Gios Compact vs Tommasini Sintesi
06-23-09, 01:47 PM
#26
A treat for the freaks!
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All this debate over the geometry of a steel Gios and the resulting “IMMENSE differences” in handling that is “too nervous for the average rider” would lead you to believe that Gios has somehow ignored all basic rules of bike geometry and created some sort of Quasimodo bike that requires the skill of a rodeo rider to keep going in a straight-line.
I have a steel Gios Mega-lite that I have had since 2001. This bike has the same geometry as the Compact Pro being discussed here, and only differs by being TIG welded instead of lugged and having normal rear dropouts instead of adjustable ones. This bike has been my go-to bike for commuting, group rides and centuries for several years despite that fact that I also have a full Dura Ace Trek OCLV in the garage. I don’t notice any of the crazy handling traits that have been described here, and can go back and forth between the Gios and my Trek without noticing much of a difference. I can assure you that if the Gios had “nervous” handling I wouldn’t use it to commute in the vicious traffic around here. I wonder if any of the “internet experts” here have really ever ridden the bike that they are discussing.
I wanted to leave this alone, but I feel I have to speak up particularly because as we all know that through the wonders of Google (not to mention the search function on this board) this thread will probably be showing up whenever someone searches “Gios” for the next century.
I have a steel Gios Mega-lite that I have had since 2001. This bike has the same geometry as the Compact Pro being discussed here, and only differs by being TIG welded instead of lugged and having normal rear dropouts instead of adjustable ones. This bike has been my go-to bike for commuting, group rides and centuries for several years despite that fact that I also have a full Dura Ace Trek OCLV in the garage. I don’t notice any of the crazy handling traits that have been described here, and can go back and forth between the Gios and my Trek without noticing much of a difference. I can assure you that if the Gios had “nervous” handling I wouldn’t use it to commute in the vicious traffic around here. I wonder if any of the “internet experts” here have really ever ridden the bike that they are discussing.
I wanted to leave this alone, but I feel I have to speak up particularly because as we all know that through the wonders of Google (not to mention the search function on this board) this thread will probably be showing up whenever someone searches “Gios” for the next century.
06-23-09, 02:40 PM
#27
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Follow this thread to tigrrtamer's arguments on frame design (!) with Thylacine (!!) and e-RICHIE (!!!) to put his comments here in perspective:
https://www.bikeforums.net/framebuilders/445280-frame-geometry.html
FIXED!
https://www.bikeforums.net/framebuilders/445280-frame-geometry.html
FIXED!
Last edited by Jurgen; 06-23-09 at 10:05 PM. Reason: my own stupidity
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06-23-09, 09:37 PM
#29
Senior Member
All this debate over the geometry of a steel Gios and the resulting “IMMENSE differences” in handling that is “too nervous for the average rider” would lead you to believe that Gios has somehow ignored all basic rules of bike geometry and created some sort of Quasimodo bike that requires the skill of a rodeo rider to keep going in a straight-line.
I have a steel Gios Mega-lite that I have had since 2001. This bike has the same geometry as the Compact Pro being discussed here, and only differs by being TIG welded instead of lugged and having normal rear dropouts instead of adjustable ones. This bike has been my go-to bike for commuting, group rides and centuries for several years despite that fact that I also have a full Dura Ace Trek OCLV in the garage. I don’t notice any of the crazy handling traits that have been described here, and can go back and forth between the Gios and my Trek without noticing much of a difference. I can assure you that if the Gios had “nervous” handling I wouldn’t use it to commute in the vicious traffic around here. I wonder if any of the “internet experts” here have really ever ridden the bike that they are discussing.
I have a steel Gios Mega-lite that I have had since 2001. This bike has the same geometry as the Compact Pro being discussed here, and only differs by being TIG welded instead of lugged and having normal rear dropouts instead of adjustable ones. This bike has been my go-to bike for commuting, group rides and centuries for several years despite that fact that I also have a full Dura Ace Trek OCLV in the garage. I don’t notice any of the crazy handling traits that have been described here, and can go back and forth between the Gios and my Trek without noticing much of a difference. I can assure you that if the Gios had “nervous” handling I wouldn’t use it to commute in the vicious traffic around here. I wonder if any of the “internet experts” here have really ever ridden the bike that they are discussing.
06-23-09, 09:39 PM
#30
Senior Member
[QUOTE=Jurgen;9153365]Follow this thread to tigrrtamer's arguments on frame design (!) with Thylacine (!!) and e-RICHIE (!!!) to put his comments here in perspective:
Jürgen, even if you have a boatload of people screaming that the sky is green, it doesn't mean that the person saying it is blue is wrong. You can rant and rave and throw a childish fit all you want, your comments were myopic and ignorant. Period. Now suck it up and try taking it like a man and not like a kid!!!
