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  1. #101
    Senior Member tuxbailey's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by blacksquid View Post
    Then go upstairs to Kotobuki.
    yeah, I need to try that place some times.

  2. #102
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    That deserves its own thread. Shimano shifted its production from South Korea to China.

  3. #103
    Senior Member DannoXYZ's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by NormanF View Post
    That's racism. Asian made goods today are no longer basement level junk. Just ask the Japanese.
    Yeah, good 'ol red-neck mid-western ignorance and racism. It takes at least a generation to recognize the shift in the economy and to go with the new economic models. Heck, just one generation ago, the Japanese were putting out crappy toys and copying U.S. car-designs. Now they have surpassed their mentor and are now the largest manufacturer of high-quality autos in the world. Spending $20k on a Japanese auto will get you a much, much higher-quality auto than an equivalent amount on a GM product. But don't tell that to the previous generation. Same with the OP's post, it'll be their kids that recognize the real nature of today's economy.

    Besides, the OP really shouldn't support a backwards economy that doesn't provide adequate vacation time, healthcare and education for their workers. They're being left behind by more progressive countries that'll leave them further and further behind with each passing generation. But he won't recognize any of that until it's time for him to check into a retirement home and find that there's none, and there wont' be any government funding for his care and his kids are nowhere to be found.
    Last edited by DannoXYZ; 08-17-09 at 01:29 PM.

  4. #104
    Banned. El Diablo Rojo's Avatar
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    Psimet2001 I get the OP's point, don't agree with it but I get it. To buy a Colnago for 5k that was made in Taiwan for pennies on the dollar seems to kind of like buying a Ferrari that was made by Kia. It's not that I have anything against Kia but I really want my Ferrari to be made in Modena. Some firms, like LOOK, are making their frames in Asia but own the plants and have French mangers...this helps in the heritage area. I guess some still want to think that their bikes are still being made by artisans in small shops and are labors of love. If that were true 5k for a frameset would seem like a deal.

  5. #105
    stole your bike roadiejorge's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by bicycletothesun View Post
    I'm not asking this question to start a fight.

    But I will add: I don't think it's right (now that is my subjective use of the word) for a company, say Bianchi, to charge $2500+ for their bicycles to find out it's made in Asia. I take pride in not only the quality of my bicycles but also the heritage. Bianchi for 95% of their current lineup are made in Taiwan. It is not Italian. Just like Cannondale will soon not be American.

    Does having a Bianchi made in Taiwan affect the quality? No.
    Does having a Bianchi made in Taiwan ruin its heritage? Yes.



    I love Co-Motion! They have some awesome touring bikes...



    You didn't blow my mind

    I wouldn't care if a Chinese worker built my bike as long as s/he was in the USA and I was buying an American bike.

    If I wanted a Taiwan bike I would find one of their local builders and get one. I do not expect historically American or European builders to ship their operation to Taiwan because of the cheaper labor. I won't buy from that company any further.

    To each his own of course but abstractions like "heritage" when it comes to a tool is lost on me since it adds nothing to the overall cycling experience. Tangible things like frame quality and design are more important to me than heritage, though I imagine someone who collects bikes might be concerned with that aspect. The quality of frames coming out of Taiwan is quite good, I don't think so many bike companies would outsource there if they stood any chance of damaging their brands. I'm curious about one thing though, if you're paying $5K for a bike is it more comforting to know that it was made in Europe/US versus Taiwan especially if the product quality is the same?
    Last edited by roadiejorge; 08-17-09 at 01:40 PM.
    I like pie

  6. #106
    Senior Member Ziemas's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by El Diablo Rojo View Post
    Psimet2001 I get the OP's point, don't agree with it but I get it. To buy a Colnago for 5k that was made in Taiwan for pennies on the dollar seems to kind of like buying a Ferrari that was made by Kia. It's not that I have anything against Kia but I really want my Ferrari to be made in Modena. Some firms, like LOOK, are making their frames in Asia but own the plants and have French mangers...this helps in the heritage area. I guess some still want to think that their bikes are still being made by artisans in small shops and are labors of love. If that were true 5k for a frameset would seem like a deal.
    It's well known that Taiwan produces some of the highest quality CF in the world. It'd surely trust it over Italian CF any day......BTW, what about Fiat? My favorite model was the Panda; you know, the one so cheap it didn't have door handles....

