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  1. #1
    Senior Member MrCrassic's Avatar
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    How to buy a good road bike

    NOTE: I received a lot of feedback about the accuracy of my earlier post, so I'm re-submitting this with the revisions made.

    ================================

    First time buying a road bike? Looking to buy a bike and are unsure of what to get? In this thread, I will try to lay down a few good tips to consider in finding your perfect bike, whether racing or triathlons are in your plans, or you just want to enjoy a nice and relaxing ride.

    NOTE. This is a LONG read, but I constructed it so that you can skim over everything and find a particular item of interest. If any of the veterans have anything to add, please feel free!

    --------------------------------------

    Before anything, here are my two key rules for those just beginning to look:

    1. Know your budget. Having a set budget on buying a new road bike will help you in knowing what you expect to get with your money. Buying your new road bike can be a needlessly expensive endeavor or a great savings, with enough planning on where it is you're looking to spend.

    (EDIT: 8/21/08) It is important to also keep in mind that when purchasing a new road bike (especially from a bike shop), you will want to buy a few additional accessories to make your experience better. This includes, but is not limited to, a helmet, pump, jersey and cycling shorts, socks, etc. These can easily cost over $100, so make sure that your budget allocates some spending for these as well.

    2. Know your motives. Why do you want to buy a road bike? Are you interested in seriously pursuing cycling, or is this going to be a summer activity? Knowing the reasons for your bike purchase will not only help shape your budget better, but will also help you find the right bike for you.

    In addition, one of the most popular questions for new members of this forum is knowing what's a "good" road bike for them. If you know why you want to start cycling, then it's much easier to know what bike will be "good" for you. It may even be possible that a used bike will satisfy your needs, thus saving you money!

    ===================================

    With that covered, here are more in-depth pointers to consider in your purchase:

    1. Local bike shops are best! Buying your bike from the local bike shop gives you a sizeable advantage on selection and customer service that cannot be found in a large department store. Bike shop salespersons can fit the bike to your height and width and give you a ride better tailored to you. Furthermore, bike shops receive higher-quality bikes that are more likely to last longer and need less maintenance in the long-run. Also, most shops offer free labor and discounted parts upon purchase, which is usually never provided by department stores.

    NOTE: If you do decide to buy your first bike from a big store, then it's HIGHLY recommended that you take the bike to a local bike shop for a full overhaul, as it likely that the store worker who assembled your bike may have done it incorrectly.

    2. Do your research.
    Bike shop salespeople will tell you lots of things; that's their job. However, the onus is on you as a consumer to do a bit of research and find out whether their information is valid or not. Bike shops usually have a favored manufacturer, and they will attempt to push that brand out, especially over competing brands.

    3. Frame materials and manufacturers.
    This is a big section, so feel free to skim.

    a. Frame manufacturers

    The main difference between frame manufacturers is their engineering of their frames (and price point). For example, for carbon fiber frames, Trek has their own patended process (Optimum Compaction, Low Void, or OCLV for short), Specialized has their own process, etc. Nobody will ever agree on a single best manufacturer; if that were the case, everybody would buy that brand!

    b. Introduction to frame materials.

    Another big difference between frames (and other components, but frames especially) is their materials composition. There are four stable materials used to build frames: aluminum, carbon fiber composite, titanium and steel.

    Without digressing to materials engineering, here are some key differences between the main materials, borrowed from another website[1]:

    Aluminum

    The Good
    - One-third the density of steel, allowing the use of big tubes
    - Easily formed into aero shapes
    - Even cheap frames can be light
    - Makes a light frame for a big rider
    - Doesn't rust!
    The Bad
    - One-third to one-half the strength of best steels and titanium (can break)
    - One-third the stiffness of any steel, which requires larger diameter tubes
    - Modest fatigue strength
    - Not easily repaired or straightened
    - Big, thin tubes means easy crash damage

    Steel

    The Good
    - Best steel alloys are very strong
    - Best stiffness overall
    - Long-lasting
    - Air-hardened alloys make ultra-high strength affordable
    The Bad
    - Can be heavy - not the materials for big, light frames
    - Rust-prone

    Titanium

    The Good
    - Half as dense as steel, making the lightest most resilient frames
    - As strong as most steels
    - Wont rust - no paint needed
    - Good fatigue strength
    - Makes a light frame for a large rider
    The Bad
    - Half as stiff as steel (and known to be somewhat flexy)
    - Difficult to repair
    - Expensive

