Cyclist going to jail for no I.D.? This is crazy!
05-23-08, 03:53 AM
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Big crime problem is cops and politicians that trample the constitution and violate your civil rights on a regular basis. The even bigger crime is when citizens put up with it and let politicians who condone this behavior keep their jobs.
The biggest crime of all is, "It's not my problem," "someone else will cake care of it," "it doesn't directly affect me, so why should I care?"
The biggest crime of all is, "It's not my problem," "someone else will cake care of it," "it doesn't directly affect me, so why should I care?"
05-23-08, 03:54 AM
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Jupi, you're armed and dangerous, just shoot anybody who tries to pull you over.
05-23-08, 04:31 AM
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I think wearing "team" clothing gets you alot of negative attention.
Was the cyclist disrespectfull to the officer when he was approached. (smart ars)? Having a bad attitude will add to your problems.
Last edited by RichinPeoria; 05-23-08 at 04:45 AM.
05-23-08, 04:44 AM
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Can I say something really political that will undoubtedly get a rise out of certain Americans? Yes?
Okay: Why is it that every time I turn around in this forum there's yet another story being reported about either a clampdown by the authorities on something (obviously cycling related in this forum) or some kind of restriction on what one might characterize as personal freedoms in the United States?
Don't Americans thump their chests and proclaim loudly that they are living in the "land of the free?" Well then, why the aitch do you have all of this axxholery being perpetrated by law enforcement types all the time? And how do you claim to be a freedom-loving land when you actually have a law, get this, requiring you to carry personal ID at all times? This is freedom? Sounds more like 1984, for goodness sakes.
You know, some of you California and Florida types like to lord it over people because you get mild weather in January. Well, when it's actually January there are moments up here in Canada when people do indeed feel envious. However, here's the key: January only lasts 30 days, but living in a place where they throw you in jail if you aren't carrying your wallet or where ridiculous, jagoff coppers strut around making a grand show of their authority lasts year round.
Unless you leave, of course. There but for the grace of gawd and the good sense of my grandparents to choose this great country over yours go I.
This rant is over.
Okay: Why is it that every time I turn around in this forum there's yet another story being reported about either a clampdown by the authorities on something (obviously cycling related in this forum) or some kind of restriction on what one might characterize as personal freedoms in the United States?
Don't Americans thump their chests and proclaim loudly that they are living in the "land of the free?" Well then, why the aitch do you have all of this axxholery being perpetrated by law enforcement types all the time? And how do you claim to be a freedom-loving land when you actually have a law, get this, requiring you to carry personal ID at all times? This is freedom? Sounds more like 1984, for goodness sakes.
You know, some of you California and Florida types like to lord it over people because you get mild weather in January. Well, when it's actually January there are moments up here in Canada when people do indeed feel envious. However, here's the key: January only lasts 30 days, but living in a place where they throw you in jail if you aren't carrying your wallet or where ridiculous, jagoff coppers strut around making a grand show of their authority lasts year round.
Unless you leave, of course. There but for the grace of gawd and the good sense of my grandparents to choose this great country over yours go I.
This rant is over.
What next?
05-23-08, 05:18 AM
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05-23-08, 05:32 AM
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When I was a kid, admittedly a long time ago. One of the things people would say about Russia is that proof the citizens were not free is that they had to have "papers" with them at all times.
05-23-08, 05:45 AM
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I think you are irresponsible if you DON'T carry an I.D. when riding. If you are involved in an accident, and unconscious, how do you expect the emergency personnel to identify you?.....Also, if the rules of the road apply to all who use the road, doesn't it make sense that the authorities have the right to ask for identification if you are caught breaking the law?.........Don't get me wrong, I think this sherrif and his department are going too far, but carrying an I.D. makes sense no matter what the situation. I, personally, never leave home without an ID, money, and a cell phone on any of my rides. Only in races do I ride without those items.
05-23-08, 05:49 AM
#83
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05-23-08, 05:54 AM
#84
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Btw,m dont those nominal fees get you? they start off being nominal and soon rack up when a whole bunch of riders are on board.
05-23-08, 05:54 AM
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I read the story, can't find the problem. You are a user of the road, you are subject to the laws of the road. In all instances, everywhere that I'm aware of in the U.S., if you can't establish your identity, you can be detained. It's not a primary offense, meaning that you can't be stopped to see if you are carrying ID, but if you are stopped for another cause, you are subject to establishing your identity.
