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  • Rivendell.

    78 45.88%
  • Bikesdirect.

    92 54.12%
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  1. #51
    SLJ 6/8/65-5/2/07 Walter's Avatar
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    Dude #1 pays umpteen thousand dollars for a racer with an unobtainium frame and is thrilled.

    Dude #2 pays umpteen thousand dollars for (subjectvely) heavy Rivendell and is thrilled.

    Question #1: Why do we care so much about Dude #2 and his "cultish" bike?

    Question #2: Why does Grant Peterson care so much about Dude #1 and his "ill-fitting overgeared" bike?

    Question #3: Are we all that different from Peterson and vice-versa?

    AEO: Your definition of "cult" fits just about any religion. I haven't heard too many ministers of any faith start a sermon with "We might be right when we say we believe..........."


    Last edited by Walter; 05-22-08 at 01:03 PM. Reason: put things in proper place & grammar
    “Life is not one damned thing after another. Life is one damned thing over and over.”
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  2. #52
    AEO
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    "I believe in god, but I hate his fan clubs." -someone

    ok, so I don't really believe in "god", but he who doesn't question the authority of government/religion must be brain washed pretty good. The difference between a cult and religion is that a cult will lead you to believe (re. brainwash) that you're not happy because you didn't have enough faith. A religion will allow you to leave any time or change religion without consequence.
    Food for thought: if you aren't dead by 2050, you and your entire family will be within a few years from starvation. Now that is a cruel gift to leave for your offspring. ;)
    http://sanfrancisco.ibtimes.com/arti...ger-photos.htm

  3. #53
    not a role model JeffS's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by KrisPistofferson View Post
    Riv Haters tend to portray a ridiculous strawman of ad copy from Peterson, possibly gleaned from other Riv Haters on Bikeforums, and many times just made up on the spot, but they never cite sources.

    Bikesdirect doesn't yet have a magazine that tells you how to wrap twine and attach feathers to a bike, but I can feel it coming...

    strawman: a word used by BF posters who shouldn't be allowed outside of A&S and P&R.

  4. #54
    Fails at being impressed trelhak's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Walter View Post
    Dude #1 pays umpteen thousand dollars for a racer with an unobtainium frame and is thrilled.

    Dude #2 pays umpteen thousand dollars for (subjectvely) heavy Rivendell and is thrilled.

    Question #1: Why do we care so much about Dude #2 and his "cultish" bike?

    Question #2: Why does Grant Peterson care so much about Dude #1 and his "ill-fitting overgeared" bike?

    Question #3: Are we all that different from Peterson and vice-versa?
    Answer 1: Dude #2 will make a strange statement asserting that Dude #1 is somehow foolish for purchasing such an expensive bike when he's not even a professional racer. This will naturally put people on the defensive.

    Answer 2: Grant Peterson is not a bike designer, he's a marketer. He sees someone who's willing to spend umpteen thousand dollars on a bike and wants in on that guy's budget. Let's be honest, while GP may be a very nice guy, he probably doesn't personally give a dead rat's carcass about Dude #1, but is highly interested in where Dude #1 invests his cycling-allocated money.

    Answer 3: Unless you've had a cycling religion formed around you, you are very different from Grant Peterson.
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  5. #55
    Immoderator KrisPistofferson's Avatar
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    The marketing techniques we like are okay; racer x flies across cobblestones with a grimace of determination, three feet of seatpost, bars level with ankles, carbon fiber frame with Kryptonite lugs and a millimeter clearance between the fork and the 700x21c tires. This gives everyone a *****, but someone who tries to keep a niche market alive for bikes you can comfortably ride in everyday clothes, he's compared to David Koresh. That makes good sense.

    Rivendell bikes are terrible, when you judge them in the context of racing bikes. When you wrap your head around the fact that not everyone wants Pantani's bike, then you might quit experiencing the tunnel vision that makes you hate. Despite all the hyperbole on this thread, Peterson has never spoken against racers or racer wanna-bees, he just talks about some of the lamer consequences of the cycling market being caught between MTB and road racing.

