Scooper

I took delivery of the bike in early May and have been riding the hell out of it. My longest ride was a hundred mile day trip from San Francisco through Marin, Sonoma, and Napa counties. It was a comfortable, relatively effortless day for my 65 year old carcass, and the frame rides wonderfully. The geometry is intentionally fairly relaxed with a pretty long wheelbase (73° HTA, 72° STA, 433mm chainstay length, 1030mm wheelbase) as I wanted it to be comfy and stable on long rides. The 61cm frame weighs 1650 grams (~3.6 pounds) and the chrome plated 531 fork weighs about 1.8 pounds, so it's not much lighter than 853, S3 or OX Platinum, but it doesn't rust so I fully expect it to outlast me even though I'm racking up the miles. 953 is a tough tubeset that's really hard to dent (not that I've tried to dent it, but several framebuilders have posted that they did try and found it quite dent resistant).

Yes!

dcvelo

Ya know, I've just never gotten the appeal of lugs. (Don't get me started on lugged carbon frames, which look like their built from pvc plumbing).

An average weld (think my older Specialized Sirrus) is pretty much a surgical scar. The tubes on my Merckx Team SC, on the other hand, simply flow together. Far prettier in my eyes.

Okay, those aren't steel frames, I know, and the Merckx is fairly high end, but even my wife's Jamis Coda has a really decent welding job.

And when they start to do all the little curlicues and engraving on lugs...oh well, I'm a minimalist at heart.

afan

[QUOTE=Scooper;6109141]I took delivery of the bike in early May and have been riding the hell out of it. My longest ride was a hundred mile day trip from San Francisco through Marin, Sonoma, and Napa counties. It was a comfortable, relatively effortless day for my 65 year old carcass, and the frame rides wonderfully. The geometry is intentionally fairly relaxed with a pretty long wheelbase (73° HTA, 72° STA, 433mm chainstay length, 1030mm wheelbase) as I wanted it to be comfy and stable on long rides. The 61cm frame weighs 1650 grams (~3.6 pounds) and the chrome plated 531 fork weighs about 1.8 pounds, so it's not much lighter than 853, S3 or OX Platinum, but it doesn't rust so I fully expect it to outlast me even though I'm racking up the miles. 953 is a tough tubeset that's really hard to dent (not that I've tried to dent it, but several framebuilders have posted that they did try and found it quite dent resistant).


Thanks for the feedback. You have similar dimensions on the frame and cycling usage/style to myself. Just out of interest, were you set on steel before you bought it and what was the attraction of 953 in particular versus 853 et al?

afan

Do you think Ti prices are worth it for Ti then?

Hocam

I tend to like understated but elegant lugs, like this:


If you don't, then that's fine too. Different strokes for different folks.

MIN 

What are you are yacking about old man, 953 wasn't around in the 80's.

https://www.bikeforums.net/road-cycling/304159-difference-between-reynolds-steel-grades.html

https://www.reynoldscycles.co.uk/steel953.html

iqaro

Mmmmmm... I don´t know how much expensive is. But Reynols953 steel has two times strength of titanium for 1.6 its times weight, and steel is more stiff.

afan

So 953 is twice as strong but one-and-a-half times as heavy as Ti. So, question is one of whether weight or strength and stiffness is most important?

Scooper

Yes, I was set on steel before I bought it. I really liked the idea of a high strength, corrosion resistant steel with a natural polished finish that would look great without ever needing paint, and these attributes aren't available in non-stainless steels like 853, OX Platinum, OS2, etc.

When I first approached Waterford about building a 953 frame for me in October, 2005, they were reluctant as they had no experience with the material and had concerns about ductility, risk of frame warp if post manufacture heat treating had to be used, etc. It took a year for them to evaluate 953 for manufacturability, strength, ride quality, longevity, etc., before deciding to build frames with it.

Scooper

It's not quite that simple.

Scot Nicol, founder of Ibis, wrote a series of seven articles for VeloNews awhile back that discusses the properties and trade-offs of different frame materials. The compilation of articles is a "must read" in understanding tensile strength, modulus of elasticity, density, elongation, fatigue limit, hardness, toughness, shear strength, etc., of different materials.