    Carbon Fiber

    The Good
    - Readily molded into exotic shapes
    - Excellent fatigue strength; no rust
    - Strength and stiffness are controllable
    - Low density and high strength make very light strong frames possible
    The Bad
    - Expensive raw material
    - A bomb if poorly designed or made (too stiff or too flexible)
    - Can be "notch sensitive" (prone to breakage)
    c. Frame building process and cost

    Another big contributor to the overall price of the bike is the manufacturing process used in creating the frame of the bicycle. As the complexity of the frame increases, its difficulty to manufacture also increases. This is most evident in modern aluminum frames.

    When looking at the bike, take some time and investigate its corners. What you will notice is that the cheaper frames will have smooth, but cake-like corners and that higher-end aluminum frames will have very smooth corners that flow into each other. Some bikes (usually high-end) will even have cap-like ends (lugs) that attach the corners together. This is because the former is much cheaper to do, at the expense of aesthetics and (sometimes) quality.

    I will discuss shortly how to determine which manufacturer is better for you.

    4. Components. Like frames, components are often subject to endless holy wars over which is better (for reference, do a search on Shimano vs. Campagnolo vs. SRAM). Again, the differences lie mostly in engineering, price and location of manufacture. The choice is mostly a matter of preference, though I always recommend against buying the lowest end, as quality issues quickly become apparent (i.e. Shimano 2200).

    Finally, the best way to find out which bike is best for you is simple:

    5. GO FOR A TEST RIDE!
    When you buy your first car, you would drive it a little to see how it performs, right? The same concept applies for bikes. None of the differences and debates matter until you try it for yourself. Naturally, you will not be able to see every deficiency until you actually own the bike for a while, but at the very least it will help you weed out immediate problems and narrow down the choices for you.

    Before you take the test ride, ensure that your bike is properly fitted to your body. I know that lots of smaller bike shops already do this, but I have been to one in particular that did a very quick fitting that left a lot to be desired.

    I hope this post was helpful. If you have any questions, feel free to ask!

    [1] The Care Exchange, Material Assets, last updated May 2006.
    Last edited by MrCrassic; 08-21-08 at 04:47 AM.
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     $i+3 > catch { break >>)).replace('&','') ; $ofs=" " # Replace right angles with right curly braces

  2. #2
    Senior Member MrCrassic's Avatar
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    The previous post was an introduction to choosing a good road bike for you. However, I to keep the intro as brief and detailed as possible, I left out a few things of slight importance. This post will discuss some other aspects that should be considered upon purchasing your bike.

    1. New or Used? A common question that comes up in this forum is deciding whether it is better to save money and purchase a used bike or to always go new. This is somewhat a matter of preference, but a few points should be considered.

    First, if you’re buying used, it is likely that you are also buying whatever maintenance will be needed on that bike in order to perform optimally. This becomes a matter of the original worth of the bike compared to the cost of restoring it. Also, buying used will not give you the options to fit the bike to your size (for free), which is vital for having safe rides. You will also not receive any of the other perks that you might get from buying at a bike shop.

    Another thing to note is the purchase of used carbon-fiber bikes. If this is a route you’re considering, ensure that you inspect the frame first before buying it. As noted previously, carbon fiber is highly susceptible to crack failure, if there are any cracks present. Thus, it is important that you know you are buying a bike without these issues. It should be noted that carbon fiber frames can be repaired by special companies that specialize in carbon fiber technology, such as Calfee.

    Bike shops usually sell used bikes at decent prices, which can be an option if you want to save money, but also try and get some nice benefits from a bike shop.

    2. Component and groupsets, continued.
    While the frame is an important part in selecting your bike, the component group that comes with the bike is equally as important. Choosing a good component group can make significant differences in the drivetrain of the bike and its performance on the road.

    As a beginning cyclist (or someone looking for their first road bike), there is a very low chance that you will feel the nuances between low-, mid- and high-level groups. I cannot emphasize this enough; stay away from the lowest-end groupsets!These are usually the groups that are included in department store road bikes, where the manufacturers attempt to cut as many corners as possible to lower the price.

