Quijibo187

Hey campy users,
I'm currently using non QS Chorus shifters with a QS front derailer, I find that sometimes I have to give it a partial shift before my full shift to get the chain onto the big chainring smoothly (even if I over tension the cable a bit).

Will getting a set of QS shifters fix this problem, I seem to remember hearing that his is what they were developed for.

Thanks,

DaveSSS 

Actually, that will not solve your problem. All QS does is reduce the amount of dead travel in the left finger lever, it does not increase the number of clicks that can be executed with one sweep of the finger lever (5) or increase the cable pull. If the cable is routed correctly and has the proper tension, then it should take only four clicks to cover the full range of travel. 5 clicks are only used when shifting a triple from the little ring to the middle ring.

You mentioned over tensioning the cable. To adjust the FD correctly, set the low limit screw in the little ring and largest cog without the cable attached. Push the thumb button all the way down so there are no more clicks. Attach the cable and gradually increase tension until you can make the shift to the big ring with one sweep of four clicks. If you have too much tension on the cable it will override the low limit screw and cause chain rub in the little ring and largest cog and/or the shift back to the little ring will not execute.

Quijibo187

so if the QS is designed to eliminate some of the dead travel at the beginning of a shift, shouldn't it also help to engage the derailer faster? essentially eliminating some of the extra travel of the lever?

DaveSSS 

Yes it reduces the finger lever travel, but the FD doesn't care where the finger lever is. It needs a certain amount of cable pull to function properly and either a QS or non QS shifter will do that. The FD would only fail to operate properly if you fail to swing the finger lever as far as it will go.

If you've ever owned a triple, you'd have to learn that real quick.

Be sure that you have the cable routed properly. With the '08 QS FD that I have, I route the cable between the small metal tab on the left side of the arm and the clamp bolt, not over the left side of the tab. The new '09 FDs requires the cable to go over the left side of the tab, rather than between it and the bolt. If the cable is routed like an '08 FD, it will not function properly. Campy's instructions are nonexistant with regard to the cable routing. I figured out the '09 model the hard way.

Bob Dopolina 

Campagnolo designs all of their products to work in conjunction with one and other. The QS system was designed to decrease the amount of cable pull needed to shift the FR der resulting in quicker shifting. This translated into a shorter 'sweep' needed to actuate shifting. The number of 'clicks' is irrelevant.

This means that your older shifters aren't pulling enough cable to actuate the shift. Switching to a QS EP lever will solve the problem.

Quijibo187

I'll try adjusting the cable position then...
although I have found a great deal on some record QS shifters.....

Quijibo187

ahh... that's what I though bob, that they had changed the cable pull slightly.
**really I'm just looking for a reason to get record shifters**

Surferbruce

i'm using some 09 centaur shifters with a QS front dr right now and it works perfectly, even though campy says it shouldn't. If you're going to buy new shifters I'd go with the new ones. Way better shape.

Quijibo187

Hmm... I still havn't been able to try the new shifters, I really like the style I have so I'll stick with that for now.
Maybe once I see/feel the new ones, I'll think about 09 stuff.

DaveSSS 

I'm certain that you are wrong. QS does NOTHING but reduce the dead travel in the left finger lever. The maximum single sweep is still 5 clicks and the cable travel is the SAME. Since the cable starts pulling sooner the finger lever just doesn't have to move as far. 5 clicks (one full sweep) of a pre-QS shifter will create far more cable pull than any double FD needs. It should cover the full range with 4 clicks.

As for the cable pull, the QS FD requires MORE cable pull, since it has a longer lever arm. Older FDs only required 3-clicks to cover the full range and QS FDs require 4 clicks.

The reason I'm so certain of this is I was running two triples with both the QS and pre QS shifters for quite awhile. A triple FD requires 5 clicks worth of cable travel to make the little ring to big ring shift and that did not change one bit when I changed the shifters to a QS model. The finger lever just didn't have to travel quite as far to make the maximum 5 click sweep. In all, it take 7 clicks to cover the full range of a triple FD.

DaveSSS 

I'm doing the same on one bike. I routed the shift cable between the quide tab and clamp bolt and it take 4 clicks to cover the full range of travel. I also set this FD up with 11 speed and it worked fine.

Campag4life

I too love the new shifters and have acclimated to the soft RH lever shift but took awhile. The ergos are terrific. I too run mine with the QS derailleur and campact double and it shifts beautifully. Campy just wanted to sell a new derailleur with their new Ultrashift. ...wasn't buyin.

Bob Dopolina 

Sorry all. I posted late last night and the information I posted wasn't terribly clear.

