Cycling and bicycle discussion forums. 
   Click here to join our community Log in to access your Control Panel  


Go Back   > >

Road Cycling It is by riding a bicycle that you learn the contours of a country best, since you have to sweat up the hills and coast down them. Thus you remember them as they actually are, while in a motor car only a high hill impresses you, and you have no such accurate remembrance of country you have driven through as you gain by riding a bicycle. -- Ernest Hemingway

User Tag List

Closed Thread
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread
Old 08-17-09, 12:22 PM   #101
tuxbailey
Senior Member
 
tuxbailey's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2009
Location: Columbia, MD
Bikes: 2005 Merlin Extralight - 2001 Jamis Ventura - 1990 Specialized Hard Rock (with original tires) - Burley D'Lite Double for my kid
Posts: 1,298
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Quote:
Originally Posted by blacksquid View Post
Then go upstairs to Kotobuki.
yeah, I need to try that place some times.
tuxbailey is offline  
Old 08-17-09, 12:26 PM   #102
NormanF
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Mar 2007
Bikes:
Posts: 5,370
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
That deserves its own thread. Shimano shifted its production from South Korea to China.
NormanF is offline  
Old 08-17-09, 01:24 PM   #103
DannoXYZ 
Senior Member
 
DannoXYZ's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2005
Location: Saratoga, CA
Bikes:
Posts: 11,600
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Quote:
Originally Posted by NormanF View Post
That's racism. Asian made goods today are no longer basement level junk. Just ask the Japanese.
Yeah, good 'ol red-neck mid-western ignorance and racism. It takes at least a generation to recognize the shift in the economy and to go with the new economic models. Heck, just one generation ago, the Japanese were putting out crappy toys and copying U.S. car-designs. Now they have surpassed their mentor and are now the largest manufacturer of high-quality autos in the world. Spending $20k on a Japanese auto will get you a much, much higher-quality auto than an equivalent amount on a GM product. But don't tell that to the previous generation. Same with the OP's post, it'll be their kids that recognize the real nature of today's economy.

Besides, the OP really shouldn't support a backwards economy that doesn't provide adequate vacation time, healthcare and education for their workers. They're being left behind by more progressive countries that'll leave them further and further behind with each passing generation. But he won't recognize any of that until it's time for him to check into a retirement home and find that there's none, and there wont' be any government funding for his care and his kids are nowhere to be found.

Last edited by DannoXYZ; 08-17-09 at 01:29 PM.
DannoXYZ is offline  
Old 08-17-09, 01:27 PM   #104
El Diablo Rojo
Banned.
 
El Diablo Rojo's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2006
Location: ATX, Ex So Cal
Bikes: Ridley Noah-Scott Addict-Orbea Ordu
Posts: 11,058
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Psimet2001 I get the OP's point, don't agree with it but I get it. To buy a Colnago for 5k that was made in Taiwan for pennies on the dollar seems to kind of like buying a Ferrari that was made by Kia. It's not that I have anything against Kia but I really want my Ferrari to be made in Modena. Some firms, like LOOK, are making their frames in Asia but own the plants and have French mangers...this helps in the heritage area. I guess some still want to think that their bikes are still being made by artisans in small shops and are labors of love. If that were true 5k for a frameset would seem like a deal.
El Diablo Rojo is offline  
Old 08-17-09, 01:32 PM   #105
roadiejorge 
stole your bike
 
roadiejorge's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2008
Location: North Bergen, NJ
Bikes: Orbea Orca, Ridley Compact
Posts: 6,891
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 82 Post(s)
Quote:
Originally Posted by bicycletothesun View Post
I'm not asking this question to start a fight.

But I will add: I don't think it's right (now that is my subjective use of the word) for a company, say Bianchi, to charge $2500+ for their bicycles to find out it's made in Asia. I take pride in not only the quality of my bicycles but also the heritage. Bianchi for 95% of their current lineup are made in Taiwan. It is not Italian. Just like Cannondale will soon not be American.

Does having a Bianchi made in Taiwan affect the quality? No.
Does having a Bianchi made in Taiwan ruin its heritage? Yes.



I love Co-Motion! They have some awesome touring bikes...



You didn't blow my mind

I wouldn't care if a Chinese worker built my bike as long as s/he was in the USA and I was buying an American bike.

If I wanted a Taiwan bike I would find one of their local builders and get one. I do not expect historically American or European builders to ship their operation to Taiwan because of the cheaper labor. I won't buy from that company any further.