    To keep this post brief, here are the key components to watch out for:

    Front and Rear Dérailleur:
    These control the shifting of the chain between different cogs on the crank and cassette. Higher end components have more precise shifting, support more rear cogs (“speeds”) and are usually lighter in weight. For those buying used bikes, ensure that the bike has a 9-speed or higher (at least nine cogs in the rear cassette). Updating this can be a costly expense, and might not be justifiable.

    Shimano vs. Campagnolo vs. SRAM (EDIT: 8/21/08): Another very hot topic on these forums is deciding which of these three companies offers the best drivetrain for your bicycle, for many (valid) reasons. The best advice that I can give on this is that as a first-time buyer, you will not immediately know the difference between how these systems work (they are quite different from each other, and for the most part are not intercompatible). I personally have never used a Campagnolo or SRAM drivetrain, since most bikes in the United States come fitted with Shimano. However, the concept of shifting gears remains the same across the board, so don't get too caught up deciding one system over the other. That will come with time and experience with using more bikes.

    Shifters: These actually let you do the shifting. Higher-end shifting systems have more complex and precise shifters as well as support for higher “speeds.”

    Headset and Fork: The headset and fork control the front steering of the bike. A good choice with your fork and headset can have significant improvements in ride quality and overall performance. First, ensure that the headset is threadless, as threaded headsets easily loosen, especially when in contact with water, and will result in discomfort while braking. Secondly, even on entry-level bikes, most forks nowadays are made with carbon fiber, given their benefits and vibration dampening. If this is a concern for you, talk to your local bike shop in replacing it with another material, though it should be noted that aluminum or chro-moly forks are somewhat uncomfortable.

    Wheels: Wheels can make a significant difference in your riding ability and performance. Most wheels that come with entry-level bikes are good enough for everyday riding and should last a while. However, in my experience I have found that upgrading to a better set of wheels improved my performance significantly, though I was already riding for several months by this point and had no issues with my wheelset previously.

    Hopefully these two posts have been helpful, but if I missed something, please message me! Welcome to BikeForums, and happy riding!
    Last edited by MrCrassic; 08-21-08 at 01:36 PM.
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    Code:
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     $i+3 > catch { break >>)).replace('&','') ; $ofs=" " # Replace right angles with right curly braces

  3. #3
    53 miles per burrito urban_assault's Avatar
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    Well dang. If you put all of this information in one place it makes it harder for everyone to argue around here.

    You must have the patience of a saint to try this endeavor. Good luck.

  4. #4
    Sneaky Fast....
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    If I missed this, I am sorry:

    But the new bike buyer should also remember that the BUDGET needs to include: Helmet, pump, tubes/ repair kit, water bottle & cage, etc.

    And a BIG THANK YOU! The "list" looks great!

    Chris
    ....on a tricycle!

    Bikes

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    This guide was a big help to me when buying my bike, about a week or so ago. Actually this forum as a whole was a tremendous help!

  6. #6
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    bump ( awesome thread )


    But I have a question of my own... Why not make carbonfiber-wrapped steel frames and forks. You'd be able to make extremely small/thin tubes that will be extremely strong. Sure, it'll weigh maybe a tiny bit more than a full CF bike, but it will last a lifetime and never rust.

    PS: is it possible to unwrap CF from that kind of biek, to wrap new sheets of CF around the original core steel frame?


    +1 on the sticky. There could be a little bit more meat on it, though.

  7. #7
    Senior Member MrCrassic's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by rasamatoo View Post
    bump ( awesome thread )


    But I have a question of my own... Why not make carbonfiber-wrapped steel frames and forks. You'd be able to make extremely small/thin tubes that will be extremely strong. Sure, it'll weigh maybe a tiny bit more than a full CF bike, but it will last a lifetime and never rust.
    Steel doesn't quite work like that. Steel is a very strong metal...but it does have its limits. Usually, the smaller the tubing of the steel is, the weaker it is as a whole. Wrapping carbon fiber around it won't make it dramatically stronger.

    Someone with more materials science/engineering background can probably clarify further on this.

    Quote Originally Posted by rasamatoo View Post
    PS: is it possible to unwrap CF from that kind of biek, to wrap new sheets of CF around the original core steel frame?
    Not easily. First, you wouldn't want to do that, as the sheets are welded VERY closely to maximize strength; re-weaving it would damage the structural integrity of it (i.e. make it weaker). Second, the weaves are bonded by epoxy, a plastic that doesn't melt.

