Shimano's Domination
#26
Senior Member
Join Date: Aug 2006
Location: Pittsburgh, PA
Posts: 470
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 0 Times
in
0 Posts
Pretty much the same problem as with Windows. It's what most people are familiar with, and it's cheap. Most people don't want to make the effort to switch. The way I see it, it's like this:
Shimano = Windows: it's just what most people use. Not really by choice, but by default.
SRAM = Mac: It's different, and nice, but becoming more popular.
Campy = Linux: Users swear by it, and no one else can understand why.
Of course I'm a mac user, and I have only shimano stuff, so it's not a perfect analogy.
Shimano = Windows: it's just what most people use. Not really by choice, but by default.
SRAM = Mac: It's different, and nice, but becoming more popular.
Campy = Linux: Users swear by it, and no one else can understand why.
Of course I'm a mac user, and I have only shimano stuff, so it's not a perfect analogy.
Shimano works, so this analogy doesn't.
#28
Getting Less Chunky
Join Date: Oct 2007
Posts: 974
Bikes: 2004 Raleigh SuperCourse
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 0 Times
in
0 Posts
#29
Senior Member
Join Date: Jun 2007
Location: ChapelBorro NC
Posts: 4,126
Mentioned: 8 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 98 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 0 Times
in
0 Posts
Shimano is a name that sells, like everyone else has said. Talk to a person who never had a high-end bike, and I would bet they have never heard of Campy or SRAM. Everyone knows Shimano though.
#31
Senior Member
Join Date: Jul 2007
Posts: 295
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 0 Times
in
0 Posts
Well, my and my wife's late 1990's era Trek mountain bikes came with Shimano LX and STX-RC components. The shifters on both bikes broke the second year, both within months of each other. These were not heavily used bikes. Turns out you can't repair Shimano, so you have to buy new replacements. That's when I decided Shimano wasn't for me.
#32
Senior Member
Join Date: Dec 2006
Posts: 3,693
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 0 Times
in
0 Posts
My complaint with shimano is that they are chasing a nonexistent improvement.
I want brifters designed for touring. I could care less if they were 7, 8 or 9 speed.
I want a broad range of gears starting with a really low bailout gear, not zillions of tiny cogs that wear out quickly.
I want brifters designed for touring. I could care less if they were 7, 8 or 9 speed.
I want a broad range of gears starting with a really low bailout gear, not zillions of tiny cogs that wear out quickly.
I'd love to see a 9 speed Ultegra/105 level cyclocross/touring type group. Unfortunately I don't se eit happening.
#33
Senior Member
Thread Starter
I agree with most of the profound statements on LBS's inventory and what sells. You are all correct.
I am not shimano bashing...Dura-Ace is spectacular and made very well.....Guess I just want to see more flavors instead of ultegra w/ ultegra G and ultegra this and that. Anything less than ultegra is too vanilla.
All but one of my bikes (7 of em) have shimano and SRAM, mostly ultegra and dura-ace with a sram 3 speed i-motion. It works, its nice and I have never had a problem with it...except my sram 3 speed fell aprt once and sram was quik to fix it. Mainly because that was all that was offered. Asked about a campy switch over on my Tommaso from DA to Chorus and they had a caniption......."Why would you want campy"
My campy record is in a different realm of reality.
I am not shimano bashing...Dura-Ace is spectacular and made very well.....Guess I just want to see more flavors instead of ultegra w/ ultegra G and ultegra this and that. Anything less than ultegra is too vanilla.
All but one of my bikes (7 of em) have shimano and SRAM, mostly ultegra and dura-ace with a sram 3 speed i-motion. It works, its nice and I have never had a problem with it...except my sram 3 speed fell aprt once and sram was quik to fix it. Mainly because that was all that was offered. Asked about a campy switch over on my Tommaso from DA to Chorus and they had a caniption......."Why would you want campy"
My campy record is in a different realm of reality.