To each his own of course but abstractions like "heritage" when it comes to a tool is lost on me since it adds nothing to the overall cycling experience. Tangible things like frame quality and design are more important to me than heritage, though I imagine someone who collects bikes might be concerned with that aspect. The quality of frames coming out of Taiwan is quite good, I don't think so many bike companies would outsource there if they stood any chance of damaging their brands. I'm curious about one thing though, if you're paying $5K for a bike is it more comforting to know that it was made in Europe/US versus Taiwan especially if the product quality is the same?
__________________
I like pie

Last edited by roadiejorge; 08-17-09 at 01:40 PM.
roadiejorge is offline  
Old 08-17-09, 01:40 PM   #106
Ziemas
Senior Member
 
Ziemas's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2004
Location: Riga, Latvia
Bikes:
Posts: 10,082
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Quote:
Originally Posted by El Diablo Rojo View Post
Psimet2001 I get the OP's point, don't agree with it but I get it. To buy a Colnago for 5k that was made in Taiwan for pennies on the dollar seems to kind of like buying a Ferrari that was made by Kia. It's not that I have anything against Kia but I really want my Ferrari to be made in Modena. Some firms, like LOOK, are making their frames in Asia but own the plants and have French mangers...this helps in the heritage area. I guess some still want to think that their bikes are still being made by artisans in small shops and are labors of love. If that were true 5k for a frameset would seem like a deal.
It's well known that Taiwan produces some of the highest quality CF in the world. It'd surely trust it over Italian CF any day......BTW, what about Fiat? My favorite model was the Panda; you know, the one so cheap it didn't have door handles....
Ziemas is offline  
Old 08-17-09, 01:46 PM   #107
uspspro
Tandem Mountain Climber
 
Join Date: Mar 2007
Location: San Mateo, CA
Bikes: Calfee Tandem, Custom CAAD9 BB30, 90 Santana Arriva Tandem, 02 CAAD4 errand bike, 87 Cannondale "Black Lightning"
Posts: 4,101
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Quote:
Originally Posted by bicycletothesun View Post

I love Co-Motion! They have some awesome touring bikes...
They have a pretty nice aluminum "racing" bike too... the Ristretto. It is even available with BB30.

http://www.co-motion.com/single_bikes/ristretto.html

uspspro is offline  
Old 08-17-09, 01:50 PM   #108
bicycletothesun
made in italy
Thread Starter
 
bicycletothesun's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2009
Location: the world
Bikes: Bianchi, bianchi
Posts: 151
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ziemas View Post
It's well known that Taiwan produces some of the highest quality CF in the world. It'd surely trust it over Italian CF any day......BTW, what about Fiat? My favorite model was the Panda; you know, the one so cheap it didn't have door handles....
Great! If I wanted a Taiwan CF bike I would buy one. I don't expect an ITALIAN frame to be made in Taiwan, however.

It has nothing to do with racism or xenophobia.

I recognize the quality coming from Asia.

I have several Giants that I ride often and love dearly. BUT THEY ARE BASED IN ASIA. I would not buy a Giant if they started making frames in Italy, the USA, Germany, etc. My logic still applies.

The fact remains: Taiwan/China is used to make bikes because of the cheap labor all the while the bikes from big names are still costing $3000+. I don't support that. My $3000 is better spent at a custom, local builder whose frame building operations occur in their original country --- whether that be USA, Italy, Germany, or Taiwan.
bicycletothesun is offline  
Old 08-17-09, 01:54 PM   #109
bicycletothesun
made in italy
Thread Starter
 
bicycletothesun's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2009
Location: the world
Bikes: Bianchi, bianchi
Posts: 151
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Quote:
Originally Posted by uspspro View Post
They have a pretty nice aluminum "racing" bike too... the Ristretto. It is even available with BB30.

http://www.co-motion.com/single_bikes/ristretto.html

Do you ride a Co-Motion? I'm thinking about the Nor'Wester --- what a beautiful bike!

(Oregon USA made too so worth every dollar).
bicycletothesun is offline  
Old 08-17-09, 02:02 PM   #110
coasting 
Still can't climb
 
Join Date: Sep 2006
Location: Limey in Taiwan
Bikes:
Posts: 22,645
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Quote:
Originally Posted by bicycletothesun View Post
Great! If I wanted a Taiwan CF bike I would buy one. I don't expect an ITALIAN frame to be made in Taiwan, however.

It has nothing to do with racism or xenophobia.

I recognize the quality coming from Asia.