  7. #107
    Tandem Mountain Climber
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    Quote Originally Posted by bicycletothesun View Post

    I love Co-Motion! They have some awesome touring bikes...
    They have a pretty nice aluminum "racing" bike too... the Ristretto. It is even available with BB30.

    http://www.co-motion.com/single_bikes/ristretto.html


  8. #108
    made in italy bicycletothesun's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ziemas View Post
    It's well known that Taiwan produces some of the highest quality CF in the world. It'd surely trust it over Italian CF any day......BTW, what about Fiat? My favorite model was the Panda; you know, the one so cheap it didn't have door handles....
    Great! If I wanted a Taiwan CF bike I would buy one. I don't expect an ITALIAN frame to be made in Taiwan, however.

    It has nothing to do with racism or xenophobia.

    I recognize the quality coming from Asia.

    I have several Giants that I ride often and love dearly. BUT THEY ARE BASED IN ASIA. I would not buy a Giant if they started making frames in Italy, the USA, Germany, etc. My logic still applies.

    The fact remains: Taiwan/China is used to make bikes because of the cheap labor all the while the bikes from big names are still costing $3000+. I don't support that. My $3000 is better spent at a custom, local builder whose frame building operations occur in their original country --- whether that be USA, Italy, Germany, or Taiwan.
    Quote Originally Posted by Ratfish View Post
    If someone is going to be dropping thousands of dollars on anything, they should be able to be as specific about the origin of the product as they want.
    The List of bike builders who do not outsource their operations overseas. Support them!

  9. #109
    made in italy bicycletothesun's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by uspspro View Post
    They have a pretty nice aluminum "racing" bike too... the Ristretto. It is even available with BB30.

    http://www.co-motion.com/single_bikes/ristretto.html

    Do you ride a Co-Motion? I'm thinking about the Nor'Wester --- what a beautiful bike!

    (Oregon USA made too so worth every dollar).
    Quote Originally Posted by Ratfish View Post
    If someone is going to be dropping thousands of dollars on anything, they should be able to be as specific about the origin of the product as they want.
    The List of bike builders who do not outsource their operations overseas. Support them!

  10. #110
    Still can't climb
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    Quote Originally Posted by bicycletothesun View Post
    Great! If I wanted a Taiwan CF bike I would buy one. I don't expect an ITALIAN frame to be made in Taiwan, however.

    It has nothing to do with racism or xenophobia.

    I recognize the quality coming from Asia.

    I have several Giants that I ride often and love dearly. BUT THEY ARE BASED IN ASIA. I would not buy a Giant if they started making frames in Italy, the USA, Germany, etc. My logic still applies.

    The fact remains: Taiwan/China is used to make bikes because of the cheap labor all the while the bikes from big names are still costing $3000+. I don't support that. My $3000 is better spent at a custom, local builder whose frame building operations occur in their original country --- whether that be USA, Italy, Germany, or Taiwan.
    Well this makes a lot more sense. you don't have a problem with asian mass production bikes; you just don't like a usa/european mass production bikes labelled as usa/europe but actually from asia mascarading as a usa or european bike and priced at a premium for that. So a giant is ok but not colnago. right?
    coasting, few quotes are worthy of him, and of those, even fewer printable in a family forum......quote 3alarmer

  11. #111
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    Quote Originally Posted by reef58 View Post
    The guy asked a legitimate question, and you guys are acting like a bunch of 3 year olds. I will go out on a limb. I try not to buy anything made from China if I can help it. I don't obsess over it. I was looking at an entry level Specialized MTB, right on the frame made in China. No entry level Specialized for me.

    I try to support Americam manufacturers "if" I can. I bought a Makita miter saw it is made in Georgia. I understand the global economy, and how nothing is 100% USA made anymore, but I try. There is nothing wrong with that.

    Any wood workers here? Try and find a table saw made in the US. I did and could not. I ended up with a $2000 table saw made in China and the top was .020 from being flat. 20/1000 is a lot by the way. I went back to where I bought the saw and checked the display, and it had a top out of flat. How hard is it to make a flat cast iron deck. I don't think the Chinese have nailed that yet. The replacement top was also out of flat. Luckily I have machine shop experience.

    I choose not to go downhill at 30 plus MPH on a frame made with the same tech as the table saw. My choice. Don't care if you do.

    I could go on and on, but I look forward to the mocking.