#34
Senior Member
Join Date: Mar 2003
Location: Beaufort, South Carolina, USA and surrounding islands.
Posts: 8,521
Bikes: Cannondale R500, Motobecane Messenger
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 11 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 1 Time
in
1 Post
FWIW, Sampson and Sturmey-Archer both have working groupsets about to hit the market, and FSA keeps talking about a road groupset. Also, the dollar is stronger against the Yen, and the Euro is stronger then the dollar.
#35
CERVEL-LIZED!
Join Date: Dec 2006
Posts: 1,696
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 0 Times
in
0 Posts
Its all economics. Shimano has the quality and the price point for each level to dominate the cycling market. they are not catering only to small niche snob high end market that wants more variance,...they cater to all. It makes business sense to LBS to stock Shimano on their bikes. Will it change? Probably. I have a feeling though that it would take a long time for that to happen.
For every person that says Shimano lacks flavor or is boring or is not good enough or Campy is better.......there are ten that would vouch for its quality and reliability with the price to match. Thats what Shimano sees and that is what the LBS follows (most of them).
The key word here is "most". The product manager knows they cannot get all to like their product...they are targeting most. They are succeeding i reckon.
Ahhh the capitalist economy you have got to love it!
For every person that says Shimano lacks flavor or is boring or is not good enough or Campy is better.......there are ten that would vouch for its quality and reliability with the price to match. Thats what Shimano sees and that is what the LBS follows (most of them).
The key word here is "most". The product manager knows they cannot get all to like their product...they are targeting most. They are succeeding i reckon.
Ahhh the capitalist economy you have got to love it!
#36
Senior Member
I somewhat agree. The great thing about Shimano is (was) the ability to mix and match the mountain stuff with the road stuff. So you could put, say, an XT rear derailleur with a 105 group to get a wide range casette. Unfortunately now that everything has moved to 10 speed above Tiagra, while mountain stuff is 9 speed, you need to either get NOS or Tiagra brifters.
I'd love to see a 9 speed Ultegra/105 level cyclocross/touring type group. Unfortunately I don't se eit happening.
I'd love to see a 9 speed Ultegra/105 level cyclocross/touring type group. Unfortunately I don't se eit happening.
#37
Senior Member
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: Athens, Ohio
Posts: 5,104
Bikes: Custom Custom Custom
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 1 Time
in
1 Post
There are hardly any OE Campy equipped bikes except really high end bikes. Usually ones with Record or Chorus. Most bike shop owners are not going to stock a $5-6000 bike on the floor unless there is a high demand for Campy or high end bikes.
Also, Campy does not offer huge OE discounts to manufacturers like Shimano does. They simply cannot do it. I read somewhere that if a high volume manufacturer (Giant) wanted to OE spec a road bike with Chorus/Centaur, they would probably decline. They would not be able to supply enough groups to meet demand. And also the fact they want to stay an exclusive elite brand.
Come to the shop I work at. Yes we don't stock Campy equipped bikes (because none of our lines offer it), but I personally, and a former employee/friend/teammate ride Record Equipped bikes. We'll let you take it out for a short spin to try it out. We then can work on a custom build.
Also, Campy does not offer huge OE discounts to manufacturers like Shimano does. They simply cannot do it. I read somewhere that if a high volume manufacturer (Giant) wanted to OE spec a road bike with Chorus/Centaur, they would probably decline. They would not be able to supply enough groups to meet demand. And also the fact they want to stay an exclusive elite brand.
Come to the shop I work at. Yes we don't stock Campy equipped bikes (because none of our lines offer it), but I personally, and a former employee/friend/teammate ride Record Equipped bikes. We'll let you take it out for a short spin to try it out. We then can work on a custom build.
#38
Senior Member
Join Date: Dec 2006
Posts: 3,693
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 0 Times
in
0 Posts
QBP still stocks 9-speed Shimano STI shifters at all levels, all the way up to Dura-Ace. There are tons and tons of Ultegra shifters currently in stock. Just because it ain't the latest and greatest doesn't mean that Shimano has stopped making it or your LBS stopped selling it. You might have to wait to week to get it in on special order.