    Things have definitely changed the last couple years, but I remember a few years ago when all the big companies had were either road or mountain bikes, with a few super-fugly "hybrid" or "comfort" bikes wedged in between. At that point Rivendell, Peter White and Sheldon Brown were just about the only people keeping that knuckle-dragging spirit alive that you could have a comfortable, beautiful road bike. Really nothing "cultish" about it, unless the goal of using an adjective like that is because you can't argue your point rationally. (ad hominem)

    I don't hate racers or recumbent guys or even those weirdoes on unicycles, I just don't go for the spaceman aesthetic and like lugs and steel. If you don't like it or consider me part of a dangerous cult, call the FBI and/or eat me.

  6. #56
    The Truth Ih8lucky13's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by KrisPistofferson View Post
    The marketing techniques we like are okay; racer x flies across cobblestones with a grimace of determination, three feet of seatpost, bars level with ankles, carbon fiber frame with Kryptonite lugs and a millimeter clearance between the fork and the 700x21c tires. This gives everyone a *****, but someone who tries to keep a niche market alive for bikes you can comfortably ride in everyday clothes, he's compared to David Koresh. That makes good sense.

    Rivendell bikes are terrible, when you judge them in the context of racing bikes. When you wrap your head around the fact that not everyone wants Pantani's bike, then you might quit experiencing the tunnel vision that makes you hate. Despite all the hyperbole on this thread, Peterson has never spoken against racers or racer wanna-bees, he just talks about some of the lamer consequences of the cycling market being caught between MTB and road racing.

    Things have definitely changed the last couple years, but I remember a few years ago when all the big companies had were either road or mountain bikes, with a few super-fugly "hybrid" or "comfort" bikes wedged in between. At that point Rivendell, Peter White and Sheldon Brown were just about the only people keeping that knuckle-dragging spirit alive that you could have a comfortable, beautiful road bike. Really nothing "cultish" about it, unless the goal of using an adjective like that is because you can't argue your point rationally. (ad hominem)

    I don't hate racers or recumbent guys or even those weirdoes on unicycles, I just don't go for the spaceman aesthetic and like lugs and steel. If you don't like it or consider me part of a dangerous cult, call the FBI and/or eat me.
    You don't even own a Rivendell. Another good troll.

  7. #57
    not a role model JeffS's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by KrisPistofferson View Post
    At that point Rivendell, Peter White and Sheldon Brown were just about the only people keeping that knuckle-dragging spirit alive that you could have a comfortable, beautiful road bike.
    And while Grant discourages you [ooh strawman, strawman... ] from buying anything else, Peter and Sheldon have embraced all forms of cycling.

    I don't blame him for establishing his niche, and I hope he's making money with it. It's the editorials that make me roll my eyes.

  8. #58
    Fails at being impressed trelhak's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by KrisPistofferson View Post
    Rivendell bikes are terrible, when you judge them in the context of racing bikes. When you wrap your head around the fact that not everyone wants Pantani's bike, then you might quit experiencing the tunnel vision that makes you hate. ... If you don't like it or consider me part of a dangerous cult, call the FBI and/or eat me.
    Riv bikes are terrible as racing bikes compared to modern racing bikes. No one disputes that. In fact, I haven't actually ever heard anyone say, "Pfft, who needs a Rivendell? My DeRosa is like half its weight and is so much faster."

    To castigate an entire group of people for a comparison that no one has actually made is unfair, and also delusional.

    I am judging and comparing Rivendells against other classically styled touring bikes. When in apples-to-apples comparisons, Rivs actually fall a little flat.

    A Rivendell compared to a Trek 520, a Surly Long Haul Trucker or Crosscheck, a Waterford, a Kogswell, or even an old Bridgestone is a more than fair comparison. In that comparison, the conclusion that stands out above others is: "How badly do you need pretty lugs? How badly do you need a quill stem? How much more are you willing to pay for these? Are you sure that you're buying a better bike and not just brand prestige? Can't you basically get the same effect with a few adjustments to your dad's old Peugeot?"

