dgasmd

OK, so reading a current thread here got me thinking of this topic. I am going to Spain and maybe Portugal and France for a couple of weeks in Late Sept. I want to do lots of riding there, but I live and ride in South Florida, mother of all things flat (except chests as we are only second to LA!!). The closest thing to a hill is in central FL, about 2.5 hours driving time away, which makes it extremely difficult for someone wit such a tight schedule like mine to visit. In the link above, people like "merlinextralight" mentions he trained for some mountain races in Europe right here in FL by doing some specific training that he believes helped him greatly.

So, my question is, what are your suggestions on how to train for mountains when you don't have a mountain to train on? Elaborate!!!

merlinextraligh

I'm actually going to write this up on our blog, because it keeps coming up.

To start with, I'm really not a good climber, but I'm a surprisingly good climber for a fat old guy from Florida.

Doing sustained climbs is all about putting out a lot of power for a long period of time. The only way to climb big mountains better is to increase your power to weight ratio, and/or increase the length of time you can maintain your power at threshold.

Losing weight is the obvious side of the equation.

For the other side of the equation, increasing power, the key is lots of riding at threshold(functional threshold power if your training with power, Lactate threshold heart rate if you're training with heart rate.)

Thus getting ready for Everest Challenge right now, we're doing a lot of steady states (long intervals right at FTP or LTHR) This week it was 3x15 both last night and tonight.

It's easy to do these as hill intervals if you've got sustained climbs, because the hill forces you to pretty much go at a high power output. It's harder to do these on the flats pyschologically, because nothing but your own will is pushing you.

You can figure out the power output necessary to do the climb your training for, at your goal pace. (use a calculater such as kruezotter.) Then in your training on the flats, you need to build to the point you can sustain that same power for the requisite time on the flats. Riding hard into headwinds helps.

350 watts at 8mph up L'Alpe de Huez, is the same as 350 watts at 26 mph on the flats in Florida. Only difference is its mentally tougher to push yourself to do it on the flats. (and that's just an illustration, not intended to be accurate mathematically.)

So, you really can develop the power without the hills, otherwise you wouldn't have Dutch professional riders doing well in races involving climbing.

However, even if you have the power, there are still some challenges to climbing for which the flats don't prepare you . The position on the bike ends up being a bit different climbing, and stresses different muscles. I found in getting ready for L'Etape, and doing some test rides up Hogpen and Brastown in North Georgia that my back hurt.

A couple of answers to this problem were 1) core stregthening exercises, 2) riding deep in the drops, to simulate the angles you end up with climbing on the hoods with the front wheel raised by the grade, and 3) spending time on the trainer with the front wheel raised.

Another drill that can help in preparing for climbing is muscle tension intervals. Typically, 10 minutes or so in big gear on a moderate grade at 50-55rpm. In Florida there simply is no hill long enough to allow you do these properly on the road, because you can't get the sustained load given the lengths of the available climbs. I've found with a Fluid2 trianer and a 53/11 gear I get just enough resistence at 55rpm to make these worthwhile.(Typically the Muscle tensions would be donein the base phase of training toward the end.)

One often proposed answer is to bust repeated intervals up the local bridge. While I do some of this, I really believe it should not be a major feature of your preperation for big climbs. The climbs are just too short, and you end up training the wrong energy systems. So while bridge repeats will make you great at doing 1 minute climbs; they do not do as much to help you do 1 hour climbs as doing steady state intervals above.

If a fat old guy from Florida can finish Everest Challenge, get a top 10 finish in the Brasstown Bald Buster Century, and a silver medal in L'Etape de Tour, its shows you really can train for climbing on the flats.

That said there is no perfect substitute for climbing big mountains, than big mountains. So the best thing you can do before heading to Spain would be to plan a weekend or 2 in North Georgia to test how your training is working, and adapt as necessary, both your training plan,and your equipment (most importantly gearing selections.)

And honestly, I'd skip Claremont. It's a lovely place to ride, and hillier terrain than people would expcect in Florida. But you won't get much more out of traing in Claremont, than busting bridge repeats in Miami. IMHO, if you can swing it, flying to Atlanta and going to ride Hogpen and Brastown would be time much better spent.

There are certainly a bunch of technique/equipment issues that will help in climbing. I've tried to cover the things are unique to us flat landers.


(And I think this is the first post I've written longer than Carpdiem racing.)

dgasmd

Thanks for the reply. This is certainly one of the most educational and helpful posts I've read here likely since I became a member of this forum!! Also, I must admit this is likely the first post in months I have read that is more than 4 lines long!

botto 

you're not racing, so don't worry about it.

UGASkiDawg

Methinks someone is being a a little sef deprecating when they call themselves old "fat" guy......you ain't old fat guy if you are doing those things you listed

TONYKART125

headwindz

Ih8lucky13

Parking garages on weekends make for great training.

tollhousecookie

This sounds goofy but, put a block under your front wheel on your indoor trainer and gear your bike to pedal around 60 rpm's or lower. Practice this intensity and familiarize your self with a good climbing position. Close your eyes and visualize your self climbing. I do this during the winter.

wfrogge

I am forced to train on pretty flat/rolling terrain year round and have been making a big mistake with this kind of training. I can push 300+ watts on the flat for an hour but have been doing it at a pretty high cadence (90+). When I get to a real hill (mile +) and the torque kicks in my arse gets handed to me by the majority of the peleton. Should have ignored the nay sayers and done more lower RPM / high torque work over the winter.