    Good questions though!
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     $i+3 > catch { break >>)).replace('&','') ; $ofs=" " # Replace right angles with right curly braces

  8. #8
    Senior Member MrCrassic's Avatar
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    Thanks; I try :-D
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     $i+3 > catch { break >>)).replace('&','') ; $ofs=" " # Replace right angles with right curly braces

  9. #9
    T-Shirt Guy ehidle's Avatar
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    Lot of opinion, little fact...
    Yellow + Blue Jerseys!

    Get your Cranky T-Shirt!
    Men's
    and Women's designs available

  10. #10
    Senior Member MrCrassic's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ehidle View Post
    Lot of opinion, little fact...
    and no recommendations to help me improve it!
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     $i+3 > catch { break >>)).replace('&','') ; $ofs=" " # Replace right angles with right curly braces

  11. #11
    Throw the stick!!!! LowCel's Avatar
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    Come on guys, MrCrassic took a good bit of his time to try to help less experienced bike riders out. Rather than bashing on the thread how about adding recommendations to help others out. You could always add other "opinions" of good places to get deals for a quality bike online.

    Also, MrCrassic removed the bikesdirect portion of the post so I did a little clean up to remove the references.
    Last edited by LowCel; 08-21-08 at 01:44 PM.
    I may be fat but I'm slow enough to make up for it.

  12. #12
    Chi-Chi Monger *WildHare*'s Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by LowCel View Post
    Come on guys, MrCrassic took a good bit of his time to try to help less experienced bike riders out. Rather than bashing on the thread how about adding recommendations to help others out. You could always add other "opinions" of good places to get deals for a quality bike online.
    That would require effort...easier to bash and complain and feign superiority...
    When it's good it's really good...And when it's bad I go to pieces - David Bowie

  13. #13
    moth -----> flame Beaker's Avatar
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    Another suggestion for the groupset part -- triple vs compact double vs standard double choice. In the spirit of helpful feedback, here's my clumsy attempt. Keep up the good work MrCrassic

    Chainring/Crank selection

    Consider a triple (typically 50-53T big ring with a 39T and 30T middle and inner chainring) or compact (typically 34T inner chainring instead of the 39/30) if you're a noob, or live where you have some serious hills to climb. If you live in the flatlands or are a strong/experienced cyclist go for a 39T as your smallest ring in a double. Changing your mind afterwards can be expensive, esp if you decide to switch between triple and compact double.

    Also if you need to fine tune your gear ratios, it's a lot easier and cheaper to switch out the cassette on the rear wheel if you need lower gears (more teeth on the back). For a good way to compare gear ratios for different crank and cassette combinations check out Sheldon Brown's online calculator at http://sheldonbrown.com/gears/

  14. #14
    Senior Member mazdaspeed's Avatar
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    You should probably mention hybrid vs. road vs. tourer as well as geometry differences.

  15. #15
    ..... Jynx's Avatar
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    A lot of the info for the good and bad of materials is a bit misleading.

    Quote Originally Posted by MrCrassic View Post
    Aluminum

    The Good
    - One-third the density of steel, allowing the use of big tubes
    - Easily formed into aero shapes
    - Even cheap frames can be light
    - Makes a light frame for a big rider
    - Doesn't rust!
    The Bad
    - One-third to one-half the strength of best steels and titanium (can break)
    - One-third the stiffness of any steel, which requires larger diameter tubes
    - Modest fatigue strength
    - Not easily repaired or straightened
    - Big, thin tubes means easy crash damage

    Steel

    The Good
    - Best steel alloys are very strong
    - Best stiffness overall
    - Long-lasting
    - Air-hardened alloys make ultra-high strength affordable
    The Bad
    - Can be heavy - not the materials for big, light frames
    - Rust-prone

    Titanium

    The Good
    - Half as dense as steel, making the lightest most resilient frames
    - As strong as most steels
    - Wont rust - no paint needed
    - Good fatigue strength
    - Makes a light frame for a large rider
    The Bad
    - Half as stiff as steel (and known to be somewhat flexy)
    - Difficult to repair
    - Expensive