    I'm not "hating" on Grant Peterson, I'm not "hating" on Rivendell or Rivendell owners or people who want to be Rivendell owners. (The only hate here is coming from KrisP's flame-bait commentary.) Nor am I hating on non-racers (I commute daily) I'm not hating on lugs or steel. (Only one of my bikes isn't steel and only one of my steel bikes is TIG'ed. ...on an aside, I actually prefer fillet brazing, though, when it comes to artful tube-joining.)

    What you're mistaking for hatred is suspicion and defensiveness at being told that I'm wrong by some marketing guy and his customers because I wear spandex pants and carbon-soled shoes when riding my fender-less, sixteen-pound bike with its iron-hard saddle mounted a good six inches above the level of my handlebars; and I that pay attention to my cadence and heart rate more than I do to the lovely New England scenery around me.

    To get back to the original point of this thread and its poll: BikesDirect and Rivendell are both marketers, and in that, operate in a shady realm of deception. BikesDirect disguises good-quality, but Chinese-made bikes with historic French names (who wants "Wei Qing" on their downtube, after all); Rivendell 'tricks' customers into not asking certain questions about weight, tubeset, and cost-effectiveness by flooding the customer's consciousness with screeds on how they've cornered the true path to cycling happiness.

    In that, I think Riv is more deceptive than BD. I don't like to be lied to, but if I have to pick between two liars (I mean, marketers), I'm going to pick the one with the less unctuous smile.
    Last edited by trelhak; 05-22-08 at 03:48 PM.
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  9. #59
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    Ah, I think you guys are just jealous because we ride beautiful, well-proportioned, sensible road bikes of a timeless design. You should go back to texting each other about the latest Madone or chocolate-colored fixie with gold trimmed metal parts and leave those of us with more mature tastes alone.

  10. #60
    Fails at being impressed trelhak's Avatar
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    That's just cold.
    "Quäl dich, du Sau!" (trans.: "Suffer, you swine!") - Udo Bölts

    Storck | Ocean | SOMEC

  11. #61
    Immoderator KrisPistofferson's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by JeffS View Post
    strawman: a word used by BF posters who shouldn't be allowed outside of A&S and P&R.
    The word's been around longer than Bikeforums, guy. You should look it up, at least so you know the name of what you're doing when you post.

  12. #62
    Certifiable Bike "Expert"
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    Grant Peterson is a bike designer and a marketer.
    I don't even use the offensive term "Fred." -- Sheldon "All Cyclists Are My Friends" Brown (1944-2008)

  13. #63
    Fails at being impressed trelhak's Avatar
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    Picking component mixes is really not design. Nor is copying early 20th century French bicycles really "design" per se. (He has admitted this.)

    Moustache Bars and 650B wheels on a mountain bike may or may not be design, but it is pretty schizo.
    "Quäl dich, du Sau!" (trans.: "Suffer, you swine!") - Udo Bölts

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  14. #64
    Senior Member Rutnick's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by BikeWise1 View Post
    Yeah, and who also actually want 650B wheels.

    randonneur riders but you probably wouldn't know anything about a 600K ride.

    MTB riders. It is for people that prefer more traditional MTB frame geometry and want a bigger wheel.

    http://www.bikeman.com/content/view/1349/33/


    but hey...I guess you are informed.

  15. #65
    Immoderator KrisPistofferson's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ih8lucky13 View Post
    You don't even own a Rivendell. Another good troll.
    My main ride is a heavy as hell LHT with (gasp) clipless pedals and (gasp) a threadless headset, but I'd probably get an Atlantis if my finances would let me. I don't use twine and shellac nor do I wear a Sherlock Holmes cap, a cardigan and a monocle when I ride, but I don't get the irrational hatred some people seem to have towards some of the silly stuff in the Reader and the catalogs.

