Slick Rick

I have been looking to replace my Tuscany w/ insurance payment. (Previous thread) None of the local shops have one in stock in my size but in visiting a few shops, I saw the replacement for the Arenberg (the Firenze). It is a pretty good looking bike but the LBS guy told me it was Litespeed's entry level frame. Litespeed's website indicates that a 55cm entire bike weighs in at less than 18 lbs. I ride a 57 inch frame so I'm guessing an extra 1/2 pound or so? Anyways, the only reason that I was looking at this bike was that the MSRP ($1999) is significantly lower than what it would cost to replace my beloved Tuscany. As I stated in a previous thread, I have full intention to ride collegiately in the fall. I could save myself some serious jack here by what the LBS guy said "downgrading" to the Firenze. My question is (if anyone can help me out here) what would a 57cm Tuscany Ultegra w/ Ksyrium Elites weigh (or how could I convert grams to pounds--I know the mass in grams) Also, would I notice much of a difference between the 2004 Firenze and Tuscany for racing? I do some Crit races but primarily I'm into RR. Would the difference in the 2 bikes be enough for me to even notice in racing them? My guess is that most readers of this thread will have more experience/knowledge of the Arenberg than the Firenze so a comparison w/ that bike is also fine. Thanks a million if anyone can help me!

roadbuzz

I expect one drawback is that the Firenze has round tubes, so for racing there'd be more side-to-side flex on a sprint or hard acceleration. That said, I have a cat 4 friend that races crits, TTs, and RRs on an Arenberg. If performance is the main criteria, maybe go for a quality Al frame? Or, keep scanning the web for a bargain on a Tuscany frame. But you probably would have had better luck in the fall.

To convert to grams to lbs:
Kg = grams/1000
lbs = Kg * 2.205

wheelerw

I just bought the firenze...... and I love it. actually ive only ridden it once. But I race in new england junior races, and what Ive experienced so far with the firenze is amazing. I had a cannondale caad5 frame before, and the firenze outclimbs it by far. People say it is flexy when you sprint, but I could not tell the difference from my cannondale, and I race in alot of track/and criteriums. Its a great bike, and will last a long time. I think it will do the best in time trials though.

RacerX

That is a tough question. The Tuscany looks like a budget Vortex, the Firenze looks like a budget Tuscany.

Of course you have options like the Classic and Solano inbetween the Firenze and Tuscany too.

PdxMark

I ride a Tuscany. It IS a great bike.

I doubt that weight should be the deciding factor for you. My concern would be that the Firenze would not be as stiff as the Tuscany, notwithstanding wheelerw's nice comments about the Firneze. A couple hundred grams (half a pound) will not feel nearly as important as a loss of stiffness.

Litespeed might be able to give you information about the relative stiffness of the Tuscany and the Firenze.

On the more base level.... if you're like me, a replacement Tuscany will leave you completely satisfied and cured of bike lust. With a Firenze, there'd be a nagging yearning to get the bike you really want... ultimately ending up in you replacing the Firenze at an eventually greater cost (2 bikes instead of the one you want the first time).

bhchdh 

Rember, after all the money is spent, 90% of performance is in the engine.

Avalanche325

If you look at the Litespeed website they give you stiffness ratings and stiffness / weight ratings.
Here are their ratings.
Tuscany stiffness - 4.6
Firenze stiffness - 4.3

Tuscany stiffness/weight - 4.4
Firenze stiffness/weight - 4.3

Tuscany ride quality - 4.7
Firenze ride quality - 4.5

The numbers show that the Tuscany is a but stiffer and the ride quality is a bit higher. I have a Firenze and love it. It is hard to imagine the ride quality being any better.

Since you are used to a Tuscany, I would say that one test ride on a Firenze will tell you if there is a difference. If you can tell one, definitely get the Tuscany. If not, maybe save some $$$. I think that I would have problems downgrading, even if only psychologically.

It is their "entry level" frame. This is basically a fact that they use round tubing rather than the exotic (expensive) shaped tubing that is used on other models. The down tube and main tube are oversized. The seat and chain stays have the classic Litespeed curves. Really, nothing entry level about it.