I have several Giants that I ride often and love dearly. BUT THEY ARE BASED IN ASIA. I would not buy a Giant if they started making frames in Italy, the USA, Germany, etc. My logic still applies.

The fact remains: Taiwan/China is used to make bikes because of the cheap labor all the while the bikes from big names are still costing $3000+. I don't support that. My $3000 is better spent at a custom, local builder whose frame building operations occur in their original country --- whether that be USA, Italy, Germany, or Taiwan.
Well this makes a lot more sense. you don't have a problem with asian mass production bikes; you just don't like a usa/european mass production bikes labelled as usa/europe but actually from asia mascarading as a usa or european bike and priced at a premium for that. So a giant is ok but not colnago. right?
__________________
coasting, few quotes are worthy of him, and of those, even fewer printable in a family forum......quote 3alarmer

No @coasting, you should stay 100% as you are right now, don't change a thing....quote Heathpack
coasting is offline  
Old 08-17-09, 02:18 PM   #111
cruiserhead
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Dec 2007
Bikes:
Posts: 1,866
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Quote:
Originally Posted by reef58 View Post
The guy asked a legitimate question, and you guys are acting like a bunch of 3 year olds. I will go out on a limb. I try not to buy anything made from China if I can help it. I don't obsess over it. I was looking at an entry level Specialized MTB, right on the frame made in China. No entry level Specialized for me.

I try to support Americam manufacturers "if" I can. I bought a Makita miter saw it is made in Georgia. I understand the global economy, and how nothing is 100% USA made anymore, but I try. There is nothing wrong with that.

Any wood workers here? Try and find a table saw made in the US. I did and could not. I ended up with a $2000 table saw made in China and the top was .020 from being flat. 20/1000 is a lot by the way. I went back to where I bought the saw and checked the display, and it had a top out of flat. How hard is it to make a flat cast iron deck. I don't think the Chinese have nailed that yet. The replacement top was also out of flat. Luckily I have machine shop experience.

I choose not to go downhill at 30 plus MPH on a frame made with the same tech as the table saw. My choice. Don't care if you do.

I could go on and on, but I look forward to the mocking.

Richard
Boy, I totally agree with you here. This is the same thought process when buying products nowadays.

woodworking (as well as furniture design) has been gutted by really disgusting business practices by the Chinese. I see the same in the Chinese auto industry. This type of thing, I just cannot support with my dollars.

So just like you, it doesn't rule my life but I definitely check and try to buy made in the USA and definitely pass on MIC. I don't need anything THAT bad that it bothers my conscience.
cruiserhead is offline  
Old 08-17-09, 02:28 PM   #112
dsx724
Enthusiastic Goon
 
dsx724's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2009
Location: Philly
Bikes: Rolling on dubz
Posts: 23
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Quote:
Originally Posted by cruiserhead View Post
Boy, I totally agree with you here. This is the same thought process when buying products nowadays.

woodworking (as well as furniture design) has been gutted by really disgusting business practices by the Chinese. I see the same in the Chinese auto industry. This type of thing, I just cannot support with my dollars.

So just like you, it doesn't rule my life but I definitely check and try to buy made in the USA and definitely pass on MIC. I don't need anything THAT bad that it bothers my conscience.
You can't blame the Chinese for that. Blame the people behind IKEA and planned obsolescence. The upper management at IKEA order crap wood to be made into crap furniture and reap billions in profits while your furniture falls apart in a year. I only buy Ethan Allen not because of where its made, but the quality of the workmanship and durability. You can resell it after ten years instead of ending up in the dump.
dsx724 is offline  
Old 08-17-09, 02:42 PM   #113
Ratfish
Senior Member
 
Ratfish's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2007
Location: Mle Island
Bikes:
Posts: 1,016
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
If someone is going to be dropping thousands of dollars on anything, they should be able to be as specific about the origin of the product as they want.
Ratfish is offline  
Old 08-17-09, 02:44 PM   #114
rooftest
Despite all my rage, I am
 
rooftest's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2007
Location: Los Angeles, CA
Bikes: LeMond Zurich, Colnago C-50
Posts: 2,613
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
High end Colnagos like mine are still made in Italy. Although, having been to Italy, I would almost trust Taiwanese manufacturers more.
rooftest is offline  
Old 08-17-09, 03:06 PM   #115
neuronal
Senior Member
 
neuronal's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2008
Location: Boston, MA
Bikes: Many
Posts: 324
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Quote:
Originally Posted by bicycletothesun View Post
It has nothing to do with racism or xenophobia.
Care to explain your motivations then? I mean, what possible reason could you have for hating the fact that Bianchi makes frames in Asia? It's not like they are hiding this fact, and it's not like the frames are of any lower quality. And you don't seem to have any economics or humanitarian-based motivations. So why does it matter to you WHERE a frame is made if you get the same frame? Note that answering "it just does" is the standard cover-up for racism. I know this is just your opinion and your opinion doesn't really matter, but the fact that you keep arguing for it deserves some scrutiny.

