How much $ to start a pro team
05-06-09, 09:13 AM
#1
Senior Member
Thread Starter
Join Date: Nov 2007
Posts: 402
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 0 Times
in
0 Posts
How much $ to start a pro team
Given Astana's money woes (https://www.cyclingnews.com/news.php?...may09/may06new) and Armstrong's expressed desire to start a new team in 2010 in which he can be owner/director/rider, I was wonder how much it costs to operate a pro team.
Say Bill Gates got super into cycling (btw: why is no one working on this???) and wanted to start Team Gates Foundation and be the only sponsor (because that’s how he rolls)...how much bacon would that cost?
Say Bill Gates got super into cycling (btw: why is no one working on this???) and wanted to start Team Gates Foundation and be the only sponsor (because that’s how he rolls)...how much bacon would that cost?
05-06-09, 09:37 AM
#2
Burning Matches.
Join Date: Jan 2006
Location: San Jose, CA
Posts: 9,714
Mentioned: 9 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 4077 Post(s)
Liked 1,002 Times
in
676 Posts
You know there's a bunch of different levels of 'pro', right?
__________________
ElJamoquio didn't hate the world, per se; he was just constantly disappointed by humanity.
05-06-09, 09:38 AM
#3
Senior Member
I think you can get a ProTour team together for a couple million $. Astana I'm sure is much more than that.
Domestic pro team - $100-500k. At $100k you'll be working your guys hard and they won't be able to do every race. By the end of the season they'll be burned out, traveled out, virtually useless. But much tougher, and they'll appreciate a higher budget team. At $500k you're in decent shape, you have some good riders and you can do a bunch of races. Racers can cost as little as $5-7k/year salary. You get equipment sponsors (car, bike, clothing, gear, food). Now you need hotel and travel costs - that's what costs the most. You can go lower than $100k but you'll be extremely limited.
The domestic pro numbers I got from a domestic pro director. The first number I pulled out of thin air, sort of. I read some numbers that implied Discovery's budget was $20mil, but I don't know if that's correct. "Implied" means they said they need $x in one article, then in another they said they need y% of their budget.
I got to look at a big team's budget and it was surprising how much money an equipment sponsor may toss into the equation. Equipment sponsors may also get other things. For example, if Specialized sponsors a team, the team may require that Specialized make a few of their existing trucks available to them for particular races (think 18 wheeler type trade show trucks). You wouldn't think of Specialized supplying trucks or cars or vans but the team could request it. I know other companies have big trucks, and anyone that has their own vehicles at tradeshows like Interbike will probably have vehicles available.
I think the top women make only $30k/year without prize money. I read something like that recently. Someone told me that he could have sponsored a top woman racer in the early 90s for $20k/year.
For pro teams, remember that you may need to pay some "extra" entry fees to get into races. They can run as much as $100-500k for ONE race, and that's a race held within the US. If you don't pay, you don't get selected to race. No selection, no publicity. No publicity, no sponsor. Sometimes the sponsor will ante up, sometimes not.
On Gates, I think his policy has been to do charitable things only, no sports. I read that somewhere when I thought, "Hey, he could cut us a check for like $5k and not miss any of it... I wonder if he'll sponsor our team." I think he wouldn't even sponsor a softball team. He does give gobs of money to charities.
cdr
Domestic pro team - $100-500k. At $100k you'll be working your guys hard and they won't be able to do every race. By the end of the season they'll be burned out, traveled out, virtually useless. But much tougher, and they'll appreciate a higher budget team. At $500k you're in decent shape, you have some good riders and you can do a bunch of races. Racers can cost as little as $5-7k/year salary. You get equipment sponsors (car, bike, clothing, gear, food). Now you need hotel and travel costs - that's what costs the most. You can go lower than $100k but you'll be extremely limited.
The domestic pro numbers I got from a domestic pro director. The first number I pulled out of thin air, sort of. I read some numbers that implied Discovery's budget was $20mil, but I don't know if that's correct. "Implied" means they said they need $x in one article, then in another they said they need y% of their budget.
I got to look at a big team's budget and it was surprising how much money an equipment sponsor may toss into the equation. Equipment sponsors may also get other things. For example, if Specialized sponsors a team, the team may require that Specialized make a few of their existing trucks available to them for particular races (think 18 wheeler type trade show trucks). You wouldn't think of Specialized supplying trucks or cars or vans but the team could request it. I know other companies have big trucks, and anyone that has their own vehicles at tradeshows like Interbike will probably have vehicles available.