Metallurgy for Cyclists

Here are some numbers for Reynolds 953:

Ultimate tensile strength - 1700 to 2050 MPa depending on process and heat-treatment selected (for comparison, 853 airhardening steel
Ultimate tensile strength is 1200-1400 Mpa).

Density is 7.79 gm/cc. Poissons ratio is 0.30.

Yield strength is 1500-1900 MPa depending on the combination of cold-working, butting, and ageing temperature. (for comparison, 1500 MPa
is approx. twice the yield strength of Cold-worked, Stress relieved 3-2.5 titanium).

Stiffness Modulus (E) is 200 GPa, similar to other steel alloys.

In the chart below, the important numbers are on the bottom graph:

Strength-to-Weight ratio and Stiffness-to-weight Ratio

iqaro

Graph says all: let's compare Ti vs 953 and find that 953 has twice strength and stiffness than Ti-alloy. If ones assume that working with them will reduce properties if you have same workmanship, and similar processes -By the way I think (please some expert help me) that working with high tensile steel is as expensive as working with titanium, if not cheaper- then you'll have then same ratio of sthenght and stiffness among products (say Ti frame bike vs 953 frame bike). So, 953 still have advantages over titanium, because its density 7.78 g/cm3(steel) vs 4.8 g/cm3(Ti): at least 25% more strength and stiffness.

Scooper

You are a quick understudy.

logdrum

In simpler terms 953 is better than Ti, right? -- Good news cause I like steel!


Anyone use this yet. Is it still springy or this alloy is so stiff it's like aluminum?

Scooper

"Better than Ti" is very subjective, and folks are going to have different opinions. As I said earlier in this thread, I've been riding my 953 frame since last May and love the ride. It's like any other well designed quality steel bike.

logdrum

Stan -- Thanks. I just love the steel ride!

I am on the fence in buying Ti but just found out about this new tubing. I love steel and if I can get something as light or nearing ti in weight and with that longevity --- I think I am going for it. Any vendors you'd recommend, I think I see a lot of US builders... Is yours lugged or TIGed.

Scooper

Mine is lugged using Richard Sachs stainless steel Newvex lugs and Pacenti stainless bottom bracket shell.

There are a number of builders making frames with 953 and Columbus XCr now. Waterford, Carl Strong, Bob Brown, and Independent Fabrication come immediately to mind.

MIN 

Stan-

other than the fact that it is 953, is there a tangible ride difference between that and your other steel bikes?

michaelmc

What's the frame weight? Frame and fork?

Scooper

There's no difference in ride quality that I can discern, although because it's six pounds lighter than my '72 531 Paramount and four pounds lighter than my '87 SL/SP Paramount, it accelerates faster and climbs better.

The 61cm frame weighs 1650 grams. Since 953 fork blades aren't available, the fork is chrome plated 531. It (the fork) weighs 820 grams.

alancw3

scooper, absolutely gorgeous!!! when reynolds announced 953 i said what ashame. if they had come out with 953 in 1990 there would be no titanium bikes today imho! they could have owned the market but instead rested on their laurals. anyway enjoy that wonderful bike!

MIN 

Have you considered a carbon fork, or are you a purist?

alancw3

say what you will but imho a lugged bike is absolutely the most gorgeous bike. tigged just doesn't cut it.

case in point:https://cgi.ebay.com/WATERFORD-Custom...QQcmdZViewItem

Scooper

Both.

I'm a purist, so I think this frame should have a steel fork. OTOH, I'm going to get a Wound Up carbon fork from Waterford fitted to the frame to see what it rides like. I've already taken flak from friends who think I can no longer be trusted because I put the Record carbon group on this frame, so why not try a CF fork?

Scooper

Alan, I personally agree with you. That frame, BTW, was used by Waterford at either Interbike or NAHBS as an example of what can be done with 953 and custom carved lugs by a master lug carver (Dave Wages). Frankly, it's a little over-the-top for me, but it certainly does show what a good lug carver can do.

Dave, BTW, has left Waterford to hang out his own shingle as a framebuilder. Dave's Blog.

I wish him well.

MIN 

Perhaps you can compromise and buy a Easton EC90 in white. Lightest thing going right now and the slim profile looks great on steel.