DaSy

I agree completely with Merlinxtralight, I live in a hilly area of the UK, but the hills are mostly very steep, but only aroung 100 -200 metres altitude gain, so actually not that useful training for the Alps and Pyrenees.

I find my most useful training is tempo rides on the flat pushing a slightly too big gear for 2 or 3 hours. I rode Ventoux a couple of months ago and find it to be a very similar kind of workout.

It can be a shock when you first ride big mountains, so it is worth a trip to the nearest mountain just to familiarise yourself with the mental side of grinding your way up a hill for hours!

I also agree that you need to be used to pushing a slower cadence than you would normally like, I normally push around a 90 - 95rpm cadence in normal riding, but in the Alps I find I tend to be holding around 70 rpm. If I geared down to the point where I could spin 90's I think it would take all day, so I've learned to be happy grinding out 70's in a bigger gear and holding a descent pace.

botto 

3 pigs FTW.

banerjek

Merlin is the man. I met him at the EC last year, and he is a better rider than I'll ever be. The only reason I can do hills at all is that I have the right body type. My helmet's off to him and other riders who do so well despite having to train near sea level on the flats and being larger than most climbers.

If you have a trainer, you can get DVDs with workouts specifically geared to help you with hills. They can be useful because you have someone constantly motivating you to do exercises that will help you build strength.

superslomo

There's something psychologically daunting about very steep or very long hills that is an adjustment unto itself. I have a hard time knowing that I can't make things any easier on myself... on the flat you can always turn down the intensity to a comfortable level, a luxury that evaporates in even somewhat mountainous territory.

banerjek

Actually, I think that's what makes real hills much easier. You can see exactly what you're up against and you can optimize your positioning and pedaling technique for the section you're on. Plus, after you've climbed a few thousand feet and look down, you can really see what you've accomplished.

When you can't see what you're expending effort against, it's much harder to stay motivated. Wind is the worst because it is invisible and constantly changes.

botto 

not really. i prefer to look 10-20 meters in front of me, max, if i'm on a long climb, where i can see how long it really is.

anyway, back OT - seeing as the OP is riding his/her bike on vacation, not at a race or organized event, then the only thing he/she should pay attention to is riding within his/herself.

banerjek

This is almost never possible in mountains (at least the ones I've been on) because you're inevitably on narrow winding roads. The odometer is a useful tool for tracking progress.

botto 

guess you've never been to italy, or parts of france?

FormerBMX'er

I totally agree with this! This is something I especially do when riding with stronger riders. Find a good rhythm and just keep tapping it out. Don't worry about speed or time, just stay smooth and within yourself. Before you know you'll be at the top.

dgasmd

True, but there is nothing more discouraging that can put an end to a ride in 0.3 sec for me that "suffering" due to lack of preparation. It sucks the joy out of it and the living will out of me. I rather be prepared to do well on my own terms than having to struggle and suffer through every second of it. Not that I am not going to anyway, but at least I have the consolation of knowing at least I tried to prepare for it.

I may have no intentions of racing now or ever, but I still want to go faster and harder. I am my hardest competition.

botto 

nice spiel, but it's fredelcious thinking. my advice remains the same: ride within yourself.

if you try and push it on every ride, then all your going to do is burn yourself out by the third day.

umd

I tried to meet up with him last year but he went to the wrong pizza joint. I must say I find it somewhat ironic that a guy that calls himself fat has "extralight" in his user name (yes, I realize the name is from a bike).

KiddSisko

To OP: Interesting challenge you've set yourself up for. The only thing I can add is that even with good training in preparation for climbing, there's one thing that you won't be able to simulate or prepare for unless you've gone through it -- the mental component. There's quite a bit of "head work" going on during any serious climb. One reason is because you're doing a lot of physical work while moving forward very slowly. And if it's any kind of grade at all, there's gonna be a constant level of pain. How much pain is up to you, but it'll be there. Then there's looking up and seeing how much further you have to go. All of that can play havoc in your head. Controlling all that is often the bigger challenge, and for me personally, half the fun. Reaching the top is the other half. Positive thinking is frequently mentioned as a key technique for combatting a host of mental challenges during a climb. Out and out lying to yourself is another way of saying that. "Oh, that isn't too far/steep." Enjoy!

dgasmd

I understand what you guys are saying. I am doing it to enjoy the ride and the scenery. I may stop a few times to smell the roses, look around, take a few pictures and such. However, when I am cranking it up, I want to be able to do it at a decent pace, whatever that is for me.

banerjek

Plus, depending on elevation and weather, it can be quite cold. If you're unlucky, you'll get soaked before you hit the cold...

merlinextraligh

I agree with this. The first time we rode in the Alps, we were with a group. I torched myself on day one. 80 mile day including the Izoard, and a few catergorized climbs. Fell into the testosterone trap and had to establish the pecking order in the group.

Second day, another 80 miles with the Col de Lauteret and L'Alpe de Huez, I just died because I went too hard the first day.

So I totally agree pace yourself,and enjoy the ride.

However, in preperation, train as best you can, so you have the strength to ride strong, within your abilities, and enjoy yourself on your trip.