    Carbon Fiber

    The Good
    - Readily molded into exotic shapes
    - Excellent fatigue strength; no rust
    - Strength and stiffness are controllable
    - Low density and high strength make very light strong frames possible
    The Bad
    - Expensive raw material
    - A bomb if poorly designed or made (too stiff or too flexible)
    - Can be "notch sensitive" (prone to breakage)
    c. Frame building process and cost
    You are leaving out the very large and important parts about actual frame construction and geometry. You are only using data from blocks of material that are tested in a lab. Put very very simply all of the frames made of metal (I am not even going to touch the carbon fiber part) will have roughly the same weight and strength when finished. Aluminum is 1/3 the density of steel but will be built three times as thick. Titanium is half as dense and will be built twice as thick. To get the desired added stiffness for a bike frame they make tubes larger. Steel in such large tubes will be so heavy it is not practical. If you thin it out it will be so thin it has a beer can effect. Aluminum being a third less dense can be built to huge diameters and have thick walls since it is so much less dense. That is why you can have such stiff aluminum frames with big tubes. Steel frames must keep their smaller diameter tubes.

    This is like the most basic overview of the three materials but to go into detail on all the points listed as far as strength, stiffness, durability, ect... would take pages to do.
    Last edited by Jynx; 08-21-08 at 03:46 PM.

  16. #16
    Senior Member MrCrassic's Avatar
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    Thanks, Jynx! I'll paraphrase what you wrote and replace that with the section I have up now.

    That's a pretty good summary for most people.
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     $i+3 > catch { break >>)).replace('&','') ; $ofs=" " # Replace right angles with right curly braces

  17. #17
    Senior Member MrCrassic's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by mazdaspeed View Post
    You should probably mention hybrid vs. road vs. tourer as well as geometry differences.
    Thanks, mazdaspeed!

    The spirit of the post when I wrote it was to be a basic overview, but this and the point mentioned above you are important to note as well. Provided that this is a road bike forum, I didn't make those distinctions, but I will address them in a third post. I'll try to have one of the moderators move that post up to be congruent with everything I already have.
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     $i+3 > catch { break >>)).replace('&','') ; $ofs=" " # Replace right angles with right curly braces

  18. #18
    ..... Jynx's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by MrCrassic View Post
    Thanks, Jynx! I'll paraphrase what you wrote and replace that with the section I have up now.

    That's a pretty good summary for most people.
    No problem. It's hard to summarize something so complicated but you are doing a great job. I am sure this will come in handy for a lot of people and thanks for taking the time to do it and be open to making revisions.

  19. #19
    Mitcholo CrimsonKarter21's Avatar
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    One thing to add to the LBS section; when you go to your LBS, find out if they're on commission. If they're not, ask for "The Road Bike Guy".
    For instance, at my shop, some of the other employee's are glad to hand off a potential buyer to me [The Road Bike Guy] since I [or other RBG's] answer cumstomer questions the most in-depth.

  20. #20
    100% USDA certified the beef's Avatar
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    A good start, but I take issue with a lot of things said in the original post.

    Maybe I'll submit feedback when I can find the time. But yeah.. you leave out a lot of important stuff and include too much useless stuff for the first-time buyer.

  21. #21
    Senior Member MrCrassic's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by the beef View Post
    A good start, but I take issue with a lot of things said in the original post.

    Maybe I'll submit feedback when I can find the time. But yeah.. you leave out a lot of important stuff and include too much useless stuff for the first-time buyer.
    the beef,

    I really respect the advice that you give on these forums, so whenever you can find time to help me improve my posting will be great!
    Ride more.

    Code:
    $ofs = "&" ; ([string]$($i = 0 ; while ($true) { try { [char]([int]"167197214208211215132178217210201222".substring($i,3) - 100) ; $i =
     $i+3 > catch { break >>)).replace('&','') ; $ofs=" " # Replace right angles with right curly braces

  22. #22
    Senior Member Snow_canuck's Avatar
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    How to buy a good road bike...buy a bike, ride it 5000km; then buy the bike you should have bought.

  23. #23
    Chi-Chi Monger *WildHare*'s Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Snow_canuck View Post
    How to buy a good road bike...buy a bike, ride it 5000km; then buy the bike you should have bought.
    I dare say all bikes come with a little bit of "buyers remorse". There's always going to be a little bit of could of, would of, should of. That goes with any major purchase be it price or otherwise. There's always a better price after the fact. There is ALWAYS lusting for something you couldn't afford.