    Richard
    Boy, I totally agree with you here. This is the same thought process when buying products nowadays.

    woodworking (as well as furniture design) has been gutted by really disgusting business practices by the Chinese. I see the same in the Chinese auto industry. This type of thing, I just cannot support with my dollars.

    So just like you, it doesn't rule my life but I definitely check and try to buy made in the USA and definitely pass on MIC. I don't need anything THAT bad that it bothers my conscience.

  12. #112
    Enthusiastic Goon dsx724's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by cruiserhead View Post
    Boy, I totally agree with you here. This is the same thought process when buying products nowadays.

    woodworking (as well as furniture design) has been gutted by really disgusting business practices by the Chinese. I see the same in the Chinese auto industry. This type of thing, I just cannot support with my dollars.

    So just like you, it doesn't rule my life but I definitely check and try to buy made in the USA and definitely pass on MIC. I don't need anything THAT bad that it bothers my conscience.
    You can't blame the Chinese for that. Blame the people behind IKEA and planned obsolescence. The upper management at IKEA order crap wood to be made into crap furniture and reap billions in profits while your furniture falls apart in a year. I only buy Ethan Allen not because of where its made, but the quality of the workmanship and durability. You can resell it after ten years instead of ending up in the dump.

  13. #113
    Senior Member Ratfish's Avatar
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    If someone is going to be dropping thousands of dollars on anything, they should be able to be as specific about the origin of the product as they want.

  14. #114
    Despite all my rage, I am rooftest's Avatar
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    High end Colnagos like mine are still made in Italy. Although, having been to Italy, I would almost trust Taiwanese manufacturers more.

  15. #115
    Senior Member neuronal's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by bicycletothesun View Post
    It has nothing to do with racism or xenophobia.
    Care to explain your motivations then? I mean, what possible reason could you have for hating the fact that Bianchi makes frames in Asia? It's not like they are hiding this fact, and it's not like the frames are of any lower quality. And you don't seem to have any economics or humanitarian-based motivations. So why does it matter to you WHERE a frame is made if you get the same frame? Note that answering "it just does" is the standard cover-up for racism. I know this is just your opinion and your opinion doesn't really matter, but the fact that you keep arguing for it deserves some scrutiny.

    This whole heritage argument is silly. Bianchi is an Italian company. Buying a Bianchi means you bought an Italian bike. We talk about having a German car or American bikes when it's obvious that not all parts where produced in Germany or the US, simply because the brand name slapped onto the product is a German or American company.

  16. #116
    I eat carbide. Psimet2001's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by rooftest View Post
    High end Colnagos like mine are still made in Italy. Although, having been to Italy, I would almost trust Taiwanese manufacturers more.
    You should. Taiwan is known to be some of the best in carbon fiber in the world.

  17. #117
    Senior Member robotkiller's Avatar
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    I do get what the OP is saying. If you are buying a high end Italian bike, you want something that comes from that tradition. Not something that was popped out of the Giant/Pacific/Whatever megafactory. Similarly, I would favor high end Japanese manufacturers that come from a tradition of racing and/or building excellence. There is something impersonal about outsourcing, where the instrument of manufacture is separate from the source of the design.

    The absolute quality of most Taiwanese frames are unimpeachable. I think the argument goes more towards the warm and fuzzies of owning an inhouse designed and built frame. This issue is also big in the high end watch industry.

  18. #118
    Senior Member neuronal's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by robotkiller View Post
    I do get what the OP is saying. If you are buying a high end Italian bike, you want something that comes from that tradition. Not something that was popped out of the Giant/Pacific/Whatever megafactory. Similarly, I would favor high end Japanese manufacturers that come from a tradition of racing and/or building excellence.
    Trust me, getting popped out of an Italian megafactory feels about the same as from an Asian megafactory.

    Quote Originally Posted by robotkiller View Post
    There is something impersonal about outsourcing, where the instrument of manufacture is separate from the source of the design.
    Impersonal? The inventor is different from the producer? Are you criticizing the industrial revolution?

  19. #119
    Super Moderator BillyD's Avatar
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    A generation (or two) ago Japan was indeed making a bunch of junk. The term "Made In Japan" was synonymous with junk. Over time they turned it around, and as you correctly stated they now make among the finest autos and electronics in the world. BillyD buys Sonys and Toyotas, period.

