertise this info without forcing a customer to enter checkout? I would think that they would want that info out in the open so that they could make more sales.

It is quite irrelevant whether or not I'm a retailer. I could be a spaceman, a giant cookie or a top hat. The facts are the same. Oh and 1559 is not random, it is the name of my favorite beer from New Belgium--it's actually 1554 but i forgot!

Brian

Fixed.

Pugsly

Because I now pay paypal with a credit card. paypal may not help me with any problems, but my credit card will.

Too many sellers use paypal as a conduit for me to not use paypal. I just don't count on them for any protection or assistance.

BrianA

Calling someone a liar three times over is strong medicine--John Wayne used to shoot people for saying it only once. Then, when someone points out that a couple of the things you said have been proven wrong (you cant' find their address or phone number), you still call them a liar three times over. AT first, I thought maybe you were just misinformed, but since you deliberatly libel them even when you are proven wrong about location disclosure, that makes me thing that YOU are the one that is deliberately lying, and this merely to protect your monopoly over retail sales of the wheels. So in the interest of full disclosure, why don't you state clearly on this forum the name and address of your bike shop? If you deny you have one or work for a brick-and-mortar shop, then we'll know who the liar is. And if you won't disclose where you are, then we'll know that BikeCost.com is doing something for customers that you are not. Not revealing an inherent conflict of interest (you make money selling the wheels for a higher price) is itself a form of business deception.

I'm one of those people you seem to think do not exist, a satisfied customer who bought a wheelset from BikeCost.com. I did do some research before I made the purchase, and called them on the phone, where they returned my call within one hour. I can't remember who I spoke to, but he seemed to know more about wheels and about how to race them in different conditions than most bike shops in my area. He was also very honest about was and what wasn't in stock and exactly how long it would to ship, four days in my case. It arrived on time in the manfacturers own box with a warranty certificate; since I ordered tubulars, it was obvious the wheels had never been used, no glue.

Not everyone has to ship the same day to be "honest"--even Amazon.com takes 2-3 days to ship some products listed as "in stock." How can you know the actual physical status of BikeCost.com's inventory if you have not placed an order as I have? You call someone a liar and yet what you really have is your OPINION, and no real facts to support your wild accusations.

As for manufactures and their contracts, what does that mean to me, the bike rider? Do I ride my bike so that manufacurers and shop owners can get rich, or do I want to get great wheels at the lowest cost? Can you demonstrate the BikeCost.com has broken any laws? I thought we lived in a free-market capitalistic country where a willing seller and buyer could negotiate a price using their free will, as long as it is a legal product purchased in accordance with the law.

This same argument have been made against Wal-Mart, Amazon.com, and just about every internet retailer, screamed from the rooftops by smaller shops that want to sell at a higher margin. There is room for both types of marketers, and I still go to the bike store for smaller or specialty items. Sometimes they even lower their price because I tell them it's cheaper on the internet, whispering "don't tell anyone we did this."

By the way, I had my brother, who is a software engineer at a fortune 100 company, to examine the source code of the one of the listing pages at BikeCost.com. He said he could find at least five places where they inserted their own customized code in the osCommerce template. He also said the someone would need to be fluent in PHP (I don't know what this is, but he does) to be able to accomplish this. So I guess "cheesy" is when you don't like the layout of someone's page. Again, what does this have to do with riding a bike? Do I want them to have a website like CNN or spend time learning about bike components?

All I can say is, why are you trying to ruin my buzz riding my great wheels? Why are trying to keep other people from having fun riding their bike without going broke? Do you really think that one internet site is going to put your bike shop out of business? Again, please tell us where it is--someone might even buy something from you because they feel sorry for you!

brians647

Quote:

Originally Posted by BrianA

Calling someone a liar three times over is strong medicine--John Wayne used to shoot people for saying it only once. Then, when someone points out that a couple of the things you said have been proven wrong (you cant' find their address or phone number), you still call them a liar three times over. AT first, I thought maybe you were just misinformed, but since you deliberatly libel them even when you are proven wrong about location disclosure, that makes me thing that YOU are the one that is deliberately lying, and this merely to protect your monopoly over retail sales of the wheels. So in the interest of full disclosure, why don't you state clearly on this forum the name and address of your bike shop? If you deny you have one or work for a brick-and-mortar shop, then we'll know who the liar is. And if you won't disclose where you are, then we'll know that BikeCost.com is doing something for customers that you are not. Not revealing an inherent conflict of interest (you make money selling the wheels for a higher price) is itself a form of business deception.

I'm one of those people you seem to think do not exist, a satisfied customer who bought a wheelset from BikeCost.com.Nice shill there, dude. I did do some research before I made the purchase, and called them on the phone, where they returned my call within one hour. I can't remember who I spoke to, but he seemed to know more about wheels and about how to race them in different conditions than most bike shops in my area. He was also very honest about was and what wasn't in stock and exactly how long it would to ship, four days in my case. It arrived on time in the manfacturers own box with a warranty certificate; since I ordered tubulars, it was obvious the wheels had never been used, no glue.

Not everyone has to ship the same day to be "honest"--even Amazon.com takes 2-3 days to ship some products listed as "in stock." How can you know the actual physical status of BikeCost.com's inventory if you have not placed an order as I have? You call someone a liar and yet what you really have is your OPINION, and no real facts to support your wild accusations.

