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  1. #26
    In beaurocratic limbo urbanknight's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mr. Beanz View Post
    I'm not so sure is thread was jacked. He mentioned the quality and fine detail of his wheels. I just did a lil debatin' from the other side. Like slightly heavier spokes on the rear drive to even the tension of the rear wheel. I'd argue that if the trailing spokes were on the inside of the flange for support, the tension would be more even without the nifty switch-o-the-spokes gauge tricks.
    Actually, it won't affect the tension in any way. One way just puts pressure on the spokes from the inside, the other from the outside, but the tension will be identical either way. The use of thinner spokes on the NDS is an attempt to require more tension on them to balance the pull of the other side. Most Campy modern Campy road hubs build up with the NDS 50-55% of the DS, while the wheels in this hub are 62%. This allowed me to build in a larger buffer zone between too tight on the DS (rim failure) and too loose on the NDS (spoke failure).

    I don't care if it's being jacked or relevant. It's giving me advertisement and a stimulating conversation at the same time!
    "Well, I guess you can cut the arts as much as you want... Sooner or later, these kids aren't going to have anything to read or write about." (Richard Dreyfus as Glenn Holland)

  2. #27
    Banned. Mr. Beanz's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by urbanknight View Post
    I don't care if it's being jacked or relevant. It's giving me advertisement and a stimulating conversation at the same time!

    But like you said, it should be fine either way if it's a good build. Just one of those details that is a preference of other builders. My view is that the stock equipment from Bonti/Trek/Specialized along with a few local handbuilders use the inside method on their wheels, the engineers at the MFG'ers have designed the wheel in this fashion, so it must be the best design. That and Sheldon say so!

  3. #28
    Banned. Mr. Beanz's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ripperj View Post
    Please make it simple, I'm dizzy too. The spokes on the inside of the drive side below are ??Trailing?? (i'm asking)
    Somewhat simple. The spokes on the iside of the flange on the driveside of Cuda's new wheel will seem to point towards the front of the bike while rolling (against the grain) they are leading spokes. The spokes on the outside of the flange seem to go with the flow and are trailing spokes as tehy seem to come from behind. (look at the sheldon link/site for further 'splainin')

    According to Sheldon, the inside spokes should be laced so that they are trailing spokes. His theory is trailing spokes are under more stress than the leading spkes. Being on the inside of the hub flange, they will be better supported since the stress may cause them to flex resulting in hitting of the derailleur. Plus the flange support makes them stronger so they don't flex as much or far. Plus, in this position, if the chain were to hit the wheel for some reason, it would hit the leading spokes which are under less stress causing less damage. If it hits the trailing spokes, it would cause more damage since they are under more stress. So the trailing should be inside the flange to avoid contact witht the cahin, derailleur and as support for the trailing spokes uder stress.

    UK says he laced them so that if the chain goes into the spokes, the direction of the spoke would direct the chain back onto the cogs. From what Sheldon says, I'd rather have the chain hit the leading spokes and not the trailing since they are under more stress. UK says the direction willnot affect the wheel if it is build properly.


    On the pic below, two different directions.

    Left pic. Trailing spokes are outside of the flange (farside) I want my money back!. Built by a local builder before I started building my own. This wheel has a tension problem. Does it have to do with the lacing?

    Right pic. Trailing spokes are on the insdide for support and avoiding contact with the chain and derailleur once under stress.

  4. #29
    Unique Vintage Steel cuda2k's Avatar
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    Guess I'll have to give a 500 and 1000mi ride report and see how the spoke tension is holding up.
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  5. #30
    Tilting with windmills txvintage's Avatar
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    So after one disappointing google attempt, where does one get a set of these rims?

  6. #31
    Ho-Jahm Hocam's Avatar
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    Cuda, I just replaced the old steel gran compe headset on my bilenky with this:



    It's very smooth and uses quality sealed cartridge bearings for only $40
    Race-o-meter:
    Broken until next season

  7. #32
    Unique Vintage Steel cuda2k's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by txvintage View Post
    So after one disappointing google attempt, where does one get a set of these rims?
    Bought mine from these guys: Ital-Tecno

    in fact actually bough the hubs from these guys too off ebay. Fast email responses, good customer service, also bought my Fulcrum 5 Evo wheels from them.

    Some UK (TotalCycling for instance) based shops carry the rims too, but for US based shops, they seem to be one of the few.


    Hocam: thanks for the tip. Unforunately I trimmed my steerer tube on the Serotta to fit the Record HS, with a stack of 38mm. The Velo-Orange part has a stack of 42mm. Not sure how many threads I'd get on the lock nut with a 4mm stack difference. (kicks self for not putting a spacer on instead of cutting). One of the old tricks for getting more life out of a headset with some indexing is rotate each cup 90 degrees in opposite directions, hopefully it'll work here.
    Last edited by cuda2k; 11-22-08 at 11:46 AM.
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  8. #33
    Ho-Jahm Hocam's Avatar
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    Ah I see.