Like I said, I can't find the problem. I always have ID on me when I ride. It's not that much of a burden.
Like I said, I can't find the problem. I always have ID on me when I ride. It's not that much of a burden.
+1
05-23-08, 06:35 AM
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I have a friend that is a state trooper. He was telling me one day how many people just ask for tickets. It's the whole power thing. People get defensive and make the decision easy for the officer. If one wants to butt heads with law, that is their choice. I'd rather not have a ticket. I've driven away from being pulled over more often than not without a ticket. Be nice, play dumb. If that doesn't work, you would have gotten a ticket anyway.
05-23-08, 06:42 AM
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"Let us hope our weapons are never needed --but do not forget what the common people knew when they demanded the Bill of Rights: An armed citizenry is the first defense, the best defense, and the final defense against tyranny. If guns are outlawed, only the government will have guns. Only the police, the secret police, the military, the hired servants of our rulers. Only the government -- and a few outlaws. I intend to be among the outlaws" - Edward Abbey
"Let us hope our weapons are never needed --but do not forget what the common people knew when they demanded the Bill of Rights: An armed citizenry is the first defense, the best defense, and the final defense against tyranny. If guns are outlawed, only the government will have guns. Only the police, the secret police, the military, the hired servants of our rulers. Only the government -- and a few outlaws. I intend to be among the outlaws" - Edward Abbey
05-23-08, 06:46 AM
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I was arrested for 'indecent exposure' by some moronic cop on the local bike trail 5 years ago when he saw me coming out from behind a tree after taking a whiz (in the middle of nowhere). The assistant D.A. laughed it out of court, the charges were dismissed immediately.
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"Let us hope our weapons are never needed --but do not forget what the common people knew when they demanded the Bill of Rights: An armed citizenry is the first defense, the best defense, and the final defense against tyranny. If guns are outlawed, only the government will have guns. Only the police, the secret police, the military, the hired servants of our rulers. Only the government -- and a few outlaws. I intend to be among the outlaws" - Edward Abbey
"Let us hope our weapons are never needed --but do not forget what the common people knew when they demanded the Bill of Rights: An armed citizenry is the first defense, the best defense, and the final defense against tyranny. If guns are outlawed, only the government will have guns. Only the police, the secret police, the military, the hired servants of our rulers. Only the government -- and a few outlaws. I intend to be among the outlaws" - Edward Abbey
05-23-08, 06:49 AM
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Ok here's the thing. Just about every weenie here would not dream of going out riding without a helmet...but you'd leave your ID at home?
"A cyclist was found dead by the side of the road today...he had no ID, so he has not been identified, but, thank god he was wearing a helmet. Details at 11."
"A cyclist was found dead by the side of the road today...he had no ID, so he has not been identified, but, thank god he was wearing a helmet. Details at 11."
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"Let us hope our weapons are never needed --but do not forget what the common people knew when they demanded the Bill of Rights: An armed citizenry is the first defense, the best defense, and the final defense against tyranny. If guns are outlawed, only the government will have guns. Only the police, the secret police, the military, the hired servants of our rulers. Only the government -- and a few outlaws. I intend to be among the outlaws" - Edward Abbey
"Let us hope our weapons are never needed --but do not forget what the common people knew when they demanded the Bill of Rights: An armed citizenry is the first defense, the best defense, and the final defense against tyranny. If guns are outlawed, only the government will have guns. Only the police, the secret police, the military, the hired servants of our rulers. Only the government -- and a few outlaws. I intend to be among the outlaws" - Edward Abbey
05-23-08, 07:00 AM
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05-23-08, 07:46 AM
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wow, strong support for the police state. give me a break, if motorcycles can ride side by side then bikes can too. if you are going to treat a bike like a vehicle then it stands to reason that the bike can take the lane (in the absence of a bike lane) and therefore the *****hole sheriff shouldnt be writing tix. it should be my choice whether i carry id and going to jail and having bike impounded is unreasonable & a waste of public resources.
05-23-08, 07:51 AM
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05-23-08, 07:54 AM
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Most states require anybody over the age of 18 to carry Govt issued ID on them at all times. This has nothing to do with cycling.
Last edited by wfrogge; 05-23-08 at 07:59 AM.
