Bob Dopolina 

I'm not sure if this is going to be a rant or a desperate plea for advice.

A few years ago I collected a group of club riders and a few racers and started the Wed night WC. Then, collectively we started the Sat morning HammerFest. This was all good. As anyone knows this type of training is a must.

Many of these riders were fairly new or moderately experience. No problem. Again, we'd all benefit.

Slowly, I convinced them that we didn't need to stop mid-way through a 5 hour ride to have lunch. I convinced them that 2 waterbottles was a good idea. I introduced them to intervals. Then, they started to see real improvement. Some of them started to podium, then win in their age cats, then a few started to do well in the Elite Masters races culminating last season with a win in a pretty high profile race here.

Again, all good.

But there's this one guy. This one Jitbag who JUST WON'T LISTEN!

I used to call him KOBAB (King Of Bumps And Bridges). He would suck wheel all ride and then attack at every small rise or overpass. He would sprint to the top and then sit up as if he'd just won KOM points. It was really annoying and poor etiquette to boot. So I started sitting on his wheel and then countering OVER the top and down the other side dropping him from the ride.

If it was just this I'd let it go. But it isn't.

I spoke with him about it, how it wasn't helping his training and how, in a race he'd get dropped just like I was doing to him (and this is just what happened). In Chinese they say 'playing piano for the cows'. For us 'pearls before swine'.

He even does dangerous stuff and has caused crashes. For instance, when he is at the front he looks at his computer every 5 pedal strokes. It is like clockwork (this is when I attack him). He pulls too long and can't make a steady, even effort. You can watch his body start to bob and weave as he over extends himself (this is when I attack him). He's not Cat5 sketchy but he has poor habits that often put others at risk. The problem is he's strong enough, and fit enough that it has gotten harder and harder to shell him.

Last night, during the Wed night WC, he was at the front and he pulled us through a red light. He made it through ok but the rest of us almost got T-boned by a car. He rides as if he is one rider, not a group. He does stuff like this all the time.

He's also the guy that stays race fit all winter and attacks on LSD rides, accelerates when he pulls through KNOWING that it will put the guys who just pulled in a spot of bother. When spring comes or during races this guy gets it handed to him all the time. His quirky training habits aren't giving him the same kind of results that almost ALL the other guys on the team (a newly formed team for 2009) are getting. In short he rides with his head up his arse and completely for himself.

The others in the group (all locals) have talked to him several times and they think he is an odd duck, too. BUT he is their friend and, consistent with Chinese culture, won't tell him to piss off.

Last week we were doing crit training (for an upcoming crit) and working on cornering and the final sprint. We were doing 1km laps with sprints every second lap. We all talked before we started about what we were going to do, how we were going to do it and WHY.

Off we go.

First sprint he doesn't sprint but counters and dangles 30m off the front (par usual) until we roll over him. Then he does it again and again and again. We stop. It is explained to the group AGAIN what we are doing, how we are doing it and WHY.

Off we go again and he continues to do the same thing. IDIOT!

The thing is he actually thinks he is winning something or proving something when he does this. He is cocky in winter (when he's fitter than the rest of us) and nowhere in summer (with a bag of excuses). He's just a complete a-hole.

Now, a new team has formed (Team CKT) he's on it and I can't get rid of him. I also can't ignore him because his antics impact the rides and all of our training. This team is looking to me for training advice and structure but what the hell can I do about this guy? I'm completely at wits end.

I'd love to Cinzano this guy but I am convinced he'd be back the next ride and nothing would have changed.

I can tolerate a lot of things but I can't stand stupidity. Stupidity coupled with arrogance is even worse!

Have any of you ever experienced an idiot like this? What did you do?

ridethecliche

F Chinese ettiquette.

Tell him to HTFU and piss off.

That's bike racing.

Bob Dopolina 

Unfortunately this isn't an option. He is friends with the the other members of the team and my conflict with him would cause some bad blood even though they all would be much happier if he took up golf.

Also, it isn't my team and he'd still show up to group rides. Actually he is less annoying in races because I rarely see him. It is during training that he pisses me, and others, off.

PhilThee

But they execute the people who make them look bad

What's Cinzano?

roshea

Yell at him?

ridethecliche

You sir, are not a true roadie.

Bob Dopolina 

Incorrect.

Stop watching FOX.

They execute those who sell things like fake baby food (or baby food laced with melamine) that kills 3 babies and gives thousands more kidney stones. I fully support this policy.

Can we not have this degenrate into another China bashing thread since,

1. I am not in China and
2. Those who bash China have NEVER been there and know dick.

Back to the topic at hand, mkay.

CrimsonKarter21

The Cinzano team from Breaking Away who brought the act of sticking a frame pump into someone's spokes into the mainstream.

Bob Dopolina 

I've talked, yelled, shelled and done almost everything possible to discourage his behaviour. He's just too stupid to see it.

PhilThee

Bob, Chill.
It was meant as a humorous suggestion. Too dry for computer humor I guess.

Flatballer

Go on a long ride with him and only him. Tell him it's a training ride. Take a lot of turns, don't tell him where you're going. Drop him, return home. Don't apologize.

If that fails -
Go on a long ride with him. When descending a mountain at 60 mph, run him off the road. Don't apologize.

If those both fail, you might have to higher a professional to "handle" the situation for you.

Hida Yanra

+1 - as an expat (well, more like gypsy) all my life I am in full agreement.
"Not a bad rule for life"= If you haven't lived there, you don't know what you are talking about.