#39
Custom User Title
Join Date: Feb 2007
Location: Winnipeg, Canada
Posts: 1,913
Bikes: 2006 Marin Stelvio, 1990s Steve Bauer, Marin Palisades Trail
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 0 Times
in
0 Posts
we stock manly willier bikes at the shop I'm at, and most of their bikes come with campy on them, we have 3 or 4 shimano bikes in the store, but around 15 campy bikes. all depends on the manufacturer.
#40
.
Join Date: Aug 2005
Location: Rocket City, No'ala
Posts: 12,760
Bikes: 2014 Trek Domane 5.2, 1985 Pinarello Treviso, 1990 Gardin Shred, 2006 Bianchi San Jose
Mentioned: 3 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 62 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 24 Times
in
11 Posts
You can get components for everything but derailleurs from a lot of other companies besides Shimano and Campagnolo. Oh, and SRAM has derailleurs, too. And FSA makes a front derailleur.
So what was the complaint again?
So what was the complaint again?
#41
Senior Member
Join Date: Dec 2005
Location: Charlottesville, Virginia
Posts: 1,990
Bikes: Dawes Kalahari, Puch Prima Super Sport, Graham Weigh 853
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 1 Time
in
1 Post
But Shimano doesn't make clothing? What kind of markey domination is that? Wusses...
The situation is different in Europe, but not hugely. What gets me is that Campagnolo groupset, when bought from an online retailer like probikekit, for example, are typically cheaper than Shimano groups. So Shimans OEM discounts must be spectacular.
I asked an LBS about a Campagnolo cross bike and they wondering why I might do that. In my case, it's because I hate STI.
The situation is different in Europe, but not hugely. What gets me is that Campagnolo groupset, when bought from an online retailer like probikekit, for example, are typically cheaper than Shimano groups. So Shimans OEM discounts must be spectacular.
I asked an LBS about a Campagnolo cross bike and they wondering why I might do that. In my case, it's because I hate STI.
#43
geekracer
Join Date: Aug 2007
Location: Brooklyn!
Posts: 24
Bikes: Cervelo soloist team, schwinn madison, 1986 vintage bottechia, voodoo mtb
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 0 Times
in
0 Posts
@chunkyb: you have the chronology wrong - campagnolo is like mac, the first, the best and the original. but campy got lazy and was copied and surpassed by in some respects by shimano ie windows. Mac/campy reformed and got better and now, despite lessend market share is the choice of fewer but more discerning/economically indulgent people. SRAM is like linux, the newcomer of uncertain origin that is really coming into its own, if you are performance minded. And this from a current mac user since 98 and a campagnolo rider since ~1979, who is riding his first shimano bike under duress but actually seriously coveting SRAM RED. Aw heck I'd ride Force... if apple did not exist it would be up to microsoft to invent them (applogies to voltaire)
shimano is losing theire edge and grasping - new DA carbon chainset.. ugh. the new wheels are better than the last set, cracks in the armour
shimano is losing theire edge and grasping - new DA carbon chainset.. ugh. the new wheels are better than the last set, cracks in the armour
Last edited by JFO-NY; 11-11-07 at 01:38 AM.
#44
geekracer
Join Date: Aug 2007
Location: Brooklyn!