05-23-08, 08:26 AM
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https://www.flexyourrights.org/freque...d_questions#07
7. When do I have to show ID?
This is a tricky issue. As a general principle, citizens who are minding their own business are not obligated to "show their papers" to police. In fact, there is no law requiring citizens to carry identification of any kind.
Nonetheless, carrying an ID is required when you’re driving or flying. Driving without a license is a crime, and no one is allowed to board an airplane without first presenting an ID. These requirements have been upheld on the premise that individuals who prefer not to carry ID can choose not to drive or fly.
From here, ID laws only get more complicated. In Hiibel v. Sixth Judicial District Court of Nevada, the Supreme Court upheld state laws requiring citizens to disclose their identity to police when officers have reasonable suspicion to believe criminal activity may be taking place. Commonly known as 'stop and identify' statutes, these laws permit police to arrest criminal suspects who refuse to identify themselves.
Currently the following states have stop and identify laws: AL, AR, CO, DE, FL, GA, IL, KS, LA, MO, MT, NE, NH, NM, NV, NY, ND, RI, UT, VT, WI
Regardless of your state's law, keep in mind that police can never compel you to identify yourself without reasonable suspicion to believe you're involved in criminal activity. Rather than asking the officer if he/she has reasonable suspicion, test it yourself by asking if you're free to go.
If the officer says you’re free to go, leave immediately and refrain from answering any additional questions.
If the officer detains you, you'll have to decide whether withholding your identity is worth the possibility of arrest or a prolonged detention. In cases of mistaken identity, revealing who you are might help to resolve the situation quickly. On the other hand, if you're on parole in California, for example, revealing your identity could lead to a legal search. Knowing your state's laws can help you make the best choice.
Keep in mind that the officer's decision to detain you will not always hold up in court. ‘Reasonable suspicion' is a vague evidentiary standard, which lends itself to mistakes on the officer's part. If you're searched or arrested following an officer's ID request, always contact an attorney to discuss the incident and explore your legal options.
05-23-08, 08:28 AM
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While I am sure this will not end it, there is so much BS around here, let me give this from a true legal standpoint.
1) There is no law in Oregon or any other state that requires adults to carry ID. To the contrary there is Federal case law (not sure if its SCOTUS or District) that says you don't have to.
2) The original article does not as some have claimed say that you must carry ID. The quote from the Sheriff is that you must be able to identify yourself.
There is a difference.
3) An officer who stops a bicycylist for no probable cause and demands a physical ID has violated their civil rights. An officer can ask, but no probable cause = casual encounter = no obligation on the part of the person contacted to speak.
4) An officer who stops a bicyclist for probable cause (ie riding two abreast or stop sign infraction) has every right to demand that you identify yourself in a reasonable manner for purposes of a citation. This does not neccessarily mean you must carry an ID, just identify yourself.
Acceptable means include your driver's license number and/or name and date of birth which can be cross-checked to a physical description/address/record, etc...
5) The intent here is that an officer not pull over a cyclist and have the cyclist give some BS name. If you are pulled over and give a BS name that doesn't match, you will go to jail. If you are 30 years old on a $3000 bike and say that your name doesn't come up because you don't have a driver's license, never had a ticket and never had an ID card, you will most likely go to jail.
Any other questions regarding police officer contacts and ID?
I am here to help...
-Z
1) There is no law in Oregon or any other state that requires adults to carry ID. To the contrary there is Federal case law (not sure if its SCOTUS or District) that says you don't have to.
2) The original article does not as some have claimed say that you must carry ID. The quote from the Sheriff is that you must be able to identify yourself.
There is a difference.
3) An officer who stops a bicycylist for no probable cause and demands a physical ID has violated their civil rights. An officer can ask, but no probable cause = casual encounter = no obligation on the part of the person contacted to speak.
4) An officer who stops a bicyclist for probable cause (ie riding two abreast or stop sign infraction) has every right to demand that you identify yourself in a reasonable manner for purposes of a citation. This does not neccessarily mean you must carry an ID, just identify yourself.
Acceptable means include your driver's license number and/or name and date of birth which can be cross-checked to a physical description/address/record, etc...
5) The intent here is that an officer not pull over a cyclist and have the cyclist give some BS name. If you are pulled over and give a BS name that doesn't match, you will go to jail. If you are 30 years old on a $3000 bike and say that your name doesn't come up because you don't have a driver's license, never had a ticket and never had an ID card, you will most likely go to jail.
Any other questions regarding police officer contacts and ID?
I am here to help...