Quijibo187

watch this instructional video for proper Cinzano maneuver training.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=b8tNX2LVd0Y

Specifically at the 5:18 mark.

As to the O.P. I have no idea what to do aside from change the location of the ride and don't tell him, but one of his "friends" may mess that up.

kylejack

Doesn't seem to me like he's doing anything that bad! And if tossing him from group rides would upset too many people it sounds like this is something you're just going to have to learn to live with. I mean unless you want to follow him home and wack him or something.

Bob Dopolina 

You need to use these things>.

I'm guilty of never using them enough.

BTW, I'm a big fan of dry humour.

AsianCarbon

Hey Bob, use the ignore button on the training rides..

OC Roadie

Leading the group through red lights is bad in my book. It's one thing when you're by yourself or a couple of guys, but pulling the group ride through red lights is not acceptable.

gMoneyYo :)

I was guest on a 5+ hour ride in Lynchburg, Va with a group of semi-pro guys, (first realride for me) but even I knew this one guy (cocky fast kid, my age) was causing problems. From the start he was doing similar things. He even called a former-pro in the group "old man".
About half way through the ride the "old man" threw a full water bottle at him, at the top of a climb.
It stopped.

carpediemracing 

If you run the training rides, you can make rules. If someone breaks the rule, they are "disqualified" from doing the next training ride. One rule might be, say, attacking up a little rise. On the other hand you should "reward" riders that hold things together, show judgment, etc. Special mention in the newsletter or something.

I like the "training ride with unannounced turns". I've done this a couple times on rides I've led.

I'd call him names in an affectionate way while giving him real advice. Like "Hey, Rabbit (or some equivalent of throwing shoes at a guy name)! Nice attack. To make it work better you have to immediately get 20-30 seconds or else it's not worth it to continue. If you don't get that gap, it's better to sit up. No gap means you weren't strong enough to carry through the attack. The key to attacking is to have one good attack, not 20 failures due to weak legs and stupid tactics (add other degrading comments). If you want to attack, you have to kill the riders behind you with your attack, not make them smile at you. But you have good spirit. Keep it up."

I'd also teach real things when the guy isn't around. For example, illustrating the importance of bridging a gap quickly instead of just plodding across it. You tell the guys in the group that it's not enough to dwaddle in the 53x15 but instead everyone takes 10 revs in some huge gear and then you go and get the guy. Turn the frustration into a chance to hold a clinic. Then bridge up to the bozo at 38 mph and blow right by him. Then sit up and discuss what just happened. He'll probably counter, but at that point you turn right and plod along or whatever.

While you're letting the guy go, also discuss why such attacks are useless. For example, point out (laughingly) how some people think that riding solo is better training than group riding because you get a draft. Imagine the solo rider's astonishment when the pace goes through the roof! Egads. An illustrative point - look up the road at that guy. The poor unfortunate soul doesn't realize what he's missing. Alas.

When he does his hard pulls on LSD rides, quickly and firmly point out the proper pace to the guy behind him. Let the guy pull himself clear of the group. When he eases and returns (assuming you don't have everyone turn onto a different road when he's 50 meters clear), ask him if he's simply too undisciplined to hold a steady pace. Undisciplined riders, you should point out, are great for early race distraction attacks, but they rarely get to actually do well. Give him a choice. If he chooses to assume the label of "undisciplined", treat him as such. Call him "Undisciplined rabbit" next time he attacks.

Ultimately you're falling trap to adjusting to his riding, not sticking to your own riding. Use the guy as an example of what not to do. Use his antics to teach the guys who want to know the reality of racing.

Of course I say all this but maybe if it were me in your place, I'd box him into the curb instead of letting him pull through, or accidentally look over the wrong shoulder and veer into him, accidentally miss a shift and stutter pedal when he's close, gap him off everything he gets to the front, or about 20 other things that you can do to annoying riders.

cdr

Brian Ratliff

I'd say, just like a troll on the internets, just don't play his game. Let him do what he does. If you are in a paceline, get in behind him and if he accelerates, just let him dangle. If he wants to win the bumps and bridges, let him do it.

When doing the skills training, just let him do his thing and organize the skills session so that it doesn't affect anyone else. If he's the only one participating, he might just get the hint and fall in line.

But just like a troll on the internet, short of banning him, the best you can do is ignore him and let him do his thing while making sure his thing doesn't hurt the group as a whole. He is either being a jackass and trying to be contrary to the group goals, a dumbass who doesn't know what he is supposed to be doing and is getting mixed messages by all the lectures and counter-attacks, or a wiseass who thinks what the group is doing is contrary to his own goals and he knows better than everyone else. In all cases, if he finds himself isolated in his behavior, he'll likely either leave on his own or fall in line.

Also, you might try to make him a case study to your teammates behind his back. Gently though, or else it looks like you're just ragging on him for personal reasons and being mean. Make sure it stays instructional. That'll also ensure that his behavior is isolated and different from the rest of the group.

gMoneyYo :)

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=D4XxC...ext=1&index=12

Brian Ratliff

1+ This is what I am meaning by my last comment.

bt

OP....print out your post and stuff it in his jersey pocket, tell him to read it when he gets home.

Give him the benefit of knowing excactly what you don't like and that will clear up any confusion.

He may not fully understand how he irritates you.

Brian Ratliff

Jitbag. Now that is just a cool epithet.

PhilThee

I haven't heard that in a while. As soon as the video started play'n I remembered.
You're gunna hate me but after I watched that movie for the second time that was enough for me. A little too tacky.

I'm gunna go hide now...