This whole heritage argument is silly. Bianchi is an Italian company. Buying a Bianchi means you bought an Italian bike. We talk about having a German car or American bikes when it's obvious that not all parts where produced in Germany or the US, simply because the brand name slapped onto the product is a German or American company.
neuronal is offline  
Old 08-17-09, 03:06 PM   #116
Psimet2001 
I eat carbide.
 
Psimet2001's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2006
Location: Elgin, IL
Bikes: Lots. Van Dessel and Squid Dealer
Posts: 19,703
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Quote:
Originally Posted by rooftest View Post
High end Colnagos like mine are still made in Italy. Although, having been to Italy, I would almost trust Taiwanese manufacturers more.
You should. Taiwan is known to be some of the best in carbon fiber in the world.
Psimet2001 is offline  
Old 08-17-09, 03:08 PM   #117
robotkiller
Senior Member
 
robotkiller's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2008
Bikes: Cannondale Capo and Rize
Posts: 441
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
I do get what the OP is saying. If you are buying a high end Italian bike, you want something that comes from that tradition. Not something that was popped out of the Giant/Pacific/Whatever megafactory. Similarly, I would favor high end Japanese manufacturers that come from a tradition of racing and/or building excellence. There is something impersonal about outsourcing, where the instrument of manufacture is separate from the source of the design.

The absolute quality of most Taiwanese frames are unimpeachable. I think the argument goes more towards the warm and fuzzies of owning an inhouse designed and built frame. This issue is also big in the high end watch industry.
robotkiller is offline  
Old 08-17-09, 03:15 PM   #118
neuronal
Senior Member
 
neuronal's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2008
Location: Boston, MA
Bikes: Many
Posts: 324
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Quote:
Originally Posted by robotkiller View Post
I do get what the OP is saying. If you are buying a high end Italian bike, you want something that comes from that tradition. Not something that was popped out of the Giant/Pacific/Whatever megafactory. Similarly, I would favor high end Japanese manufacturers that come from a tradition of racing and/or building excellence.
Trust me, getting popped out of an Italian megafactory feels about the same as from an Asian megafactory.

Quote:
Originally Posted by robotkiller View Post
There is something impersonal about outsourcing, where the instrument of manufacture is separate from the source of the design.
Impersonal? The inventor is different from the producer? Are you criticizing the industrial revolution?
neuronal is offline  
Old 08-17-09, 03:17 PM   #119
BillyD
Super Moderator
 
BillyD's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2005
Location: Hudson Valley, NY
Bikes: Merlin Cyrene '04; Bridgestone RB-1 '92
Posts: 17,318
Mentioned: 5 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 173 Post(s)
A generation (or two) ago Japan was indeed making a bunch of junk. The term "Made In Japan" was synonymous with junk. Over time they turned it around, and as you correctly stated they now make among the finest autos and electronics in the world. BillyD buys Sonys and Toyotas, period.

But it took time. Currently neither Taiwan or China are anywhere near the level of Japan. In fact by all apearances China isn't even trying, they're just trying to unload as much junk on the world as they can possibly get away with.

Lumping Japan into the same boat with China is the height of injustice. It's just wrong!
__________________
See, this is why we can't have nice things. - - smarkinson
Where else but the internet can a bunch of cyclists go and be the tough guy? - - jdon
Titanium and Steel Divisions
BillyD is offline  
Old 08-17-09, 03:22 PM   #120
dsx724
Enthusiastic Goon
 
dsx724's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2009
Location: Philly
Bikes: Rolling on dubz
Posts: 23
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Quote:
Originally Posted by BillyD View Post
A generation (or two) ago Japan was indeed making a bunch of junk. The term "Made In Japan" was synonymous with junk. Over time they turned it around, and as you correctly stated they now make among the finest autos and electronics in the world. BillyD buys Sonys and Toyotas, period.

But it took time. Currently neither Taiwan or China are anywhere near the level of Japan. In fact by all apearances China isn't even trying, they're just trying to unload as much junk on the world as they can possibly get away with.