    Well, if you ever scrape together the dough, Chris King makes a low stack threaded headset, and you probably would never have to buy another one.
    Race-o-meter:
    Broken until next season

  9. #34
    In beaurocratic limbo urbanknight's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mr. Beanz View Post
    Right pic. Trailing spokes are on the insdide for support and avoiding contact with the chain and derailleur once under stress.
    On the right pic, it's just as you said for the drive side, but reversed on the NDS. Is that an older (mid 90's) machine built wheel? I think it was Sheldon's site that said it was done that way because earlier machines weren't sophisticated enough to load spokes from both sides. Considering Sheldon's reason #1 for putting the trailing spokes on the inside, the build in that pic would make the ENTIRE WHEEL shift to the left!!!

    Once again, a tiny and insignificant difference, but I thought I'd blow it out of proportion just for fun
    "Well, I guess you can cut the arts as much as you want... Sooner or later, these kids aren't going to have anything to read or write about." (Richard Dreyfus as Glenn Holland)

  10. #35
    Banned. Mr. Beanz's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by urbanknight View Post
    On the right pic, it's just as you said for the drive side, but reversed on the NDS. Is that an older (mid 90's) machine built wheel? I think it was Sheldon's site that said it was done that way because earlier machines weren't sophisticated enough to load spokes from both sides.
    Once again, a tiny and insignificant difference, but I thought I'd blow it out of proportion just for fun
    If you read the Sheldon' site (next to the section I posted), you will see it says that the direction on the "left side does not matter". It's the drive side that matters.. Matter of fact, he says that if you lace the trailing spokes in the same direction, it only makes the wheel easier to lace. I intentionally laced it in this direction to prove that I could do it the hardway!

    That's the wheel I built, 16,000 miles under my 220-240 lb body and has never needed truing!

  11. #36
    Captain-Fred Militia ripperj's Avatar
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    Thanks for the lesson. My handbuilt wheels(LBS) are laced like Cuda's. Now I will have something else to lose sleep over
    Freds ride home on Bikes not Stretchers

  12. #37
    Banned. Mr. Beanz's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ripperj View Post
    Thanks for the lesson. My handbuilt wheels(LBS) are laced like Cuda's. Now I will have something else to lose sleep over

    I'm the same way. On the next few wheels I built after the one posted above, I did lace the spokes in the same direction just to be AR!...I had problems with wheels in the past, including handbuilt by local pros. Though I am a big rider , I couldn't figure out why they would fail. I stated building my own and they lasted. But I used every trick Sheldon gave me. I did look up tips on a couple of other sites and they say the same about the trailing spokes inside the flange.

    I figure engineers at Bonti, Mavic and others along with Sheldon design and build wheels, I'll stick with their Knowledge!

  13. #38
    In beaurocratic limbo urbanknight's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mr. Beanz View Post
    If you read the Sheldon' site (next to the section I posted), you will see it says that the direction on the "left side does not matter". It's the drive side that matters.. Matter of fact, he says that if you lace the trailing spokes in the same direction, it only makes the wheel easier to lace. I intentionally laced it in this direction to prove that I could do it the hardway!
    Yes I read that part, which is why I'm trying to show how he kind of contradicts himself.
    He says it doesn't matter how you lace the NDS, but then he states this:
    1)The spokes are bent around each other at the outermost crossing. Under drive torque, especially in low gear, the trailing spokes straighten out and the leading spokes bend even more. If the wheel is laced with the trailing spokes on the outside of the flange, the crossing gets pulled outward toward the derailer cage, and in some cases will actually hit against the derailer only under load.
    If you take that seriously and apply it to your wheel in the photo, the drive side is pulling the spokes inward while the NDS is pulling it outward, which means the entire rim is being pulled to the left under acceleration. If that doesn't move the rim into the brake pad, I doubt Cuda's wheels would rub the derailleur.

    Of course, we're probably talking less than 1mm here, which is probably why Sheldon added the disclaimer:
    Note: This is not an important issue! There is a sizable minority of good wheelbuilders who prefer to go the other way around, and good wheels can be built either way
    My only opinion is that the shop that built your wheel did a crappy job unrelated to the lacing. The fact that you changed it when you built it yourself is probably not the reason it stopped failing. It stopped failing because you took the time to build it up right and with even tension. I've worked in shops before, and never saw a tension meter in any of the tool boxes. I don't recommend having wheels built by any shop unless the builder is actually recommended by name, not by the shop's name. That even goes for the wheels I built at Wheel World because the manager demanded a fast build and not a careful build (I'm happy that my name didn't go on those wheels, even though I think I did a decent job).
    Last edited by urbanknight; 11-23-08 at 12:33 AM.
    "Well, I guess you can cut the arts as much as you want... Sooner or later, these kids aren't going to have anything to read or write about." (Richard Dreyfus as Glenn Holland)

  14. #39
    In beaurocratic limbo urbanknight's Avatar
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    Anyway, I have built well over a hundred wheels in my life time, both heads in and heads out, and not a single one has broken a spoke. Not even the one I built for a 220 lb track sprinter. I'm confident in what I build, or I wouldn't be making them for others.