I think the top women make only $30k/year without prize money. I read something like that recently. Someone told me that he could have sponsored a top woman racer in the early 90s for $20k/year.
For pro teams, remember that you may need to pay some "extra" entry fees to get into races. They can run as much as $100-500k for ONE race, and that's a race held within the US. If you don't pay, you don't get selected to race. No selection, no publicity. No publicity, no sponsor. Sometimes the sponsor will ante up, sometimes not.
On Gates, I think his policy has been to do charitable things only, no sports. I read that somewhere when I thought, "Hey, he could cut us a check for like $5k and not miss any of it... I wonder if he'll sponsor our team." I think he wouldn't even sponsor a softball team. He does give gobs of money to charities.
cdr
05-06-09, 09:49 AM
#4
Senior Member
Join Date: Feb 2007
Posts: 3,917
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 0 Times
in
0 Posts
I think you can get a ProTour team together for a couple million $. Astana I'm sure is much more than that.
Domestic pro team - $100-500k. At $100k you'll be working your guys hard and they won't be able to do every race. By the end of the season they'll be burned out, traveled out, virtually useless. But much tougher, and they'll appreciate a higher budget team. At $500k you're in decent shape, you have some good riders and you can do a bunch of races. Racers can cost as little as $5-7k/year salary. You get equipment sponsors (car, bike, clothing, gear, food). Now you need hotel and travel costs - that's what costs the most. You can go lower than $100k but you'll be extremely limited.
The domestic pro numbers I got from a domestic pro director. The first number I pulled out of thin air, sort of. I read some numbers that implied Discovery's budget was $20mil, but I don't know if that's correct. "Implied" means they said they need $x in one article, then in another they said they need y% of their budget.
I got to look at a big team's budget and it was surprising how much money an equipment sponsor may toss into the equation. Equipment sponsors may also get other things. For example, if Specialized sponsors a team, the team may require that Specialized make a few of their existing trucks available to them for particular races (think 18 wheeler type trade show trucks). You wouldn't think of Specialized supplying trucks or cars or vans but the team could request it. I know other companies have big trucks, and anyone that has their own vehicles at tradeshows like Interbike will probably have vehicles available.
I think the top women make only $30k/year without prize money. I read something like that recently. Someone told me that he could have sponsored a top woman racer in the early 90s for $20k/year.
For pro teams, remember that you may need to pay some "extra" entry fees to get into races. They can run as much as $100-500k for ONE race, and that's a race held within the US. If you don't pay, you don't get selected to race. No selection, no publicity. No publicity, no sponsor. Sometimes the sponsor will ante up, sometimes not.
On Gates, I think his policy has been to do charitable things only, no sports. I read that somewhere when I thought, "Hey, he could cut us a check for like $5k and not miss any of it... I wonder if he'll sponsor our team." I think he wouldn't even sponsor a softball team. He does give gobs of money to charities.
cdr
Domestic pro team - $100-500k. At $100k you'll be working your guys hard and they won't be able to do every race. By the end of the season they'll be burned out, traveled out, virtually useless. But much tougher, and they'll appreciate a higher budget team. At $500k you're in decent shape, you have some good riders and you can do a bunch of races. Racers can cost as little as $5-7k/year salary. You get equipment sponsors (car, bike, clothing, gear, food). Now you need hotel and travel costs - that's what costs the most. You can go lower than $100k but you'll be extremely limited.
The domestic pro numbers I got from a domestic pro director. The first number I pulled out of thin air, sort of. I read some numbers that implied Discovery's budget was $20mil, but I don't know if that's correct. "Implied" means they said they need $x in one article, then in another they said they need y% of their budget.
I got to look at a big team's budget and it was surprising how much money an equipment sponsor may toss into the equation. Equipment sponsors may also get other things. For example, if Specialized sponsors a team, the team may require that Specialized make a few of their existing trucks available to them for particular races (think 18 wheeler type trade show trucks). You wouldn't think of Specialized supplying trucks or cars or vans but the team could request it. I know other companies have big trucks, and anyone that has their own vehicles at tradeshows like Interbike will probably have vehicles available.
I think the top women make only $30k/year without prize money. I read something like that recently. Someone told me that he could have sponsored a top woman racer in the early 90s for $20k/year.
For pro teams, remember that you may need to pay some "extra" entry fees to get into races. They can run as much as $100-500k for ONE race, and that's a race held within the US. If you don't pay, you don't get selected to race. No selection, no publicity. No publicity, no sponsor. Sometimes the sponsor will ante up, sometimes not.
