patentcad

Things change.

Skewer

Yep, Lance generally had the best domestique help in his mountain stage road race wins, but he was all alone against the clock when he won the TT stage climbing up Alp De Huez in 2004. That has to count for something.

patentcad

You would think.

dysFTP

I got a (new) pair of '09 808 tubies for $1550. Good deal?

gsteinb

and yet you're consistently a d-bag.

gsteinb

In any event I just opened the box to my Cane Creek Sprint 85 track wheels.

patentcad

So where are the pics? Inquiring dbags want to know.

gsteinb

No tires or anything yet. Last time I posted pics of them Blotto pointed out how ugly the are. I figure they're usually going to be so fast no one will be able to see what they look like anyway.

Waldo

It's funny to see various versions of that data posted on various forums, particularly the multitude of times Jason has posted it on Slowtwitch. The really funny part is that he still hasn't explained the 82 mm rim data, though each time he posts someone has asked why that 82 mm data doesn't come close to any data we've published for the 808 nor that has been published by independent sources (search Slowtwitch if you don't believe me-they even enacted a new policy regarding posting of data as a result of his posts). Here's just one instance, with yet another failure to explain the discrepancy.

https://forum.slowtwitch.com/gforum.c...engine#2101707

Independent data from that post:


We've got literally dozens of data sets from a multitude of wind tunnels that agree with the Tour data and look nothing like the Hed data. I have to give Hed credit as they are one of the few other companies that actually do test in the wind tunnel, but I expect more from them.

I can only assume, as Josh said, that the 82 mm data is not our rim but rather one of the various Asian-sourced 82 mm rims available.

As can be said for the Hed wheels, lateral stiffness of our wheels increases with increasing rim depth. An 808 is around 12% stiffer than a 404 laterally, if I recall my numbers correctly. Other than the common misconception regarding lateral stiffness of these wheels, one key issue is the ride qualities of these wheels. Note that we've got a separate patent dealing with the benefit of the toroidal rim profile and our laminate construction and material usage that allows the rim to act effectively as a leaf spring, damping some of the high frequency, low amplitude vibrations. I can't seem to find the charts right now but the 404 yields an approximately 12% reduction in vibration while the 808 affords a 15% reduction relative to your standard 32-spoke training wheel (I believe it was an Open Pro rim on a Dura Ace hub with DB spokes but that was before my time).

Sorry for the thread hijack, just wanted to address some misinformation.

531Aussie

well, now that you're here..... this test on the Vuelta site has always bothered me


https://www.vueltausa.com/Merchant2/g...eel%20Test.pdf

The claims just seem outrageous to me, compared to anything else I've seen

cslone

I keep seeing Zipp say that theirs is faster, but I've never seen a Hed vs Zipp independent study done.

jccaclimber

Disks do sound pretty cool. the Deep Hed3s sound pretty cool too.

Waldo

Pretty simple, really-that testing was done at an indoor velodrome.

Long story short, at the low yaw angles that will be seen in this sort of testing (extremely low relative to the typical yaw angles seen for most riders, in this case it is on the order of 0-3 degrees depending on airflow in the building and rider speed), the skin friction drag on a disc wheel results in higher drag values than most aerodynamic wheels, though this changes once you see yaw angles past 3 degrees or so for shallower wheels and up to 13 degrees or so for deeper wheels (like our 1080). It's the same situation with wheels with larger surface areas, like the 808. If you look at lower yaw angle data from tunnels, they are generally quite similar to the data you'll find in this sort of testing-shallower wheels will tend to have lower drag (this is why you see some of the discussion about the MIT aero study with helmets and wheels at zero yaw). In this case, the shallower rim (our 58 mm rim) with 12 spokes will always perform quite well in a test such as this, though it is unrealistic when trying to draw conclusions for real-world riding.

When we've said our wheels are faster we've always addressed the specific yaw ranges in which this is true and those in which it is not true. As I said before, Hed is one of the few other companies that actually spends some time in the tunnel and that is something you have to respect.

That said, any data we have released on Hed or any other competitors has always been in line with data released by the respective manufacturers, which is certainly not the case with this set of Hed data and some that Hed has released in the past.

There is independent data out there, you just have to pay to get it from the source.

Don't get me wrong; I'm not trying to pick on you as I know it's not your data set and you likely wouldn't have thought to compare the alleged Zipp data to past data. I'm just trying to present both sides of the story.

jccaclimber

It's truly a pity your Sram group isn't marketed as SRAM 123. Then you would truly have a bike made of numbers.

permanentjaun

i discussed something similar weeks ago

mrardo

I ride 808's all the time. I have my old wheels but I haven't put them back on yet for anything. The main thing I like about the 808's is how they smooth chipseal/cracked roads. They are like mountain bike tires on bumps and holes. Simular to the difference between an aluminum bike and a carbon fiber.

They are actually better in steady cross winds but gusts from the sides are worse but nothing that I have had trouble controlling. I was riding in a group and got comments on the steady line I was ridning in the wind.

They climb better than my old wheels which was the most unexpected thing about them. They don't seem that much faster but you work less which lets you go faster farther. They roll up on other riders in a pelaton when slowing or downhill which means you have to pay attention to decelerations.

531Aussie

thanks

jmess

More wind tunnel test data with 404s:

https://www.rolfprima.com/techinfo_aero_results.php

Bnjmn

The Rolf data is the wrong shape. There should be a dip around 12.5 degrees, as in the HED graph. The Rolf data is the only one (of many) graphs that does not have that dip.

tanhalt

Pay particular attention to the widths of the tires used on both the tubulars and clinchers in the Rolf data. Tire width matters...

Also, there's actually 2 sets of 404 rim data in that dataset. The Rolf TdF58 wheel is a non-dimpled 404 rim.

Lastly, it looks like they only took data in 5 degree increments...it's tough to observe a "dip" at 12.5 degrees when you only take data at 10 and 15

dysFTP

There ain't no mix up 808's can't fix up.

baker675

does 4 spokes in the back and 8 spokes in the fron make a difference for the clydedale verison for a 231 sprinter??