    A lot of you post some of the things written out of context, seeming to think Grant P. takes himself extremely seriously as some sort of guru, I've never gotten that impression, and he's interviewed everyone from Sheldon Brown, Richard Schwinn, that Yaeger chick from Bianchi, to the CEO of Shimano. Some of the evil new technology that you guys seem to think is verboten is actually in the catalogs, if you guys had cared to look. I guess it's all about choices. You guys just like to tilt at windmills, and it's amusing, and I'm sure the free marketing has had a substantial positive effect on Rivendell's profits over the years.

    There are pictures in the Reader of all kinds of bikes, and all kinds of riders, with all kinds of equipment. He sells a certain type of bike, the catalog reflects this, but the RR is about cycling in general. Needless to say, if it were a "cult" or "religion" this would not be so. But maybe Peterson is an evil mastermind, like Dr. Doom, and he's just fooling us...

    So yeah, the word "strawman" works just fine.

  16. #66
    Senior Member Rutnick's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Phantoj View Post
    Grant Peterson is a bike designer and a marketer.
    And can make a frame and has built some of the most classic bikes from the late 80s and early 90s. The only real downside is that he's still there.

  17. #67
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    Grant Peterson is cycling's L. Ron Hubbard...minus the schizophrenia, and substituting 'lugged steel' for 'spirit auditing."
    Absolutely hilarious. But what is the Rivendell equivalent of "Battlefield Earth"?
    Regards, MillCreek
    Snohomish County, Washington USA

  18. #68
    Fails at being impressed trelhak's Avatar
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    Most Riv frames weigh about what a hard-cover version of "Battlefield Earth" weighs.

    The movie was a box-office bomb and you can't spell 'Bombadil' without 'bomb', so by that coincidence, I'll pick 'Bombadil'.

    (Also, I think the Bombadil is the biggest 'reach' for Rivendell. The Atlantis is more than capable on anything that doesn't require suspension and most Riv fans are 'mature' enough to recognize that suspension is really nice in more challenging terrain.)
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  19. #69
    Senior Member halfspeed's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by AEO View Post
    3, 4. Why should I get any less just because my religion says so? The thing is though, they don't give you an option to do what you want to do with your gears. "We like it this way, we're only going to sell you what we like because to do otherwise is crazy and not worth our time and effort to stock it."
    So I can get Trek to build me a Madone with barcons, a Sugino triple, fat tires and an MTB rear end?

    Of course not. Because it's crazy to do so and not worth Trek's time and effort to stock it.

  20. #70
    Senior Member halfspeed's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by trelhak View Post
    Can't you basically get the same effect with a few adjustments to your dad's old Peugeot?"
    It depends upon what you mean by "basically the same". The Riv will be lighter, new, and have different geometry.

  21. #71
    Fails at being impressed trelhak's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by halfspeed View Post
    It depends upon what you mean by "basically the same". The Riv will be lighter, new, and have different geometry.
    Lighter? Lighter doesn't really matter that much, according to Riv literature. The geometry is basically that of a Rambouillet. Nothing crazy, but then, Riv really doesn't bother working themselves into a frenzy about a half-degree of seat tube angle either. Just good, old-fashioned, "anything you need it to do, it can do" bikes.

    An old Peugeot embodies all the virtues Rivendell espouses. It's got fenders, lights, platform pedals, a rear rack. The stem can be easily raised to be a little above the saddle. Nothing on it is made of plastic. All the parts for it are basically indestructible and last forever with even the barest hint of maintenance. It's got pretty nice paint and nice lugs. It's even got a kickstand. It doesn't have an absurd number of gears and nothing on it is built to an oddball standard to where any shop on the planet can't easily fix it or get replacement parts. Nothing on it is grossly obsolete and won't likely be going obsolete any time soon. It's even capable of mild off-roading and, since it's been around since at least the 1970's, you know it'll last forever.

    Forget a Rivendell, I'm going to get on Craigslist and find an old Peugeot.
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  22. #72
    Super Moderator BillyD's Avatar
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    I must be a rocket scientist because I have the perfect solution: If you don't like Rivendell, don't go to their web site or consider their bikes. Duuuuhh!!