On Gates, I think his policy has been to do charitable things only, no sports. I read that somewhere when I thought, "Hey, he could cut us a check for like $5k and not miss any of it... I wonder if he'll sponsor our team." I think he wouldn't even sponsor a softball team. He does give gobs of money to charities.
cdr
And there lies the reason many dislike Lance.
05-06-09, 10:43 AM
#5
Senior Member
Thread Starter
Join Date: Nov 2007
Posts: 402
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 0 Times
in
0 Posts
I think you can get a ProTour team together for a couple million $. Astana I'm sure is much more than that.
Domestic pro team - $100-500k. At $100k you'll be working your guys hard and they won't be able to do every race. By the end of the season they'll be burned out, traveled out, virtually useless. But much tougher, and they'll appreciate a higher budget team. At $500k you're in decent shape, you have some good riders and you can do a bunch of races. Racers can cost as little as $5-7k/year salary. You get equipment sponsors (car, bike, clothing, gear, food). Now you need hotel and travel costs - that's what costs the most. You can go lower than $100k but you'll be extremely limited.
The domestic pro numbers I got from a domestic pro director. The first number I pulled out of thin air, sort of. I read some numbers that implied Discovery's budget was $20mil, but I don't know if that's correct. "Implied" means they said they need $x in one article, then in another they said they need y% of their budget.
I got to look at a big team's budget and it was surprising how much money an equipment sponsor may toss into the equation. Equipment sponsors may also get other things. For example, if Specialized sponsors a team, the team may require that Specialized make a few of their existing trucks available to them for particular races (think 18 wheeler type trade show trucks). You wouldn't think of Specialized supplying trucks or cars or vans but the team could request it. I know other companies have big trucks, and anyone that has their own vehicles at tradeshows like Interbike will probably have vehicles available.
I think the top women make only $30k/year without prize money. I read something like that recently. Someone told me that he could have sponsored a top woman racer in the early 90s for $20k/year.
For pro teams, remember that you may need to pay some "extra" entry fees to get into races. They can run as much as $100-500k for ONE race, and that's a race held within the US. If you don't pay, you don't get selected to race. No selection, no publicity. No publicity, no sponsor. Sometimes the sponsor will ante up, sometimes not.
he wouldn't even sponsor a softball team. He does give gobs of money to charities.
cdr
Domestic pro team - $100-500k. At $100k you'll be working your guys hard and they won't be able to do every race. By the end of the season they'll be burned out, traveled out, virtually useless. But much tougher, and they'll appreciate a higher budget team. At $500k you're in decent shape, you have some good riders and you can do a bunch of races. Racers can cost as little as $5-7k/year salary. You get equipment sponsors (car, bike, clothing, gear, food). Now you need hotel and travel costs - that's what costs the most. You can go lower than $100k but you'll be extremely limited.
The domestic pro numbers I got from a domestic pro director. The first number I pulled out of thin air, sort of. I read some numbers that implied Discovery's budget was $20mil, but I don't know if that's correct. "Implied" means they said they need $x in one article, then in another they said they need y% of their budget.
I got to look at a big team's budget and it was surprising how much money an equipment sponsor may toss into the equation. Equipment sponsors may also get other things. For example, if Specialized sponsors a team, the team may require that Specialized make a few of their existing trucks available to them for particular races (think 18 wheeler type trade show trucks). You wouldn't think of Specialized supplying trucks or cars or vans but the team could request it. I know other companies have big trucks, and anyone that has their own vehicles at tradeshows like Interbike will probably have vehicles available.
I think the top women make only $30k/year without prize money. I read something like that recently. Someone told me that he could have sponsored a top woman racer in the early 90s for $20k/year.
For pro teams, remember that you may need to pay some "extra" entry fees to get into races. They can run as much as $100-500k for ONE race, and that's a race held within the US. If you don't pay, you don't get selected to race. No selection, no publicity. No publicity, no sponsor. Sometimes the sponsor will ante up, sometimes not.
he wouldn't even sponsor a softball team. He does give gobs of money to charities.
cdr
05-06-09, 11:08 AM
#6
Senior Member
What do you mean by "domestic" pro team? Is that like the house league in comparison with the travel league?
05-06-09, 12:11 PM
#8
In Real Life
Join Date: Jan 2003
Location: Down under down under
Posts: 52,152
Bikes: Lots
Mentioned: 141 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 3203 Post(s)
Liked 596 Times
in
329 Posts
Shouldn't this be in the Pro Cycling forum?
