dbikingman

No, that isn't a typo I'm not talking about a hill, but a heel When pedaling when would you lower the heel below the pedal. I "think", I typically have my heel level or higher then the pedal.

DaveSSS 

It has been shown that attempts to alter the natural foot angle over different parts of the pedal stroke only wastes energy. It's most common for the heel to be positioned 2-3cm higher than the toes, but some people pedal with a more level foot than others. Those with a higher heel will have a taller saddle height, for a given cycling inseam.

There are several formulas and on-the-bike methods for ballparking saddle height and they all assume some significant heel rise. Those who pedal with a level foot seem to think that the formulas and methods are "wrong", but they are only starting points and those who don't raise the heel might have a 2cm lower saddle height. The whole idea is to maintain about a 30 degree bend in the knee at the bottom of the stroke.

bdcheung

just pedal naturally.

pdedes

also you must remember, ankling is a felony offense in the republic of lower dystopia

mascher

That's an excellent answer. My saddle height is all juked to go with my frame size and I was trying to learn to get my heel down when I was trying to be more intensive with trainer training this winter. I thought I was "learning" at first, but I think what I really did was better my power and form a bit, considering that I can get up the same hills as last year in a taller gear with the same cadence and smoother pedaling.

I love it when someone asks a question that has a technical answer and gets it, succinct and layered!

JonnyV

I agree with everything you said except this last part. Personally I found this much bend causes knee pain. Of course this is one of those issues where advice is meant to merely be in the ballpark. I've found that about 5 degrees of bend at the bottom of the pedal stroke is most comfortable, more than that and my knees begin to ache after just a few miles. My 2 cents.

And I almost forgot to answer the OP's question. I usually pedal with my heel slightly higher than my toes on the downstroke. Again, it's a comfort thing.

dbikingman

Thanks. I just heard the comment the other day when watching a road race on TV. The commentator mentioned something about the riders pedals with their heels lower. I wasn't sure if this was going up a hill or not. I thought I might have picked up a new technique I guess not. Then again the Pros do a lot of things I don't

DaveSSS 

Everyone is different, but the "experts" who have written books on the subject, like Andy Pruitt, say around 30 degrees. Watch the pros on TV. They don't have their legs at near full extension at the bottom of the stroke - much closer to 30 degrees than 15 or less.

You may have other issues, like incorrect saddle fore/aft position and/or foot alignment issues. For example, so your knees track straight up and down? If not, you have issures that need attention.

FWIW, if the saddle is set so the foot is horizontal at the bottom of the stroke, it only takes a 2-3cm rise of the heel to create that 30 degree included angle. Others have posted that they think this starting point is too high and you post the opposite. It's not a matter of right or wrong but a pro like Andy Pruitt would not likely set a saddle that high.

bostongarden

Ringo said it best, just ride naturally...

jonestr

I would be interested to find out if the people used for these studies were cyclists who employ ankling and dropping of the heel into their pedal stroke, or, if like most of these studies, they are on untrained populations so that it is hard to say if the results will hold for a trained population.

I can say from personal experience that when I ankle and drop my heel I feel little or no change in RPE, but I get a noticeable, and positive, change in the watts I am putting out.

Also, where are you measuring this 30deg angle from? Any normal pedal stroke will have an obtuse angle between the femur and thigh near the bottom of the pedal stroke, which seems to me would be the important angle to measure, so I dont understand where this 30deg angle is being referenced from.

bhkyte

Peddling with heels down effective? is it to do with the closed pack postion of the ankle joint .ie fully doriflexied means that less effort is reguired from lateral stabilising muscles of the ankle? This is due to the ankle being most fixed against any lateral movement in the heel down postion.

FreddyBoy

I notice that also.
I think the reason has to do with working a different set of muscles that are more rested. (sort of like how sliding back on your seat for a minute or two seems "easier" - When more likely it's just giving different muscle "locations" a break)
I know I can't "conciously" ankle for long periods of time but it helps when climbing up a steep hill. I prefer ankling to getting out of the saddle.

jonestr

It could be recruitment of different muscles or it could be a more efficient use of currently used muscle groups. I dont have great evidence to say it is more efficient use, but sliding to the back of the saddle definitely recruits different muscle groups, i.e. more glutes and hamstrings.

as an aside, It seems that riding toe down uses mostly quads, but as I pull through the pedal stroke by dropping my heel, then I am aware that I am using my hamstrings. By lowering my seat to allow for better heel drop I was able to really transform myself into a better all around cyclist. I understand that this only anecdotal, but I have many anecdotes of this same kind from when I used to do a lot of fitting.

bhkyte

Along time ago I read a book dedicated just to the pedalling action. I remember that the hamstring were active for the lomgest period ,followed by the calfs and the quads were pretty low down on the list.However this was the amount of time active ,not the total force during the pedal stroke.

I would guess that putting the ankle in to closed pack postion would "fix" the ankle allowing the stronger knee and hip joint moving muscles to better provide the power.

DaveSSS 

The 30 degree angle is the angle between the upper and lower leg. A totally straight leg would be zero. That same angle could be called 150 degrees when bent and 180 when straight.

Andy Pruitt's "Complete Medical Guide for Cyclists" has lots of good info on bike fit.