VT Biker

For the new members to the forums, and for others unaware.

BikeDirect has a habit of creating new users and trying to push their bikes onto the members and viewers of these boards without your express knowledge that they are actually marketing.

We have now recently 2 Motobecan reviews extolling the great things about their carbon frames, and both overstating the low weight of the bikes.

In addition, another brand new member (join date June 2007) is now trying to set-up a Group buy with BikesDirect. I have a real big problem that (a) BikesDirect is using the forums for free marketing and ;(b) are lying to all of us by trying to pretend to be normal people who just happen to LOVE their BikesDirect bikes.

I ask you this - isn't sleazy that these people stoop to lying to sell their bikes? And if they are that sleazy here, how sleazy is the company in general?

urbanknight

Please tell me you knew this already and are just restating it for newer members. I have been aware of this for a while. It happens on another board I moderate too. You can state your opinion since the forum allows that, but it's up to the mods and owners to decide if they want to police, IP check, etc. and ask for payment.

btw, I believe BD Is a paying advertiser, so the forum might be less likely to police them (that's how Accolade gets away with it on evolutionm.net) . Welcome to capitalism.

VT Biker

Urbanknight - you and I may know this, but a lot of people on this board are unaware. It seems to me that if BD is allowed by the mods to use guerilla marketing tactics, we as members of the forum have every right to call these people out. And from the sounds of it, you seem to have no problem with this, but are vehemently upset I pointed this out.

Why is that? I mean, fair is fair, correct. They lie to us, we call them out, and as long as everyone is informed, there is no harm, no?

crtreedude 

Why not just list the ones you think are Shills and your evidence? If you don't have evidence, just suspicion, drop it.

GNB

WOW....I didn't know that!! How do ppl know that is the case for sure? There was just a big article in Atl that one of the execs of Whole Market foods was doing the same thing and there was a big investor fraud investigation and such. Such a sleazy tactic.....

crtreedude 

I am not sure and I am not a lawyer but I would think someone being on a forum saying they are just a customer when in fact an employee might well constitute false advertisement with an intent to deceive. You can generally be pretty sure anytime someone is trying to fake you out by saying they are something they are not in order to sell a product, a law is being broken somewhere.

VT Biker

Fairly certain this is not the case.

As long as the guerilla marketers do not make false claims ABOUT the products, it is okay. In other words, if they were claiming that the carbon bikes could be used to cure cancer, then that is false claim. And even the highly exagerated weight claims on the carbon bikes the most recent reviews stated technically are mis-leading, they would not be the same, since this weight is not claiming a specific performance or result from the product.

But guerilla marketing is legal and one of the fastest growing marketing segments in the country.

As I said, if you are talking for a long time to a women out of your league at a bar, and she seems oddly extolling the vitues of her drink....chances are she is out of your league and talking to you for a reason.

crtreedude 

Here is some interesting reading on the subject - and it could be illegal if they are doing it. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shill

But, it could also be actionable if you don't have a case and are damaging the reputation of BD without evidence. So, the question remains - what is your evidence?

urbanknight

No, you've got me all wrong. You should in fact have every right to call them out and I do have a problem with it. I'm just saying that the powers that be won't be enforcing anything on them because they get paid from them. It's shady alright, and I won't buy from them (or Accolade), but how long this thread lasts will tell you whether the dog is wagging its tail or if the tail is wagging the dog, if you know what I mean.

If you can prove that the suspected shills are employees, I believe it is fraud. The tricky part is proving it. Of course it's a suspicion, crtreedude, but he still has a right to express his concerns and opinions, as do you have a right to contradict him/her if you feel so inclined.

DieselDan

You may get banned for slandering a paid advertiser VT Biker. At islandpacket.com (Hilton Head Island's newspaper) a few forum members were banned for posting negative but true information about big advertisers. I have read rumors of BF members getting warned for posts such as your's.

urbanknight

crtreedude, I don't think a company has much recourse against slander or libel unless they can prove the opposite, and what company is going to try and prove that some guy is NOT affiliated in any way (impossible to prove in the first place) just to sue a single person?

crtreedude 

No, not true I do believe. Notice that sports figures can no longer extol the virtues of pantyhose unless they are actually wearing them (or looking at them I assume ) like Joe Namath did.

You don't have be trying to say something is that isn't true - acting like a client when you are not for the purpose of encouraging a person to buy seems to be fraud with the purpose of gaining money.

Guerrilla marketing I do believe is something else. For example, Bike Direct can participate and promote their wares here within the rules of the forum as long as it is done honestly. Let one person feel upset about a purchase and it can be sent to an Attorney General.

Old School

Don't you love the Internet? Anyone is free to make claims without providing proof. In a court of law you would get an objection from the opposing attorney for "facts not in evidence". If you have facts to support your allegation, OP, lay it out for us...