The number of clicks has no relation to the amount of cable being pulled. The clicks are determined by the disc in the shifter. The shape of the cam that actually pulls the cable is what affects the amount of cable being pulled per click.

The QS system was designed to reduce the sweep needed to actuate shifting. The result of this is that shifting begins earlier (as Dave SSS points out - removing the dead spot at the beginning of the lever movement) and you should be able to get up onto the big ring quicker. This was mostly accomplished by changing the geometry in the FR Der.

The sweep on the 11spd was reduced even further (17% over 2008 IIRC).


Using and older lever with this can mean that you need to sweep the shift lever further to get up to the big ring. There are plenty of anecdotal stories to the contrary, however.

The change in the 11spd FR Der was about changing the structure of the der to make is so that there is less play (rocking?) in the der. As far as I know the geometry remains unchanged so you should be able to use older QS FR der with newer 11spd lever without issue.

Sorry if I caused a bit of confusion here.

DaveSSS 

Technical writing doesn't seem to be your area of expertise. The number of clicks most certainly has a "relation" to the amount of cable being pulled. With any given shifter, 4 or 5 clicks will pull more cable than 3 clicks, so the relationship is the obvious - more clicks equals more cable pull.

The pre-2009 (non-escape) left shifters all had 12 clicks available from the left finger lever, but no more than 7 were ever needed (to operate a triple FD). The 2009 ultrashift models only have 6 clicks in total. One of the first things I did was to measure the maximum cable pull from these 6 clicks to be sure there was still enough cable pull to operate a pre-2009 triple FD. There is, so the total cable pull from these 6 clicks is at least as much as formerly pulled with 7 clicks. Obviously there is some difference in the cable pull per click. That's not a problem since all that is really required is enough cable pull.

The geometry of the '09 FD is obviously different than the '08. The lever arm on the '09 is shorter and the cable routing has changed. If you route the cable between the metal tab and clamp bolt on the '09 FD, it will not work properly.

Quijibo187

I ordered some record QS shifters anyway, they were on clearance so I should be able to unload my chorus and be even.

DaveSSS 

I would have bought the 2009 Centaur ultrashift levers from the UK. A lot cheaper ($170), more comfortable, with all the quality of Record.

https://www.ribblecycles.co.uk/Produc...29&RootCatID=1

clausen

Will '05 Centaur (pre escape) work a '08 or '09 Centaur FR der.?

DaveSSS 

Any Campy non-escape shifter will work with any Campy FD - double, triple, QS (or not). The cable routing must be correct to match the FD, as previously noted. The '08 and '09 models have a different cable routing.

Quijibo187

actually, the deal I got on the shifters is less than for those centaurs.

DaveSSS 

If you got new Record shifters for $170, then you got a good deal, but I much prefer the ultrashift brake hood and lever design. I sold off all of my pre 2009 shifters.

Quijibo187

who knows, maybe once I try out some of the 09 stuff this thread will have been in vain.

Bob Dopolina 

Ouch. You almost made me cry.

You're right, this is rather obvious...

Rendering the 'number' of clicks irrelevant.

Which, as I have pointed out, is the key factor.

As I mentioned the FR der has been redesigned. I have been assured that the geometry around which the der travels is unchanged; The cage will travel the same distance for the amount of cable pulled.

Again, this is the key issue.

I have not personally verified this statement. I take it at face value as it is from a credible source. If someone wants to spend their time and energy refuting this claim they certainly can but I have nothing more to say on the subject.

DaveSSS 

Bob...

What most people want to know is whether a certain combination will work or not. Sometimes you just have to try things yourself. In the case of the cable pulls, my expereince says that prior to 2009, Campy never made any significant changes to the left side cable pull. Pre QS shifters operate a triple FD just the same as QS models - with 7 clicks covering the full range of travel. The finger lever just doesn't have to travel quite as far. If there was a change to the cable pull, it would have shown up with a triple. You can convert an earlier model to QS with the front ratchet that costs about $6.

The 2009 models are obviously different, since 6 clicks will pull at least as much cable as 7 from previous shifters. They still have enough cable pull to operate a triple, although I haven't set one up yet. I just measured the cable pull to be sure that it was possible. Not rocket science.

Here's another example. Campy changed the RD actuation ratio slightly with the new 11 speed RD. I did a real world test and found that a 10 speed RD would come up just a little short on the travel to operate an 11 speed drivetrain. A little grinding on the shift cable clamp bolt will shorten the effective lever arm length and correct that very small difference in the actuation ratio, so the 10 speed RD will work great with 11 speed. You won't learn stuff like that from Campy.

Bob Dopolina 

True.

Point taken.

Quijibo187

Can we all hold hands now?