I am 6ft 197lbs. I don't notice any flex. I do notice how smooth it is and how it bolts up the hills.

dje31

FWIW, and IMHO, I think Litespeed has---or is about to---jumped the shark on frame design. Ti got a bad rep early on, with frames being noodles. Now, they, and other builders, have gone so far over-the-top on design, multi-shaped, mega-sized tubing and other marketing mumbo-jumbo, that I can't help but wonder if they've designed out the "magical" qualities that so many folks allude to about Ti. You might as well save your money and buy Al.

And sorry, maybe it's the purist in me, but so many of these frames look weird, if not outright ugly. I was looking at the '04 Tuscany, but they've lost me, aesthetically.

I ended up buying a Zion Phoenix from Jenson on a closeout dirt cheap. Haven't built it up yet, but it looks normal to my eye. Another plus, IMHO, is that it doesn't have that silly integrated headset nonsense. Feh. A guy I talked to at Litespeed said it's probably equivalent to the Solano in the current lineup. It even has a checklist tag from Litespeed, showing who did what during its manufacture.

You know, some flex is okay...especially as you get older.

But that's just me...and I've been wrong before...plenty of times. And, as always, YMMV.

Gunga galunga...err...gunga la gunga.

Doug

Avalanche325

The Firenze dosn't have "that silly integrated headset nonsense". It has a Cane Creek S2. It also does not have the "multi-shaped" tubing.

You haven't actually ridden one, have you? There is a world of difference between the ride of AL and Ti. I just completed a couple months worth of test rides. The two materials feel totally different.

The Firenze has classic goemetry and classic round tubes.

RacerX

Ok where do I start?
1. You own a generic brand Litespeed, yet you think Litespeed has "jumped the shark on frame design". (btw, Litespeed no longer makes Zion)

2. You don't like the Tuscany. OK. You don't like "that silly integrated headset nonsense". OK.

What about the bike you mentioned? The Solano. Or the Classic? Both non-integrated headsets, both "standard" bikes (although the Solano has a shaped tt)
What about Avalanche's Firenze? What about the preimer Ghisallo? straight tubes, non-integrated headset.

So you think Litespeed is "off" yet you own one. You hate certain models and choose to completely ignore others. OK, that's one version of logic for you

dje31

Jiminy, where's my asbestos suit? You guys are funny. And I probably shouldn't bother, but what the hey? After all, the thread is titled "Litespeed Debate."

Yes, I know the Firenze has a standard headset. Truth be known, the Phoenix may be one and the same as the Firenze...the guy from Litespeed said it was probalby closer to the Solano. The guy from Jenson said it was more like an Arenburg. Toe-may-toe, toe-mah-toe. They're durn nice Ti road bikes.

I was actually referring to the middle-to-top-shelf models, not the lower-end, the Ghisallo notwithstanding.

Yes, I've ridden both Ti and Al...yes, they feel different...but with the (over-) emphasis on stiffness, and energy transfer to the pedals being so hyped, is it wrong to speculate whether they're perhaps over-stiffening Ti?

And hey, the fancy, multi-sided tubes sure look cool, and set themselves apart from other bikes on the showroom floor, and I'm sure contribute to the frames' design goals...and they make it easier for sales guys to explain the difference between different brands of bikes in the shop (or elsewhere).

As long as the can o' worms is open, I think the '04 DA crank is ugly as sin. I understand and appreciate the engineering and design that's gone into it. And, to my eye, it looks a lot better with "normal" chainrings on it...but it also fits with the newer frame designs, shaped tubes, etc.

And no, I'm not a retro-grouch either...well, maybe a little. But if the integrated headset is the cat's arse, why isn't it on the Ghisallo?

Don't recall having said "hate" in my little blurb, but that's okay. I don't think I'd have bought a bike I hated. I was actually looking to pick up an '03 Tuscany, but they sold out.

If I had bought a Litespeed, if I ever chose to sell it one day, I'd get more for it than this Zion what's-it that no one's heard about...but that didn't matter to me. I typically buy-and-hold, and don't necessarily want the same stuff everybody else has.

And I respect the quality of work and product that comes from Chattanooga, even if I don't necessarily agree with or swoon over everything they've done over the years. Lord knows they've tried just about every full-suspension design known to man for MTBs...but I digress...

Besides that, the Zion was cheap at $799 for the frameset. And it's a collector's item to boot now!