__________________
Rowan
My fave photo threads on BF
Century A Month Facebook Group
Machka's Website
Photo Gallery
Rowan
My fave photo threads on BF
Century A Month Facebook Group
Machka's Website
Photo Gallery
05-07-09, 03:05 PM
#9
Senior Member
Join Date: Feb 2009
Location: PNW - Victoria, BC
Posts: 1,486
Bikes: 2002 Litespeed Vortex - 2007 Trek Madone 5.9 - 2004 Redline Conquest Pro - Specialized S-Works Festina Team Model - 93 Cannondale M 800 Beast of the East
Mentioned: 1 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 6 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 1 Time
in
1 Post
Quote from Lance regarding funding of Astana:
“If someone commits to fund a team for half a year, that’s $7 or $8 million,” Armstrong said. “For a full season it’s $14 to $20 million. That’s a serious decision and can’t be made in 20 to 30 days.”
It ain't cheap.
“If someone commits to fund a team for half a year, that’s $7 or $8 million,” Armstrong said. “For a full season it’s $14 to $20 million. That’s a serious decision and can’t be made in 20 to 30 days.”
It ain't cheap.
05-07-09, 03:26 PM
#10
Senior Member
Join Date: Nov 2007
Posts: 632
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 0 Times
in
0 Posts
I had heard that $20 million number thrown about as well. Keep in mind, however, that that's the TOTAL budget which includes salaries, transportation, equipment, and a million other things. So out of that total, you've got mulitple sponsors participating.
So let's say you're team Garmin (just to pull one out of the hat).
Garmin will be on the hook for a certain dollar amount. But Felt is their bike sponsor. So instead of paying (at cost) for the bikes that the team uses, Felt can give those to the team for free. Felt is still out whatever the value of the bikes is, and the team doesn't have to spend $8000 per bike for each rider. So if that comes down to $8k/bike x 20 riders x 2.5 bikes each, that's $400,000 toward the $20million. In reality, Felt might also pay some cash on top of that amount.
So when you see all of those other "little" logos on the riders' jerseys, all of that helps defray that $20million...whether it's cash or value.
So let's say you're team Garmin (just to pull one out of the hat).
Garmin will be on the hook for a certain dollar amount. But Felt is their bike sponsor. So instead of paying (at cost) for the bikes that the team uses, Felt can give those to the team for free. Felt is still out whatever the value of the bikes is, and the team doesn't have to spend $8000 per bike for each rider. So if that comes down to $8k/bike x 20 riders x 2.5 bikes each, that's $400,000 toward the $20million. In reality, Felt might also pay some cash on top of that amount.
So when you see all of those other "little" logos on the riders' jerseys, all of that helps defray that $20million...whether it's cash or value.
05-07-09, 03:47 PM
#11
Senior Member
Join Date: Feb 2009
Location: PNW - Victoria, BC
Posts: 1,486
Bikes: 2002 Litespeed Vortex - 2007 Trek Madone 5.9 - 2004 Redline Conquest Pro - Specialized S-Works Festina Team Model - 93 Cannondale M 800 Beast of the East
Mentioned: 1 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 6 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 1 Time
in
1 Post
Yep, many different avenues for "funding". This year we're supplying tires to Liquigas, but no cash (as far as I know). Are we on the kit? Nope. I think we get a logo on the team bus or something like that. What we do get is feedback on our tires from top notch pros. Real world R&D that you can't get any other way.
Last year we were on Team Columbia and Gerolsteiner. Great exposure (in spite of the doping allegations on the Gerolsteiner team) given the number of wins and the days in Yellow and taking the Polka Dot jersey.
Last year we were on Team Columbia and Gerolsteiner. Great exposure (in spite of the doping allegations on the Gerolsteiner team) given the number of wins and the days in Yellow and taking the Polka Dot jersey.
Last edited by Kojak; 05-07-09 at 03:53 PM.
05-07-09, 03:58 PM
#13
Senior Member
Join Date: Feb 2009
Location: Rutland, VT
Posts: 134
Bikes: Specialized 2006 Allez Elite
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 0 Times
in
0 Posts
I think Gates foundation is a 501(c) and couldn't sponsor a "for profit" pro team. Like LAF couldnt sponsor the team as the article stated (or some other article.) Would be sweet tho.