Lumping Japan into the same boat with China is the height of injustice. It's just wrong!
You don't like computers? How about all your phones? Anything with a PCB is almost guaranteed to be made in China. The problem is American companies and consumers penny pinching and expecting the same quality. Walmart hounds its suppliers for lower prices so cuts have to be made somewhere.

http://www.theonion.com/content/node/31049
dsx724 is offline  
Old 08-17-09, 03:23 PM   #121
caloso
Packfodding 3
 
caloso's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2002
Location: Sacramento, California, USA
Bikes: Ridley Excalibur, Gazelle Champion Mondial, On-One Pompino, Specialized Rock Hopper
Posts: 33,614
Mentioned: 2 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 54 Post(s)
To answer the OP: my Bianchi 928 has a big sticker on the head tube that says Made In Italy. (Although, now that I think about it, why doesn't it say Fatto in Italia ????)

And FWIW, it was built up in my American garage by my American self with components designed in America but made in Taiwan.
caloso is offline  
Old 08-17-09, 03:24 PM   #122
cruiserhead
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Dec 2007
Bikes:
Posts: 1,866
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Quote:
Originally Posted by dsx724 View Post
You can't blame the Chinese for that. Blame the people behind IKEA and planned obsolescence. The upper management at IKEA order crap wood to be made into crap furniture and reap billions in profits while your furniture falls apart in a year. I only buy Ethan Allen not because of where its made, but the quality of the workmanship and durability. You can resell it after ten years instead of ending up in the dump.
I wasn't clear but this is not what I was talking about.

Chinese industry steals ideas and knocks off designs as a business model.

Trade shows displaying the latest from worldwide makers and the Chinese would show up with empty booths. They would spend the week photographing and measuring everything and display knockoff prototypes at the end of the show.
Legal yet unethical. Twisting the intent and integrity of community. These are the things I refuse to support with my dollars. That is just one small example of what MIC means to me.

Sure it's a small thing but it makes me feel better to avoid MIC when possible.

I think there is a lot of support for Chinese products here. I am not sure why it is SO strong or if it is in defense of purchasing so much of it in your household. But, I don't think there is anything wrong with that. The reality is people buy what they can afford and see things differently now than 20 years ago regarding purchases.
I don't think a hardline either way is very realistic. But, I do feel that if possible, MIC should be avoided.
cruiserhead is offline  
Old 08-17-09, 03:25 PM   #123
robotkiller
Senior Member
 
robotkiller's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2008
Bikes: Cannondale Capo and Rize
Posts: 441
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Quote:
Originally Posted by neuronal View Post
Trust me, getting popped out of an Italian megafactory feels about the same as from an Asian megafactory.



Impersonal? The inventor is different from the producer? Are you criticizing the industrial revolution?
In-house manfacture vs. outsourced manufacture. For instance, Turner Bikes designs bike frames in America and has them built by a separate company (in America). For all intents and purposes, Turner Bikes is simply a design house, but not an in-house manufacturer of the bike from paper to frame. Alternatively, a company like Indy Fab will design a frame and build that frame in house. To me, it's a little more special to have a company both design and manufacture the frame. Obviously you don't feel the same way and that's your prerogative.

Although the OP didn't make this distinction, for me, I see no real difference from a company like Turner that outsources it's designs to an American company for manufacture vs one that outsources to a foreign company. (Other than the desire to support American jobs, which is perfectly commendable, in my opinion)
robotkiller is offline  
Old 08-17-09, 03:25 PM   #124
jeebusaurousrex
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Jan 2008
Location: Brooklyn
Bikes: Schwinns
Posts: 851
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Quote:
Originally Posted by neuronal View Post
Trust me, getting popped out of an Italian megafactory feels about the same as from an Asian megafactory.
Not only that, but that italian megafactory may be employing plenty of asian immigrant workers under special visas:

http://articles.latimes.com/2008/feb...-madeinitaly20

Just throwing it out there.

jeebusaurousrex is offline  
Old 08-17-09, 03:31 PM   #125
neuronal
Senior Member
 
neuronal's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2008
Location: Boston, MA
Bikes: Many
Posts: 324
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Quote:
Originally Posted by robotkiller View Post
In-house manfacture vs. outsourced manufacture. For instance, Turner Bikes
Tiny custom bike producers are a different case altogether. I think most people are talking about the big ones, like Bianchi, Cannondale, etc.
neuronal is offline  
Closed Thread


Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off



All times are GMT -6. The time now is 04:03 PM.