Ain't it great that life's full of choices? And that there's this fancy-schmancy worldwide computer doo-hickey so everyone's (myself included) nitwitted opinions can be shared with the whole world? Woo-hoo!

And lastly, jiminy people, it's a bike, fer cryin' out loud. Sheesh...it's not like I insulted someone's mother...yet...

RacerX

Oh ok, I thought you were the same guy that said:
"FWIW, and IMHO, I think Litespeed has---or is about to---jumped the shark on frame design. Ti got a bad rep early on, with frames being noodles. Now, they, and other builders, have gone so far over-the-top on design, multi-shaped, mega-sized tubing and other marketing mumbo-jumbo, that I can't help but wonder if they've designed out the "magical" qualities that so many folks allude to about Ti. You might as well save your money and buy Al.

And sorry, maybe it's the purist in me, but so many of these frames look weird, if not outright ugly. I was looking at the '04 Tuscany, but they've lost me, aesthetically."

Have you even ridden a 6/4 frame before speculating about how it's somehow similar to aluminum?

As for shaped tube Litespeeds being all hype, well I think Litespeed does it based on more than that. I don't know, what I can say is that I've actually had saddle time on bikes I talk about.

You can say they are ugly or not stylish. I don't care. But you really can't make performance statements that are plain wrong or misleading without backing it up. Hey, if you have time on a bike and an opinion on it, I'm all ears. But like this thread, I will be up for friendly debate when I see something that doesn't jive with my own experience.

And when you say you like having something different, you don't. You have a Litespeed generic brand.

"Something different" would be a Morati.

RacerX

Avalanche325,
I think you've done more for Firenze sales than anyone. All I see are Firenze threads popping up all over the place.

Avalanche325

Yeah, RacerX, I'm starting to sound like I work for Litespeed. Oh well, I'm just really happy with it. I am sure that my enthusiasm will die down..............in four or five years.

shokhead

Ya think because its a ti litespeed for 2000 grand? Make me a short list of other complete ti road bikes for $2000 or less and we will compare.

RacerX

No it's because I did not read one thread on the Firenze until Avalache started posting about his. Now I see alot of threads on the Firenze.
I was talking to Avalanche325

shokhead

I was talking to you and you heard me.

late

I have been hoping for a long time a magazine would do a road test comparing several roughly $2K Ti bikes. You can add Airborne and Douglas to the ones mentioned earlier. You could take a couple of Litespeeds (Firenze versus a Veneto would be interesting), a couple of Airbornes(Valkyrie and Zeppelin), Douglas, Zion, Habanero and any others that come to mind. Be curious to see what, if anything, the extra dough buys you.Heck, I'd like to do the road test myself

wheelerw

"upgrade your body, not your equipment"

roadfix

Our bodies have been upgraded. The difference now, is in the equipment we use....

RacerX

Douglas and many others are generics made by Litespeed. Litespeed no longer makes Zions.

A real comparison would be between Litespeed, Airborne and Morati but I will tell you, imo, there is a reason Litespeed is a premier Ti builder. It isn't hype.

don d.

Buy a Ti frame here for ~$630.00:

www.titaniumsports.com

...then buy a complete Campagnolo Veloce build kit here for ~$765.00:

www.repartocorse.com

...and buy a fork for ~$80.00 here:

https://www.performancebike.com/shop/...144&Store=Bike

...and take it to the LBS and have them build it for ~$100.00.

Or save and build it yourself using the Barnett's Manuals available on this forum. You'll probably have to pay to have the headset cups pressed in and the fork crown race installed, but that should only be ~$20.00.

Voila! Ok, it doesn't come as a complete bike, but it will be when you're done. And IMHO, you will be getting high quality materials and workmanship throughout. Before you're critical of the quality, check the list of who they build for.

Oh, and by the way, for those that don't know what size to buy, go through Reparto Corse's sizing program online before you buy the frame.

RacerX

as with anything, you pretty much get what you pay for.

don d.

I ride one of these with a Sumitomo Ti fork(no longer available) instead of the Performance CF fork, and it is a pretty damn nice ride. The workmanship is excellent, and the alignment is right on.

Avalanche325

You forgot:
Rims, spokes, tires, tubes, seatpost, saddle, stem, handlebars, bar tape, and cables.

That's gonna add a buck or two.