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Thread: Hed H3 & H3C

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    Hed H3 & H3C

    I'm looking to purchase a set of aero wheels for triathlons and occasional training use. I'm leaning toward the Hed 3's. I don't like the idea of having to switch out brake pads when switching between training wheels and race wheels, if i purchased a set of H3c's. Would it be a bad idea to go with a H3C front and the aluminum rim H3 in the back? The weight savings would be 120 grams in the front, totaling 1670g, compared to 1790g for the H3 pair.

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    Carpe Diem bdcheung's Avatar
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    100g won't make a difference. Buy whatever makes your life easier.
    "When you are chewing the bars at the business end of a 90 mile road race you really dont care what gear you have hanging from your bike so long as it works."
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    Young and unconcerned Treefox's Avatar
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    Don't train on them.

    Bear in mind that you may be able to find them slightly more cheaply as a pair rather than picking a front and picking a back.

    There are, of course, lots and lots more options out there besides the HED3.
    Die schokoladenseite des radfahrens.

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    For the brake pad issue, stick with the clinchers. And the weight doesn't make much difference, however, my personal taste prefers the looks of the H3c.
    Ebay is a good source of used wheels, but keep in mind that the Hed3 wheel comes in a variance of trueness. Try to find a wheel that's less than 0.02. And even if you buy from a LBS or a online shop, ask about the trueness of the wheel before buying. Above 0.025, you'll notice a wobble. "hoohabike" (HED) sells their blem and B-grade wheels on eBay.

    Treefox suggests not to train on them ? I had a set of HED3 clincher wheels that I trained (daily) and raced on. I felt they were bomb-proof. But, I soon sold the rear for a disc, and trained and raced on the Hed3 F / RENN R for 2 years. In my opinion, you benefit from training on the aero set that you plan to race on. You never know what race day will be like and one issue is developing a comfort zone in windy conditions when you have the Hed3 / Disc set up.

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    Quarq shill cslone's Avatar
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    I'd go with the regular H3's. If you get one of each, then you'll have to carry two spares, have two sets of pads. It would just be a pain. H3's are very durable, and you could train on them pretty exclusively if you wanted. But I would keep the race wheels for race day when they'll give you that mental boost. Train on them occasionally to get used to the crosswind handling though.
    FS: Fuji SL1 frameset, 55.5cm toptube, excellent condition.

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    I agree with the others and your initial thought. Who wants to deal with different brake pads? The weight issue isn't that big in the grand scheme of things. Like others have said, consider clinchers.

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    Quarq shill cslone's Avatar
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    And HED really likes these tires with thier H3 clinchers. Says they test very well.

    http://bontrager.com/Road/Wheelworks/Tires/21239.php
    FS: Fuji SL1 frameset, 55.5cm toptube, excellent condition.

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    First, to whoever posted it up top, this isn't just a clincher/tub issue as the aluminum ones come in both. I train on my H3 clinchers and have no issues with them. You really don't want to carry brake pads across and I don't think the weight will make a huge difference. I personally prefer aluminum braking surfaces as well, but that is because I ride in the rain.

    I don't see a downside to Al on one wheel and carbon on the other if you are buying them new. If you get them used it might be slightly more expensive as stated. I'd say 0.030" would be a reasonable cut for the H3's. Because they are usually gradual shift an H3 around 0.030 behaves like a wire spoked wheel at 0.020, in my experience.

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    I train on my HED3 clinchers and so far, they have been bomb proof! I am 90 kilograms.
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    some people indeed have more money than sense...but they have enough sense to buy what makes them happy![/SIGPIC]

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    I trained on and raced on H3s before they were H3s - when they were Specialized TriSpokes. I raced on them as recently as last July, but after flatting all my tires I got lazy and haven't swapped one out.

    I trained and raced on tubular TriSpokes for perhaps 5 years, mixing it up with Zipp 440s, 340s, and some light box section tubulars. This lasted from sometimes in the early 90s (93?) until maybe 2000 or so. I got a clincher front TriSpoke and trained on that pretty exclusively for a number of years, only taking a couple years to ride Spinergys as a show of support for a friend that worked there.

    I've never ridden the carbon rim version but the standard one is absolutely bombproof, as strong as anything else out there. They are a bit heavy but they are fast once they're rolling. In a cross-tailwind they are almost unbeatable.

    I found that these wheels are the fastest wheels for me when sprinting in a top speed situation (i.e. flat sprint with leadout). I think they'll be illegal for mass start racing, not sure where UCI rules are applied for Cat 3s, but these wheels have 13 fewer spokes than the 16 spoke minimum mandated by the UCI.

    cdr

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    Young and unconcerned Treefox's Avatar
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    As for training, why risk damaging your posh carbon wheels when you could get a better workout on a pair of heavy Tiagras or whatever old school wheels you've got lying about in the garage?

    Did actually finally see The Flying Scotsman on Wednesday at a club social and we were all moaning in the scene where he's riding his Specialized Trispokes in the rain.