Posts: 24
Bikes: Cervelo soloist team, schwinn madison, 1986 vintage bottechia, voodoo mtb
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 0 Times
in
0 Posts
@flashbazbo: your issue is geography. "Remember that the primary goal of an LBS is NOT entertaining you with cool stuff. If they've got cool stuff there all year and end up inventorying it at the start of the next year, and the next year, and the next year, they're dead. The primary goal of an LBS is making a living -- turning a profit. Clearly, your LBS doesn't think Campy and SRAM will do that for him. (He is almost certainly right.)
up in NY it is his primary goal - because ther is another 10 LBSs I can go to who will. Here the lowest common denominator doent get the win. Im sure the cartel of trek/cannondale/specialized make bank. but the real riders and shop talk is about more than a monoculture. Yes all businessmen want to make bank - thats the point. but the density of competition (from me to you or me to hong kong) gives you niches, adventure or oblivion.
up in NY it is his primary goal - because ther is another 10 LBSs I can go to who will. Here the lowest common denominator doent get the win. Im sure the cartel of trek/cannondale/specialized make bank. but the real riders and shop talk is about more than a monoculture. Yes all businessmen want to make bank - thats the point. but the density of competition (from me to you or me to hong kong) gives you niches, adventure or oblivion.
#45
Justin
Join Date: Jan 2007
Location: Bayou City
Posts: 1,051
Bikes: Soma Double Cross, KHS Urban Uno
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 0 Times
in
0 Posts
#46
Senior Member
Also, Campy does not offer huge OE discounts to manufacturers like Shimano does. They simply cannot do it. I read somewhere that if a high volume manufacturer (Giant) wanted to OE spec a road bike with Chorus/Centaur, they would probably decline. They would not be able to supply enough groups to meet demand. And also the fact they want to stay an exclusive elite brand.
Come to the shop I work at. Yes we don't stock Campy equipped bikes (because none of our lines offer it), but I personally, and a former employee/friend/teammate ride Record Equipped bikes. We'll let you take it out for a short spin to try it out. We then can work on a custom build.
Come to the shop I work at. Yes we don't stock Campy equipped bikes (because none of our lines offer it), but I personally, and a former employee/friend/teammate ride Record Equipped bikes. We'll let you take it out for a short spin to try it out. We then can work on a custom build.
Tim
#47
Senior Member
Join Date: Apr 2005
Location: Alameda, CA
Posts: 1,093
Bikes: Cannondale CAAD7
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 0 Times
in
0 Posts
I love the STI shifters, there are positions on the drops where you can't reach that campy thumb tab, but with the shimano shifter, I can reach it from anywhere on the drops
#48
.
Join Date: Jan 2006
Posts: 40,375
Mentioned: 2 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 15 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 27 Times
in
12 Posts
But Shimano doesn't make clothing? What kind of markey domination is that? Wusses...
The situation is different in Europe, but not hugely. What gets me is that Campagnolo groupset, when bought from an online retailer like probikekit, for example, are typically cheaper than Shimano groups. So Shimans OEM discounts must be spectacular.
I asked an LBS about a Campagnolo cross bike and they wondering why I might do that. In my case, it's because I hate STI.
The situation is different in Europe, but not hugely. What gets me is that Campagnolo groupset, when bought from an online retailer like probikekit, for example, are typically cheaper than Shimano groups. So Shimans OEM discounts must be spectacular.
I asked an LBS about a Campagnolo cross bike and they wondering why I might do that. In my case, it's because I hate STI.
#49
World's slowest cyclist.
Join Date: Oct 2007
Location: Londonderry, NH
Posts: 1,353
Bikes: Cannondale CAAD5 and Cannondale Rush
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 2 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 0 Times
in
0 Posts
I'd bet the reason Shimano shows up on so many bikes has nothing to do with performance. They probably have shorter lead times or more consistant delivery performance than the competition. If you're a bike maker who do you buy from, the guy with great stuff who misses shipments and shuts down your factory or the guy with great stuff who never misses a shipment date?
#50
Not Newbie
Join Date: Oct 2005
Location: Melbourne, Australia
Posts: 131
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 0 Times
in
0 Posts
Giant in Australia sold a TCR Composite Euro with 10 speed Centaur as a 2005 model. I just did a quick search, and it sold for the same price as the Ultegra bike with the same frame. You don't see many: I've only ever seen 1 that I noticed. For most people, Ultegra or Centaur bike for the same price = Ultegra.