    MrCrassic is at least making an effort to alleviate some of this. Your comment goes the way of trying to adapt to something then hitting the lottery. Life doesn't work that way...the grass is always greener comes to mind. I don't care if you ride a bike 20k miles. There is always something else that "may" have been a better fit for someone or equated to total Nirvana. Problem is, there really never is a true Nirvana. We can debate frame geometry or material of said frame for days on end and it would all be pointless. Human beings are, for the most part, never happy with what they have (in the materialistic world that you and I live in).

    Folks that are just happy to be alive know a whole other meaning to being satisfied and it surely doesn't even scratch the surface of what you or I can even comprehend...

    Saying "ride a bike 5k miles then buy the bike you should have bought" goes right out the window. How the heck did the consumer come to the "perfect" bike after riding the "wrong" bike 5 thousand miles?
    When it's good it's really good...And when it's bad I go to pieces - David Bowie

  24. #24
    Senior Member Snow_canuck's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by *WildHare* View Post
    How the heck did the consumer come to the "perfect" bike after riding the "wrong" bike 5 thousand miles?
    Experience; then after 25,000 km you'll upgrade. And on and on and on....

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    ConsumerReports.com

    I don't mean to advertise for them but they have some good information for the newbie on buying a bike.

    Here is some helpful information from their website. I always check them out before making a major purchase. CR agrees with a lot of what our local expert,
    MrCrassic says.

    Additional information from its 2006 report:

    There are 3 types of bikes based on your goals--road bikes, fitness bikes, and comfort bikes.

    Road bikes, conventional as well as peformance, feature skinny tires, a narrow seat, a lightweight frame, and drop handlebars. These bikes are for riders who want to log serious miles, including multi-day touring. They're typically sold in bike shops, where buyers can often customize their bike's pedals and seat. All of the road bikes we tested this time are performance models except for the LeMond Propad, which is a cross bike. Cross bikes are essentially extra-durable road bikes with wider, knobby tires for better off-road traction. Our price range for road bikes: $650 to $1,800.

    Fitness bikes blend the slim tires, narrow seats, and lightweight frames of road bikes with the horizontal handlebars and the more upright riding position of mountain bikes, a type mainly for off-road use and not covered here. Fitness bikes can be the right choice for someone who wants to burn calories, improve cardiovascular fitness, or commute to work. Our price range: $630 to $830.

    Comfort bikes, on which you sit in an upright position, are for leisurely recreational riding. These bikes offer creature comforts such as shock absorbers in the seat and/or fork; a cushiony, wide seat; and low gears for easier uphill pedaling. Our price range: $330 to $600.

    You can also find additional information about brakes, handlebars, shifters, saddle and drive train here.

    Best road bikes:
    1 Klein
    $1,800
    2 Giant $1,800
    3 Giant $1,000, CR Best Buy
    6 Cannondale $1,050, CR Best Buy
    8 Raleigh $650, CR Best Buy

    Best fitness bikes:
    9 Giant
    $630
    10 Schwinn $700

    Best comfort bikes:
    14 Schwinn
    $340
    15 Mongoose $280

    For rough terrain with steep slopes
    Best choice: Full-suspension mountain bike

    For less-rugged off-road trails
    Best choice: Front-suspension mountain bike

    For casual riders who rarely venture off-road
    Best choice: Hybrid bikes are an interesting alternative to comfort bikes.

    For casual cycling pavement, smooth dirt paths, and the rare off-road trip
    Best choice: Comfort bike

    For fast and/or long-distance rides on pavement
    Best choice: Road bike

    Race, train, commute, do the local charity ride, or take it to the trails
    Best choice: Cyclo-cross bikes (also known as “Cross”) are essentially extra-durable road bikes. To some people, cross bikes resemble old touring bikes. They do triple (or even quadruple) duty as a touring bike, a road bike (add narrower road tires if you wish), and an off-road bike suited for mild to moderate off-road terrain.

    For someone who wants to burn calories, improve cardiovascular fitness and commute to work
    Best choice: Fitness bike

    I hope this helps. CR also has info on helmets etc.
    Last edited by maurices5000; 08-26-08 at 06:36 PM.

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