VT Biker

Well,

I would not be surprised (but have no evidence) that the BF group is well aware of the guerilla marketing tactics if they are going on.

And as I have stated - I may be completely wrong. But it is highly suspicious when you get a couple carbon bike reviews from new members, and then a new member asking about setting up a BD group buy. Since the Pedal Force group buy is allowed on this forum, I am sure BD would be foolish not to ask BF if they can essentially set up an order within the BF framework.

And if I get banned - wow. What big people the BF must be. If that happens, oh well. Not the end of the world.

crtreedude 

I have seen it done - being on the inside of forums before you wouldn't believe how often I got emails saying I better shut someone down or I would talking to a lawyer. Don't think that a company won't take something like this personally. Also, it is very simple to prove someone isn't working for you - check the person against employee records - besides, if you say something YOU better have proof - or you could be looking at defamation of character, etc, etc.

Now, I ask again - where is your evidence? Just as a bike selling shouldn't make claims that are unsubstantiated, neither should you.

VT Biker

Unlike the Court of Law - in real life, you sometimes need to use the "looks like a duck" sensibility. If you are always waiting for the smoking gun before reaching a conclusion, you likely will be had before you realize it.

brianallan

"It's ok"? I find it irritating. This is a community board, where we like to share our actual experiences with one another. I don't like people spreading inauthentic experiences to promote products. Guerilla marketing may be legal, but that's not a justification for a BD shill posting on the forum.

patentcad

I have also heard that VT Biker smokes crack, beats small children, and drowns kittens on the weekends.

But I have no proof to confirm that.

And now you know how Bikes Direct feels about this thread.

ezee

VT Biker, I take offense. I think you were referring to me (re. recreating an interest in a group buy from BD):

If you had taken the time to read my post thoroughly, till the end, you would've realized I was also being suspicious of BD's so called group buy initiative and NOT creating interest in it, as you so imply/accuse!

FWIW, I also thought the Motobecane review you refer to was/is a scam.

VT Biker

Actually - employee records would not be sufficient. I mean, theoretically, a company can either pay people under the table to eliminate the paper trail. A company may also hire a marketing firm, that then hires a bunch of out-of-work actors to do some free-lance work for them, including posting on-line.

In fact, most marketing is not done directly by a company, but through an agency or marketing group, which collects a fee, and then manages the entire marketing effort for them. Not sure BD is large enough to get to that point, but you see the degrees of seperation between a Company and the people actually doing the pitching for a product/company.

crtreedude 

So I see backpedaling - first you state it as fact, now you say you are suspicious. When I first read your stuff I was led to believe you had someone dead to rights - GREAT OUT THEM!

Now I see you have nothing but a suspicion - well, what if someone posted on a public forum suspicion regarding your preferences that if a future employer were to find would cost you a job? I suspect you would be upset and would be thinking lawsuit.

My suggestion is unless you want to find yourself at the end of legal action someday - don't say anything regarding money unless you can prove it. That is the rule - if it could end up costing someone revenue, a job, etc - you better be REALLY sure.

Honest, not trying to give you a hard time - just pointing out something you might want to be aware of. Free speech is free until it costs someone money...

If you want to know how I know - I own multiple businesses and I know I would be VERY fast to deal with a false accusation.

VT Biker

Well - I stand correct in terms of your effort and I apologize. (I am eating some crow here, no?).

But - the fact that Mike from Bikes Direct was even on this board trying to open up a group buy disturbs me. I just think advertising should be kept up front, with the banners to the right. Otherwise, the forums become less about regular citizens discussing cycling in an open and honest manner into something else entirely.

crtreedude 

Don't quit the day job - if there is no paper trail, your tail is in the wringer so to speak. Remember, law isn't about what you think is true, but what you can prove. If you can't prove it, you are in deep trouble. They don't have to prove anything. You say something is so - you have to prove it - this is called the affirmative obligation.

Patentcad is 100% right - now imagine that a future employer does what I do - search for people on the Internet - and runs across that little gem... Well, no proof but, well if Patentcad thinks so, he probably knows him more than me - next candidate... I wouldn't even say anything because I don't want a hassle - you are tainted.

Nachoman

I think VT is basically saying he has no "hard" evidence, but rather it seems suspicious based on "circumstantial" evidence.

Ironic Mullet

I'd say "being had" is an exaggeration. It may be the case that bikesdirect is behind the glowing reviews. Several of them certainly read that way. If that sells someone on the product, its not like their money is going into a black hole. They actually do get a bike - one that hopefully matches the specs as published on the site.

Will it ride exactly as described? Probably not, but Bicycling (yes, I know they're a bunch of shills too) states things like "handling that's slanted a bit toward stability, not edgy maneuverability" and "immediate throttle response and intuitive reaction to rider input" that are just as high on the glurge factor.