05-07-09, 04:39 PM
#16
pan y agua
Join Date: Aug 2005
Location: Jacksonville
Posts: 31,303
Bikes: Willier Zero 7; Merlin Extralight; Calfee Dragonfly tandem, Calfee Adventure tandem; Cervelo P2; Motebecane Ti Fly 29er; Motebecanne Phantom Cross; Schwinn Paramount Track bike
Mentioned: 17 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1447 Post(s)
Liked 727 Times
in
372 Posts
https://www.cyclingtipsblog.com/2009/...s-it-all-mean/
I think CDR's math is pretty good. The minimums you have to have are the $9100 registration fee, and have a bank guarantee for $5500, or 10% of salaries.
But that doesn't include travel etc.
A friend of mine helped run a Division 3 pro team a few years ago. They paid their racers $500 a month in season, a food per diem on days they actually raced, and the racers could live in a house the team rented if they chose.
Of course their equipment, travel, and entry fees were covered, and they also got prize money.
Pretty bare bones existence.
__________________
You could fall off a cliff and die.
You could get lost and die.
You could hit a tree and die.
OR YOU COULD STAY HOME AND FALL OFF THE COUCH AND DIE.
You could fall off a cliff and die.
You could get lost and die.
You could hit a tree and die.
OR YOU COULD STAY HOME AND FALL OFF THE COUCH AND DIE.
Last edited by merlinextraligh; 05-07-09 at 04:44 PM.
05-11-09, 08:37 AM
#18
Senior Member
Originally Posted by rousseau
What do you mean by "domestic" pro team? Is that like the house league in comparison with the travel league?
https://www.cyclingtipsblog.com/2009/...s-it-all-mean/
05-11-09, 09:21 AM
#19
Senior Member
A note: Microsoft sponsored a team in South Africa for a while. You could buy the jerseys over the internet, and I know one (now ex-) MS employee who had one and wore it every now and then.
Equipment sponsors not only supply equipment but money and non-company related things (like vehicles, vehicle decal wraps, etc). For example, Felt may supply all the vehicles to Garmin while they're in the US, or something like that, and the vehicles would be wrapped per team/marketing specs.
Many entry level pros will sell off stuff to help make a living. Energy bars, clothing, tires, whatever "wear" items they get, they'll sell. The director I spoke with said that he may receive 60-80 kits for each racer, but he'd dole them out a few here, a few there, a new kit for a "big" race, etc. If he gave them all in Feb, the racer would have sold 59 of the 60 and then in June would have looked like crap.
cdr
Equipment sponsors not only supply equipment but money and non-company related things (like vehicles, vehicle decal wraps, etc). For example, Felt may supply all the vehicles to Garmin while they're in the US, or something like that, and the vehicles would be wrapped per team/marketing specs.
Many entry level pros will sell off stuff to help make a living. Energy bars, clothing, tires, whatever "wear" items they get, they'll sell. The director I spoke with said that he may receive 60-80 kits for each racer, but he'd dole them out a few here, a few there, a new kit for a "big" race, etc. If he gave them all in Feb, the racer would have sold 59 of the 60 and then in June would have looked like crap.
cdr
05-11-09, 09:25 AM
#20
slow up hills
Join Date: Mar 2006
Location: Seattle, WA
Posts: 4,931
Bikes: Giant TCR, Redline CX, Ritchey Breakaway, Spec S-works epic
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 0 Times
in
0 Posts
05-11-09, 12:58 PM
#22
Senior Member
05-11-09, 01:10 PM
#23
slow up hills
Join Date: Mar 2006
Location: Seattle, WA
Posts: 4,931
Bikes: Giant TCR, Redline CX, Ritchey Breakaway, Spec S-works epic
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 0 Times
in
0 Posts
not related to domestique. In this case it really means doesn't race much (at all?) on an international level. I.e. not TdF, but they are in the tour of CA
05-11-09, 01:31 PM
#24
Senior Member
Okay, possibly you're being obtuse here. I'm in Canada, Jack and Harry are in the UK, and Monique is in France. Racing in the tour of CA (CA means Canada, but I've never heard of the "tour of CA"? what is it?) but not the TdF means not racing internationally.
I'm confused. Maybe I should just go home.
I'm confused. Maybe I should just go home.
05-11-09, 01:39 PM
#25
slowest!
Join Date: Oct 2008
Location: NW WA
Posts: 628
Bikes: Felt, Atala, Kona
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 0 Times
in
0 Posts
And yes, maybe you are and should.
Last edited by dsellinger; 05-11-09 at 01:43 PM.