    Quote Originally Posted by carpediemracing View Post
    I think they'll be illegal for mass start racing, not sure where UCI rules are applied for Cat 3s, but these wheels have 13 fewer spokes than the 16 spoke minimum mandated by the UCI.

    cdr
    I'm fairly sure they are illegal. Just imagine if someone got their arm through one during a crash. (which is, I believe, what doomed Spinergy's Rev-X - with paired bladed carbon fins - properly sharp too - they'd go right to the bone before sending shards of carbon fibre into the wound. Granted the Rev-X also had issues with collapsing on its own, contributing to the 'OMG! Carbon will explode!!!!!!!' reputation of carbon fibre.)
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    Well, it's not about the weight. You can use any off the shelf wheel to train on, so it's true that the Tiagra will work like anything else.
    I've seen a number of times on forums, and have heard at races, how difficult the Tri-spoke / Disc combination is difficult to handle. Even in slight windy conditions. It takes training to get used to the combination. And I wouldn't consider a Hed3 wheel posh. It's a true race wheel that is durable enough to train on.
    Now, I have a hard time training on my 909 wheelset. That would be an expensive crash replacement and I don't consider those wheels to be bomb-proof enough to train on.

    Another thing for the OP to consider. Have a separate set of tires to train and race on. For instance, use a whatever tire to train on and a low CRR tire to race on. Clinchers are easy to switch over the day before a race.

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    I would train once a week on your "race" wheels for the purpose of bike handling. No need to train on them everyday.

    As for tubulars vs clinchers, now a days, its mainly a personal preference. You are not getting paid or getting free tires so economically, clinchers are better. But imo, since you are dropping a huge load of cash to get a set of carbon wheels, I think its worthwhile to get tubular wheels (and usually they are cheaper) I'll get a season or two on a set of tubulars unless i get a flat.

    And changing brake pads from standard and carbon isn't as big of a deal as you may think. I do it all the time when I do race. Its a 5 minute ordeal and you get quite good at it. My recommendation is to get a whole new set of holders. This holds true especially for those who ride Campy and use Campy brakes. Shimano guys, you could mess around with that tiny set screw and slide out the pads, then re adjust the pad alighnment, but I think its easier to just unbolt the whole pad holder and swap out with your other set with carbon pads in them already. Do you change your carbon pads mid race if you flat? No, just get the wheel change and go off and ride. Either toss the pads or sand them down after the race to get all aluminum out of the pads

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    Quote Originally Posted by Treefox View Post
    Just imagine if someone got their arm through one during a crash. (which is, I believe, what doomed Spinergy's Rev-X - with paired bladed carbon fins - properly sharp too - they'd go right to the bone before sending shards of carbon fibre into the wound. Granted the Rev-X also had issues with collapsing on its own, contributing to the 'OMG! Carbon will explode!!!!!!!' reputation of carbon fibre.)
    True that on the Rev-X's early generations. The later generation wheels were rock solid reliable. With the blade "protectors", the wheels were still legal for USA Cycling, ditto TriSpokes, as recently as last year.

    I've fallen a few times with the TriSpokes, and unless you're going really, really slow, your limbs will get bounced out of the TriSpokes - I know because I've had multiple instances where someone's pedal/skewer/derailleur went into my TriSpoke, with nothing except some loud noise as a consequence.

    With Rev-X, the sharper edge will grab whatever, so when someone put their skewer in my front wheel at the bell in the Hartford Crit, my bike jumped pretty hard. Lost a piece of one of the spokes, the other guy was fine, and I got 3rd or 4th in the race in the field sprint. I rode and raced on that wheel for years afterwards, the wheel (a last generation wheel) still totally reliable.

    cdr

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    Senior Member bitingduck's Avatar
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    The list of UCI approved non-standard wheels is here:UCI List


    I've heard rumor that USAC is going to bring their equipment rules into line with the UCI rules over the next couple years, but haven't really checked to verify.

    I still race on an old pair of the Specialized tri-spokes-- they're still legal for track because the non-standard wheel rule only applies to mass start road events. I agree that they're bomb-proof, having crashed them a couple times. They still have some of the best aero performance available, though they're also about the least stiff aero wheel you can buy. Most of the time the squishyness doesn't matter, but there are a few events where I'd like a stiffer wheel, so I'm looking at maybe getting some 404s.
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    Senior Member DigitalRJH's Avatar
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    I gotta ask about your screen name...is that in reference to the movie "Coming to America" the fantastic lead singer of Sexual Chocolate, also recognized from the What's Goin Down episode of That's My Mama, Mr Randy......Watsonnnnnnnnnnnn!!!

    Or, is it just your name?

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    Quote Originally Posted by carpediemracing View Post
    True that on the Rev-X's early generations. The later generation wheels were rock solid reliable. With the blade "protectors", the wheels were still legal for USA Cycling, ditto TriSpokes, as recently as last year.

    I've fallen a few times with the TriSpokes, and unless you're going really, really slow, your limbs will get bounced out of the TriSpokes - I know because I've had multiple instances where someone's pedal/skewer/derailleur went into my TriSpoke, with nothing except some loud noise as a consequence.