    But it took time. Currently neither Taiwan or China are anywhere near the level of Japan. In fact by all apearances China isn't even trying, they're just trying to unload as much junk on the world as they can possibly get away with.

    Lumping Japan into the same boat with China is the height of injustice. It's just wrong!
    Where else but the internet can a bunch of cyclists go and be the tough guy? - - jdon
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  20. #120
    Enthusiastic Goon dsx724's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by BillyD View Post
    A generation (or two) ago Japan was indeed making a bunch of junk. The term "Made In Japan" was synonymous with junk. Over time they turned it around, and as you correctly stated they now make among the finest autos and electronics in the world. BillyD buys Sonys and Toyotas, period.

    But it took time. Currently neither Taiwan or China are anywhere near the level of Japan. In fact by all apearances China isn't even trying, they're just trying to unload as much junk on the world as they can possibly get away with.

    Lumping Japan into the same boat with China is the height of injustice. It's just wrong!
    You don't like computers? How about all your phones? Anything with a PCB is almost guaranteed to be made in China. The problem is American companies and consumers penny pinching and expecting the same quality. Walmart hounds its suppliers for lower prices so cuts have to be made somewhere.

    http://www.theonion.com/content/node/31049

  21. #121
    Packfodding 3 caloso's Avatar
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    To answer the OP: my Bianchi 928 has a big sticker on the head tube that says Made In Italy. (Although, now that I think about it, why doesn't it say Fatto in Italia ????)

    And FWIW, it was built up in my American garage by my American self with components designed in America but made in Taiwan.
    Cyclists of the world, unite! You have nothing to lube but your chains!

  22. #122
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    Quote Originally Posted by dsx724 View Post
    You can't blame the Chinese for that. Blame the people behind IKEA and planned obsolescence. The upper management at IKEA order crap wood to be made into crap furniture and reap billions in profits while your furniture falls apart in a year. I only buy Ethan Allen not because of where its made, but the quality of the workmanship and durability. You can resell it after ten years instead of ending up in the dump.
    I wasn't clear but this is not what I was talking about.

    Chinese industry steals ideas and knocks off designs as a business model.

    Trade shows displaying the latest from worldwide makers and the Chinese would show up with empty booths. They would spend the week photographing and measuring everything and display knockoff prototypes at the end of the show.
    Legal yet unethical. Twisting the intent and integrity of community. These are the things I refuse to support with my dollars. That is just one small example of what MIC means to me.

    Sure it's a small thing but it makes me feel better to avoid MIC when possible.

    I think there is a lot of support for Chinese products here. I am not sure why it is SO strong or if it is in defense of purchasing so much of it in your household. But, I don't think there is anything wrong with that. The reality is people buy what they can afford and see things differently now than 20 years ago regarding purchases.
    I don't think a hardline either way is very realistic. But, I do feel that if possible, MIC should be avoided.

  23. #123
    Senior Member robotkiller's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by neuronal View Post
    Trust me, getting popped out of an Italian megafactory feels about the same as from an Asian megafactory.



    Impersonal? The inventor is different from the producer? Are you criticizing the industrial revolution?
    In-house manfacture vs. outsourced manufacture. For instance, Turner Bikes designs bike frames in America and has them built by a separate company (in America). For all intents and purposes, Turner Bikes is simply a design house, but not an in-house manufacturer of the bike from paper to frame. Alternatively, a company like Indy Fab will design a frame and build that frame in house. To me, it's a little more special to have a company both design and manufacture the frame. Obviously you don't feel the same way and that's your prerogative.

    Although the OP didn't make this distinction, for me, I see no real difference from a company like Turner that outsources it's designs to an American company for manufacture vs one that outsources to a foreign company. (Other than the desire to support American jobs, which is perfectly commendable, in my opinion)

  24. #124
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    Quote Originally Posted by neuronal View Post
    Trust me, getting popped out of an Italian megafactory feels about the same as from an Asian megafactory.
    Not only that, but that italian megafactory may be employing plenty of asian immigrant workers under special visas:

    http://articles.latimes.com/2008/feb...-madeinitaly20

    Just throwing it out there.


  25. #125
    Senior Member neuronal's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by robotkiller View Post
    In-house manfacture vs. outsourced manufacture. For instance, Turner Bikes
    Tiny custom bike producers are a different case altogether. I think most people are talking about the big ones, like Bianchi, Cannondale, etc.

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