    Grant P. & Riv aren't hurting me . . . I'm doing my thing and he's doing his, whatever the F' that is. If he's not crossing me I don't give a F'.

    I have another revelation: Grant P. & Riv don't give a F' about you guys not liking them. You represent less than 0.001 percent of all bikers in America. Even less! Way less! You can't hurt him by not buying his bikes, so why waste so much energy hating him? If you don't like him, don't buy his bikes. Move on with your lives. Real simple.
    Where else but the internet can a bunch of cyclists go and be the tough guy? - - jdon
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  23. #73
    Fails at being impressed trelhak's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by BillyD View Post
    I must be a rocket scientist because I have the perfect solution: If you don't like Rivendell, don't go to their web site or consider their bikes.
    ...and make every effort possible to avoid the topic of cycling when in the company of known adherents...

    Something just occurred to me:

    The other day, I was refuelling my motorcycle, a Ducati 900SS, which can be considered a 'crotch rocket', when a Harley-Davidson owner, whom I did not know but was also refuelling at the same tank station, walked away from his Road King (a touring motorcycle with windshield, bags and plush suspension) over to me and asked, "Nice sport bike. So, when are you going to sell it and get a 'real' bike, a Harley?" (For those unfamiliar with motorcycles, Ducati is basically the motorcycle equivalent of Ferrari...or Colnago. )

    Rivendell and Harley are kissing cousins!

    Neither really markets a product so much as they sell a 'lifestyle'.

    It's not about the bikes, it's about their vision of the biking ideal, and that is exactly why their customers are so zealous. They're not defending a product, they're defending their lifestyle as well as trying to proselytize. They love their product so much they want you to enjoy it as much as they do, wanting to share their happiness. Concurrently, they get very frustrated and even offended if you don't want to embrace their belief structure.
    "Quäl dich, du Sau!" (trans.: "Suffer, you swine!") - Udo Bölts

    Storck | Ocean | SOMEC

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    Quote Originally Posted by Longfemur View Post
    Ah, I think you guys are just jealous because we ride beautiful, well-proportioned, sensible road bikes of a timeless design. You should go back to texting each other about the latest Madone or chocolate-colored fixie with gold trimmed metal parts and leave those of us with more mature tastes alone.
    That was a work of art and hasn't gotten any credit. Well played, sirrah. Well played!

    I don't like Rivendell because of the implied snobbishness. When I compare them to, say, Kogswell, a maker of modernized French porteur bikes with 650b wheels, the differences are obvious.

    If you look at their literature, they avoid all the romantic rambling and preaching undertones. They say what it's useful and good for, and have some testimonials, and then go into a very lengthy performance test of the three models of the bike.

    It's about 'this is what it's good at, this is what it isn't, and you figure out if its' for you.' It doesn't try to swoon you with tales of a better era that's been eclipsed by the scary modern world. I just plain distrust that sort of anti-progress romanticism. Especially when there are so many examples of modern bikes that do everything a Rivendell tries to take sole credit for.

  25. #75
    Senior Member halfspeed's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by trelhak View Post
    Lighter? Lighter doesn't really matter that much, according to Riv literature.
    Riv generally specs better tubing than that on most older lugged steel bikes, unless the old lugged steel you're comparing is SLX or 753.


    Quote Originally Posted by trelhak View Post
    The geometry is basically that of a Rambouillet.
    Not really. Riv's geometry isn't as traditional as it might seem at first glance. They focus on handlebar height and stability.

    For the former, they lower the BB, extend the head tube and slope the top tube. This means that a smaller rider can fit on a bigger frame without comprimising reach or standover while getting the handlebars higher.

    For the latter, they use long chainstays and lots of trail. So it won't turn quickly, but you'll hold a line all day with little effort.

    These features might not appeal to you (they don't do it for me either), but they are what they are and they have a market that appreciates it.

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