Jürgen, even if you have a boatload of people screaming that the sky is green, it doesn't mean that the person saying it is blue is wrong. You can rant and rave and throw a childish fit all you want, your comments were myopic and ignorant. Period. Now suck it up and try taking it like a man and not like a kid!!!
06-23-09, 09:48 PM
#31
Descends Like Avalanche
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Follow this thread to tigrrtamer's arguments on frame design (!) with Thylacine (!!) and e-RICHIE (!!!) to put his comments here in perspective:
https://www.bikeforums.net/showthread.php?t=445280
https://www.bikeforums.net/showthread.php?t=445280
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06-23-09, 09:49 PM
#32
Aluminium Crusader :-)
Follow this thread to tigrrtamer's arguments on frame design (!) with Thylacine (!!) and e-RICHIE (!!!) to put his comments here in perspective:
https://www.bikeforums.net/showthread.php?t=445280
https://www.bikeforums.net/showthread.php?t=445280
I think this is the thread:
https://www.bikeforums.net/showthread.php?t=445280
06-23-09, 10:01 PM
#33
Aluminium Crusader :-)
For me, "nervous" handling is a good thing... perhaps I should have used the term "very responsive" instead. It was meant as a compliment to the Gios. In my opinion, the Tommassini is a slouch best used for touring and sport riding, while the Gios is a real racing machine. .
In my opinion, there are other factors apart from twitchy steering, cornering 'whippiness', steep seat tubes, and short wheelbases which make a bike feel more 'racey' or 'tourey', such as stiffness and large weight differences (over, say 2kg). I have racey bikes with slacker angles which feel more race-ready than my steeper 'agressively geometreed' steel bikes, because they're stiffer, etc. I had an alu Scapin S2 which even had a 72.5 degree head-tube, but it was a good race bike.
Although, I should say that after riding '80s bikes with whippy steering for a long time, it took me ages to get used to modern frames with slacker head tubes. Fast-steering bikes feel nippy and zippy off the saddle -- and they seem to corner quicker -- so my modern frames felt a little unresponsive for a long time. Overall, though, I now prefer more stable steering, even for criteriums.
Last edited by 531Aussie; 06-23-09 at 10:09 PM.
06-23-09, 10:18 PM
#34
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The Tomassini frame geometry is conventional as outlined in Cinelli's guidelines published in 1972 and which the majority of framebuilders and manufacturers follow to this day. (no one seems to have read the part in the geometry chapter of that Cinelli book where he states that once the roads get better we'll be able to use steeper angles). It is a well-behaved racing bike that you can also go on long rides with, and it'll handle very similarly to other racing bikes. A good all around bike that will get more stares than a Gios. If the Tommasini is too long for you, either buy the next size down (with a shorter top tube) using a longer seat post, OR buy your originally intended size and get a shorter stem. Don't get me wrong... although I say well-behaved, it is still a "racing" geometry. A smaller frame will make it slightly more nervous, but still not as much as a Gios.
For me, "nervous" handling is a good thing... perhaps I should have used the term "very responsive" instead. It was meant as a compliment to the Gios. In my opinion, the Tommassini is a slouch best used for touring and sport riding, while the Gios is a real racing machine. But I didn't want to come flat out and say that, as I was trying to be unbiased and make my posts as helpful as possible to the person trying to make a choice here. I deal with lots of people I build bikes for and see too many beginners or sport riders who are used to very conservative handling.
06-23-09, 10:21 PM
#35
Senior Member
Juergen is once again just speed reading and not capting the message contained within the texts... in my opinion he needs to do some reading up on bike design, or take reading lessons first.
But we stray from this thread's initial purpose, don't we?
Last edited by Timmi; 06-23-09 at 10:39 PM.
06-28-09, 04:20 AM
#36
Junior Member
I ride a 2001 Sintesi...
It is definitely not a criterium bike - it has what I describe as a tad of understeer - I have to force the bike into a sharp turn when I need to...
The seatube is laid back - the headtube is laid back as well - so reach and comfort is not a problem.
It is definitely a road bike that can handle distance with comfort - and race if necessary. It does fine on hills - but it ain't a stiff Masi 3V if that's what you want...
On descents - handling is excellent - you are completely in control even at 50 MPH - i.e., no jitter concerns.
My wife calls it hanging art when I'm not riding it...it really does grab folks eyeballs.