    I can't blame you for siding with Sheldon, Mavic, and Bontrager, though. They have "built" more wheels than I ever could. Of course, I'm not disagreeing with them. I'm just not hell bent on one opinion. Should I be?
    "Well, I guess you can cut the arts as much as you want... Sooner or later, these kids aren't going to have anything to read or write about." (Richard Dreyfus as Glenn Holland)

  15. #40
    In beaurocratic limbo urbanknight's Avatar
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    OK, just for fun I looked up some pics of major manufacturer wheels built with the trailing spokes on the outside of the flange. I guess even they can't make up their mind!

    Mavic Ksyrium Equipe


    Mavic Ksyrium Elite


    Mavic Cosmic Carbones


    Wheelsmith built Mavic CXP12


    Bontrager Race Lite


    Bontrager Race X Lite Carbon Aero (all of the spokes are on the outside)


    Zipp 404 Clydesdale


    Zipp Team Issue CSC Clinchers


    That took me all of 10 minutes, and it seems about 50/50 split for the pictures I found. Mavic actually seemed to be mostly trailing spokes outside. Factory Zipps were the opposite, but as you can see, even they aren't particular.
    Last edited by urbanknight; 11-23-08 at 01:04 AM.
    "Well, I guess you can cut the arts as much as you want... Sooner or later, these kids aren't going to have anything to read or write about." (Richard Dreyfus as Glenn Holland)

  16. #41
    Banned. Mr. Beanz's Avatar
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    True, biggest factor is a good build. But I can point out 6 other issues with the wheel you built but I won't so the others don't lose any sleep over it!

  17. #42
    Banned. Mr. Beanz's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mr. Beanz View Post
    True, biggest factor is a good build. But I can point out 6 other issues with the wheel you built but I won't so the others don't lose any sleep over it!

    I'm just kidding about the 6 issues, so don't go get your spokes in a bind!

    A lil wheel humor there!

  18. #43
    In beaurocratic limbo urbanknight's Avatar
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    Oh good, I was about to PM you and consider closing up shop!

    Spokes in a bind. Good one!
    "Well, I guess you can cut the arts as much as you want... Sooner or later, these kids aren't going to have anything to read or write about." (Richard Dreyfus as Glenn Holland)

  19. #44
    Unique Vintage Steel cuda2k's Avatar
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    I was going to PM Beanz too and ask, cause I may be no wheel genius, but I certainly didn't see any issues with them. My tires shipped from PBK today, depending on the mail and such, there's a slim chance I'll get them by Friday, maybe Saturdy if I'm super lucky with the Thanksgiving holiday between now and then. Otherwise the new wheels will have to wait till the following weekend to hit the road.
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  20. #45
    Headset-press carrier logdrum's Avatar
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    Nice wheels. I thought i was the only guy on BF using 32 spoke wheels.
    If you must, then you should Laying off BF for a while. Forum posting does nothing to enjoyment or improvement on the bike
    Quote Originally Posted by botto View Post
    ride more, buy less.

  21. #46
    In beaurocratic limbo urbanknight's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by logdrum View Post
    Nice wheels. I thought i was the only guy on BF using 32 spoke wheels.
    My every day wheels are 32 spoke Mavic Reflex clinchers on Ultegra 600 (8 speed era) hubs. They were built in 1996 and still running strong today. Almost time for new hubs, though. The bearing races are finally starting to get too rough for my taste.
    "Well, I guess you can cut the arts as much as you want... Sooner or later, these kids aren't going to have anything to read or write about." (Richard Dreyfus as Glenn Holland)

  22. #47
    Unique Vintage Steel cuda2k's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by logdrum View Post
    Nice wheels. I thought i was the only guy on BF using 32 spoke wheels.
    I've got:

    these 32h Ambrosio Execellight wheels.
    Open Pro/Daytona 32h 3x.
    Campagnolo Omega 19 / Campagnolo Record (classic) 32h 3x.

    I've also got a set of 36h GP4/Record wheels, and some 27" wheels that I built as a 36h 3x build with some Araya rims and Shimano high flange hubs.

    Only bike with non-traditional wheel build is my Fuji with a set of Fulcrum 5 Evolutions. But I have been known to throw my Open Pros on that bike for long charity rides where the road surface isn't the best.
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  23. #48
    Unique Vintage Steel cuda2k's Avatar
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    The one time PBK's shipping hasn't been crazy fast is when I'm waiting on my new set of tires for these wheels!

    hopefully they'll show in the mail today... but that's what I said yesterday.
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  24. #49
    Senior Member mustang1's Avatar
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    When I read the title, I thought Ridgeback (the bike frame company, I think UK only) went into the wheel building business.

  25. #50
    In beaurocratic limbo urbanknight's Avatar
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    I didn't realize there was a company named Ridgeback in the bicycle industry already. I just named it after my dog who's main breed is Rhodesian Ridgeback.
    "Well, I guess you can cut the arts as much as you want... Sooner or later, these kids aren't going to have anything to read or write about." (Richard Dreyfus as Glenn Holland)

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