    With Rev-X, the sharper edge will grab whatever, so when someone put their skewer in my front wheel at the bell in the Hartford Crit, my bike jumped pretty hard. Lost a piece of one of the spokes, the other guy was fine, and I got 3rd or 4th in the race in the field sprint. I rode and raced on that wheel for years afterwards, the wheel (a last generation wheel) still totally reliable.

    cdr
    I actually got a Rev-X off eBay semi-unintentionally (put in a throwaway low bid, but then got it). I've not gotten around to putting a tyre on it though, and have since acquired a disc and a pair of Cosmic Carbones, so I need to get my lazy self organised and sell it off. I'd have liked to try out riding it, but that's not worth the effort and money of gluing a tub.

    Though I'm no expert, I believe it's one of the newer ones as it's got the little rivets.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Treefox View Post
    I believe it's one of the newer ones as it's got the little rivets.
    Pretty much all of them had the rivets. The key is the hub. If the center of the hub has no circlips, has three sections which are virtually the same diameter, and the diameter is wider than the bearings on the outside, then you probably have a newer hub.

    The ones with the 90 degree carbon angle visible on the hub (generation 1) fail. The ones with circlips just to the inside of the 90 degree carbon angle (gen 2) fail. The ones with aluminum rings around the 90 degree carbon ring, i.e. so you can't see the 90 degree angle anymore, and circlips holding them in place (gen 3), they fail.

    Finally, if you have the rings hiding the 90 deg carbon AND you have a third aluminum ring acting as a spacer to keep the two outer rings separate, then you have a generation 4 hub. These do not fail.

    The cause of the wheel failures was that the base of the carbon spokes, pressed outwards on the hub to "tension" the spokes, moved inward when circlips, glue, or something else failed. With no tension the wheel lost strength and broke.

    The fourth gen hub simply does not allow the spokes to detension - they'd have to crush solid aluminum to do so. The only way those wheels failed was due to crashes or delamination or manufacturing problems (epoxy problems etc).

    The fourth gen wheel had a few variations - the lightweight one (ti axle, drilled out inner wall of rim), the super stiff one (double layup of carbon on the spokes), and some employee modified lightweight superstiffs.

    For the record Cipollini raced stock superstiffs with x braces, painted red and labeled "Lion King".

    cdr

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    Quote Originally Posted by DigitalRJH View Post
    I gotta ask about your screen name...is that in reference to the movie "Coming to America" the fantastic lead singer of Sexual Chocolate, also recognized from the What's Goin Down episode of That's My Mama, Mr Randy......Watsonnnnnnnnnnnn!!!

    Or, is it just your name?
    Jackson Heights own...

    Dude I wish that was my real name, that would be freaking sweet!

  20. #20
    Senior Member DigitalRJH's Avatar
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    Damn that boy can sing..........you must be crazy......

    Excellent film!

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    Young and unconcerned Treefox's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by carpediemracing View Post
    Pretty much all of them had the rivets. The key is the hub. If the center of the hub has no circlips, has three sections which are virtually the same diameter, and the diameter is wider than the bearings on the outside, then you probably have a newer hub.

    The ones with the 90 degree carbon angle visible on the hub (generation 1) fail. The ones with circlips just to the inside of the 90 degree carbon angle (gen 2) fail. The ones with aluminum rings around the 90 degree carbon ring, i.e. so you can't see the 90 degree angle anymore, and circlips holding them in place (gen 3), they fail.

    Finally, if you have the rings hiding the 90 deg carbon AND you have a third aluminum ring acting as a spacer to keep the two outer rings separate, then you have a generation 4 hub. These do not fail.

    The cause of the wheel failures was that the base of the carbon spokes, pressed outwards on the hub to "tension" the spokes, moved inward when circlips, glue, or something else failed. With no tension the wheel lost strength and broke.

    The fourth gen hub simply does not allow the spokes to detension - they'd have to crush solid aluminum to do so. The only way those wheels failed was due to crashes or delamination or manufacturing problems (epoxy problems etc).

    The fourth gen wheel had a few variations - the lightweight one (ti axle, drilled out inner wall of rim), the super stiff one (double layup of carbon on the spokes), and some employee modified lightweight superstiffs.

    For the record Cipollini raced stock superstiffs with x braces, painted red and labeled "Lion King".

    cdr
    Ah, very interesting, though I don't completely understand all of it.

    Here's my hub - sounds like I may be lucky and have a 4th gen, if I understand you correctly.

    Die schokoladenseite des radfahrens.

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    correct, that's a 4th gen. They clean up nicely with some polishing compound.

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    re: training with a "race" wheel - I trained on a front TriSpoke all the time because they handle so differently from a regular box section wheel. This let me use the front wheel in gusty wind at a seaside airport course with no problems.

    cdr

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    Young and unconcerned Treefox's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by carpediemracing View Post
    correct, that's a 4th gen. They clean up nicely with some polishing compound.
    Yeah - I didn't realise how dirty it was until I took a flash photo.
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