Gios Compacts are very nice framesets...however paint can be an issue. A friend of mine likes Gios - he has a couple - and both came out of the box with obvious paint defects. Despite the paint - he is quite happy with his Gios's.
=8-)
It is definitely not a criterium bike - it has what I describe as a tad of understeer - I have to force the bike into a sharp turn when I need to...
The seatube is laid back - the headtube is laid back as well - so reach and comfort is not a problem.
It is definitely a road bike that can handle distance with comfort - and race if necessary. It does fine on hills - but it ain't a stiff Masi 3V if that's what you want...
On descents - handling is excellent - you are completely in control even at 50 MPH - i.e., no jitter concerns.
My wife calls it hanging art when I'm not riding it...it really does grab folks eyeballs.
Gios Compacts are very nice framesets...however paint can be an issue. A friend of mine likes Gios - he has a couple - and both came out of the box with obvious paint defects. Despite the paint - he is quite happy with his Gios's.
=8-)
06-28-09, 04:42 AM
#37
Junior Member
I see.
In my opinion, there are other factors apart from twitchy steering, cornering 'whippiness', steep seat tubes, and short wheelbases which make a bike feel more 'racey' or 'tourey', such as stiffness and large weight differences (over, say 2kg). I have racey bikes with slacker angles which feel more race-ready than my steeper 'agressively geometreed' steel bikes, because they're stiffer, etc. I had an alu Scapin S2 which even had a 72.5 degree head-tube, but it was a good race bike.
Although, I should say that after riding '80s bikes with whippy steering for a long time, it took me ages to get used to modern frames with slacker head tubes. Fast-steering bikes feel nippy and zippy off the saddle -- and they seem to corner quicker -- so my modern frames felt a little unresponsive for a long time. Overall, though, I now prefer more stable steering, even for criteriums.
In my opinion, there are other factors apart from twitchy steering, cornering 'whippiness', steep seat tubes, and short wheelbases which make a bike feel more 'racey' or 'tourey', such as stiffness and large weight differences (over, say 2kg). I have racey bikes with slacker angles which feel more race-ready than my steeper 'agressively geometreed' steel bikes, because they're stiffer, etc. I had an alu Scapin S2 which even had a 72.5 degree head-tube, but it was a good race bike.
Although, I should say that after riding '80s bikes with whippy steering for a long time, it took me ages to get used to modern frames with slacker head tubes. Fast-steering bikes feel nippy and zippy off the saddle -- and they seem to corner quicker -- so my modern frames felt a little unresponsive for a long time. Overall, though, I now prefer more stable steering, even for criteriums.
Since we are doing a comparison of 2 steel bikes where one could assume similar stiffness and weight, Gios would come out on top as a race / crit bike. But you must all remember that the bike for the OP is the one that will FIT him best (there is also a riding style to consider).
So how do you find a bike with ideal geometry for you? In my case, it took few years, about 30 000 km of riding and 4 bikes. You need to spend time on the bike before you find the one that "speaks" to you.
So should OP choose Tommasini or Gios? I haven't got a clue.
06-28-09, 06:59 AM
#38
Gios my baby
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Gios: good crit bike, poor decender.
06-28-09, 09:45 AM
#39
Aluminium Crusader :-)
Ray Dobbins is selling his Gios Super Record.
Only $2,500
https://www.raydobbins.com/ebay/bike-...s_for_sale.htm
Only $2,500
https://www.raydobbins.com/ebay/bike-...s_for_sale.htm
06-28-09, 10:26 AM
#41
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It was only a couple guys arguying that there is no such thing as a "criterium" frame geometry... that a race geometry is a race geometry, and that they're all the same, and that a standard race geometry is just fine for crits. I was trying to explain that there actually is such a thing as a criterium geometry (it's like a Gios versus a Tommassini... perfect example), as I had owned a crit bike and it was quite different in handling from my road racing bikes. At least one of those guys was a framebuilder, and it was starting to become obvious that he was on the defensive for his own personal design philosophy he was imposing on his clients, as he had no optimized-for-criteriums bikes to offer. A visit to a few of his competitor's websites did confirm that there is actually such a thing as a criterium-optimized frame geometry, in the eyes of other expert framebuilders.
Juergen is once again just speed reading and not capting the message contained within the texts... in my opinion he needs to do some reading up on bike design, or take reading lessons first.
But we stray from this thread's initial purpose, don't we?
Juergen is once again just speed reading and not capting the message contained within the texts... in my opinion he needs to do some reading up on bike design, or take reading lessons first.
But we stray from this thread's initial purpose, don't we?
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