As for manufactures and their contracts, what does that mean to me, the bike rider? Do I ride my bike so that manufacurers and shop owners can get rich, or do I want to get great wheels at the lowest cost? Can you demonstrate the BikeCost.com has broken any laws? I thought we lived in a free-market capitalistic country where a willing seller and buyer could negotiate a price using their free will, as long as it is a legal product purchased in accordance with the law.

This same argument have been made against Wal-Mart, Amazon.com, and just about every internet retailer, screamed from the rooftops by smaller shops that want to sell at a higher margin. There is room for both types of marketers, and I still go to the bike store for smaller or specialty items. Sometimes they even lower their price because I tell them it's cheaper on the internet, whispering "don't tell anyone we did this." - Maybe it's time you reveal your identity?


By the way, I had my brother, who is a software engineer at a fortune 100 company, to examine the source code of the one of the listing pages at BikeCost.com. He said he could find at least five places where they inserted their own customized code in the osCommerce template. He also said the someone would need to be fluent in PHP (I don't know what this is, but he does) to be able to accomplish this. So I guess "cheesy" is when you don't like the layout of someone's page. Again, what does this have to do with riding a bike? Do I want them to have a website like CNN or spend time learning about bike components?

All I can say is, why are you trying to ruin my buzz riding my great wheels? Why are trying to keep other people from having fun riding their bike without going broke? And that was a nice attempt at a sympathetic cover up for your shill Do you really think that one internet site is going to put your bike shop out of business? Again, please tell us where it is--someone might even buy something from you because they feel sorry for you!

Yet another "newbie" post on this topic (nice choice of username, now I wonder where you got that from...). Strange how this crap just suddenly motivates consumers to register at Bikeforums and write 5 paragraphs about it - because they just feel so insulted and can't keep their positive experiences to themselves....

indygreg

And I love how you do not dispute anything he says. Just attack him, not the message. That usually means you are in the wrong.

brians647

Sorta like what you just did?

And if you see all the red marks, I did attack his message - I don't believe it. Anybody who opens up with an implied threat of "John Wayne shot people for lying once" deserves to be questioned. Wake up and smell the coffee.

indygreg

The above long post talks about how there are not 3 lies . . . you do not address that.
It talks about the code (not sure why) to address some earlier point and you do not address that.
It talks about the ship time, you do not address that.

You simply call him a shill and ask him to identify himself (which is fine)

indygreg

And I will be honest about who I am, just in case you ask.

I have an internet bought bike. I work in IT and buy probably 3-5 things on-line a month. I am generally a defender of on-line commerce when I see scared hillbillies saying that every site is a rip off and all internet things are scams. I hate fear based on ignorance and the fear of change. As such, I am clearly biased to stand up for internet places when they get blasted - WHEN it seems unfair, like in this case. The OP starts off with lies (no phone number, etc) and that is not a good foundation for a thread like this.

brians647

Okay, I can respect where you're coming from. I attacked him, and not his message because I have not dealt with bikecost.com in a purchase situation, and cannot attest to one side or the other.

However, this guy just revived a week-old thread to post 6 paragraphs in defense of bikecost at 7:24am on a Monday morning - and I started to read between the lines. I mean, really, if I buy a Ford from XYZ Ford and somebody questions their low prices, am I going to feel like someone is raining on my XYZ Ford-driving parade? No. Even if they question XYZ Ford's practices, if I love my car and was dealt with fairly can't I just state that? Do I drum up an old post to defend them? Only if I have a lot of time, and/or own XYZ Ford. So, which is it?

Also, I emailed bikecost this past weekend, and they were very responsive and helpful. But I found it odd that a post appears on Monday morning with the username "brianA" when my last name was on those emails - a last name beginning with "A." (none of those emails referring to BikeForums). I did my own math on this one.

indygreg

Fair enough . . . solid middle ground . . . I agree it could be a suspicious post.

GNB

I think it's time for a group hug.

stoph78

I agree Brians647, I think Indygreg at first bashed u, because perhaps one did not see the RED editorial remarks u made within the Quoted text, instead just responding (to what I had originally just read) your remarks to the Quoted text.

However, when I reread this and saw you're editorial remarks within the quoted text, this revival is suspicious. One would hope that someone working for a company wouldn't hide behind a fake handle, LET ALONE, a handle that they took from an inquiry a potential buyer made in an email. Then take his name and use it to respond on this Forum. The COINCIDENCES are Scooby Doo like.

Bikecost has a great opportunity here, but with every business, price forgiving, Customer Service and Fundamentals are the future to prosperity. I have nothing bad to say about Bikecost, and do find people bashing them because of the opportunities they provide, childish. Especially those sellers who cannot compete with a single company. Business is business, and profit is profit.

Psimet2001 

That one post seems like a shill post.

indygreg

That was my point, and I am sorry if it came off hard. When I read his reply with the red text, I was only looking at the red, and at the time it just contained 'shill' type comments. I did not see the other part of this comments as they were not in red. He probably made a mistake in not making all his stuff red and I did not compare word for word to the quoted text to see what was new.

I would not have made my reply if the post was as it is now.

brians647

No worries, you're point was valid and it's all good. Thanks all.