-Z
05-23-08, 08:29 AM
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Americans (and every one else in the world for that matter) have been systematically conditioned over the last 50 years to accept and even WANT to be slaves of the State.
The U.S. is already a "Police State" (and so is the U.K.). If you don't know what the definition of what a "police state" is, go look it up. Better yet, go read George Orwells "1984" and then look at all the similarities.
9/11 was just an excuse to make the constitution obsolete. We no longer have the 1st (freedom of speech, yeah right... tell that to anyone who opposes the war or who disagrees with the gov't), 2nd (law abiding New Orleans residents were disarmed, house to house style, by National Guardsmen and "private" gov't military personel at gunpoint), 3rd and 5th amendments.
With the Patriot Act, Military Commissions Act and several more disturbing "Executive Orders", the U.S. is on the verge of dictatorship. Go read the ENTIRE Patriot Act (something congress never did before approving it) and then go weep. Freedom is just an illusion.
Oh and by the way, people are getting harassed, put on special "lists" (such as extra security scrutiny lists or no fly lists at airports) and even called TERRORISTS for even mentioning the "Constitution" & or "Bill of Rights". You will never see stories like that on mainstream media but it is happening.
Americans are giving up their civil liberties in the name of security.
If you care at all about your country, being free etc...
Go educate yourself. There are several really good books on the subject.
I suggest:
"War on the middle class" by Lou Dobbs
"A Nation of Sheep" by Judge Andrew Napolitano
"The End of America" by Naomi Wolf
"The Revolution" by Ron Paul
The U.S. is already a "Police State" (and so is the U.K.). If you don't know what the definition of what a "police state" is, go look it up. Better yet, go read George Orwells "1984" and then look at all the similarities.
9/11 was just an excuse to make the constitution obsolete. We no longer have the 1st (freedom of speech, yeah right... tell that to anyone who opposes the war or who disagrees with the gov't), 2nd (law abiding New Orleans residents were disarmed, house to house style, by National Guardsmen and "private" gov't military personel at gunpoint), 3rd and 5th amendments.
With the Patriot Act, Military Commissions Act and several more disturbing "Executive Orders", the U.S. is on the verge of dictatorship. Go read the ENTIRE Patriot Act (something congress never did before approving it) and then go weep. Freedom is just an illusion.
Oh and by the way, people are getting harassed, put on special "lists" (such as extra security scrutiny lists or no fly lists at airports) and even called TERRORISTS for even mentioning the "Constitution" & or "Bill of Rights". You will never see stories like that on mainstream media but it is happening.
Americans are giving up their civil liberties in the name of security.
If you care at all about your country, being free etc...
Go educate yourself. There are several really good books on the subject.
I suggest:
"War on the middle class" by Lou Dobbs
"A Nation of Sheep" by Judge Andrew Napolitano
"The End of America" by Naomi Wolf
"The Revolution" by Ron Paul
Can I say something really political that will undoubtedly get a rise out of certain Americans? Yes?
Okay: Why is it that every time I turn around in this forum there's yet another story being reported about either a clampdown by the authorities on something (obviously cycling related in this forum) or some kind of restriction on what one might characterize as personal freedoms in the United States?
Don't Americans thump their chests and proclaim loudly that they are living in the "land of the free?" Well then, why the aitch do you have all of this axxholery being perpetrated by law enforcement types all the time? And how do you claim to be a freedom-loving land when you actually have a law, get this, requiring you to carry personal ID at all times? This is freedom? Sounds more like 1984, for goodness sakes.
You know, some of you California and Florida types like to lord it over people because you get mild weather in January. Well, when it's actually January there are moments up here in Canada when people do indeed feel envious. However, here's the key: January only lasts 30 days, but living in a place where they throw you in jail if you aren't carrying your wallet or where ridiculous, jagoff coppers strut around making a grand show of their authority lasts year round.
Unless you leave, of course. There but for the grace of gawd and the good sense of my grandparents to choose this great country over yours go I.
This rant is over.
Okay: Why is it that every time I turn around in this forum there's yet another story being reported about either a clampdown by the authorities on something (obviously cycling related in this forum) or some kind of restriction on what one might characterize as personal freedoms in the United States?
Don't Americans thump their chests and proclaim loudly that they are living in the "land of the free?" Well then, why the aitch do you have all of this axxholery being perpetrated by law enforcement types all the time? And how do you claim to be a freedom-loving land when you actually have a law, get this, requiring you to carry personal ID at all times? This is freedom? Sounds more like 1984, for goodness sakes.
You know, some of you California and Florida types like to lord it over people because you get mild weather in January. Well, when it's actually January there are moments up here in Canada when people do indeed feel envious. However, here's the key: January only lasts 30 days, but living in a place where they throw you in jail if you aren't carrying your wallet or where ridiculous, jagoff coppers strut around making a grand show of their authority lasts year round.
Unless you leave, of course. There but for the grace of gawd and the good sense of my grandparents to choose this great country over yours go I.
This rant is over.
__________________
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Fully custom carbon bikes
940-442-3344
Last edited by ZXiMan; 05-23-08 at 08:46 AM.
05-23-08, 08:41 AM
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It seemed as if the sherrif, while technically correct, was primariily trying to show his contempt for cyclists. especially note the dig at Boulder cyclists. The comments gave additional insights. I've ridden around Larimer county as well as Boulder county. If there's a well defined bike lane then 2 abreast is acceptable, if there is not then you are pushing the Darwinian enevelope to ride two abreast. Its unsafe and will piss off one out of every 50 or so drivers.
Dave Moulton wrote a nice short story on the bicyclist/driver issue recently.
https://davesbikeblog.blogspot.com/
Dave Moulton wrote a nice short story on the bicyclist/driver issue recently.
https://davesbikeblog.blogspot.com/
05-23-08, 08:46 AM
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05-23-08, 08:48 AM
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05-23-08, 08:50 AM
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Americans (and every one else in the world for that matter) have been systematically conditioned over the last 50 years to accept and even WANT to be slaves of the State.
The U.S. is already a "Police State" (and so is the U.K.). If you don't know what the definition of what a "police state" is, go look it up. Better yet, go read George Orwells "1984" and then look at all the similarities.
9/11 was just an excuse to make the constitution obsolete. We no longer have the 1st (freedom of speech, yeah right... tell that to anyone who opposes the war or who disagrees with the gov't), 2nd (law abiding New Orleans residents were disarmed, house to house style, by National Guardsmen and "private" gov't military personel at gunpoint), 3rd and 5th amendments.
With the Patriot Act, Military Commissions Act and several more disturbing "Executive Orders", the U.S. is on the verge of dictatorship. Go read the ENTIRE Patriot Act (something congress never did before approving it) and then go weep. Freedom is just an illusion.
Oh and by the way, people are getting harassed, put on special "lists" (such as extra security scrutiny lists or no fly lists at airports) and even called TERRORISTS for even mentioning the "Constitution" & or "Bill of Rights". You will never see stories like that on mainstream media but it is happening.
Americans are giving up their civil liberties in the name of security.
If you care at all about your country, being free etc...
Go educate yourself. There are several really good books on the subject.
I suggest:
"War on the middle class" by Lou Dobbs
"A Nation of Sheep" by Judge Andrew Napolitano
"The End of America" by Naomi Wolf
"The Revolution" by Ron Paul
The U.S. is already a "Police State" (and so is the U.K.). If you don't know what the definition of what a "police state" is, go look it up. Better yet, go read George Orwells "1984" and then look at all the similarities.
9/11 was just an excuse to make the constitution obsolete. We no longer have the 1st (freedom of speech, yeah right... tell that to anyone who opposes the war or who disagrees with the gov't), 2nd (law abiding New Orleans residents were disarmed, house to house style, by National Guardsmen and "private" gov't military personel at gunpoint), 3rd and 5th amendments.
With the Patriot Act, Military Commissions Act and several more disturbing "Executive Orders", the U.S. is on the verge of dictatorship. Go read the ENTIRE Patriot Act (something congress never did before approving it) and then go weep. Freedom is just an illusion.
Oh and by the way, people are getting harassed, put on special "lists" (such as extra security scrutiny lists or no fly lists at airports) and even called TERRORISTS for even mentioning the "Constitution" & or "Bill of Rights". You will never see stories like that on mainstream media but it is happening.
Americans are giving up their civil liberties in the name of security.
If you care at all about your country, being free etc...
Go educate yourself. There are several really good books on the subject.
I suggest:
"War on the middle class" by Lou Dobbs
"A Nation of Sheep" by Judge Andrew Napolitano
"The End of America" by Naomi Wolf
"The Revolution" by Ron Paul