Deep Dish Carbons....Let's be honest
11-04-09, 04:19 PM
#281
Bromptoneer
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11-04-09, 05:09 PM
#283
Cardiac Case
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Patentcad is 52.
I'm 39.
And he can still kick my arse.
As well as everybody else on here.
But that don't mean I won't get deep-v-carbons.
I dig 'em.
I can afford 'em.
End of story.
I'm 39.
And he can still kick my arse.
As well as everybody else on here.
But that don't mean I won't get deep-v-carbons.
I dig 'em.
I can afford 'em.
End of story.
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11-04-09, 06:18 PM
#284
Raising the Abyss
Ok kids here is unbiased empirical evidence.
https://a10.idata.over-blog.com/0/02/...ro_english.jpg
https://a10.idata.over-blog.com/0/02/...ro_english.jpg
I suppose, to save $$$, you could buy a set of heavy, but aero wheels for flat races/ TTs and a set of very light (and not necessarily very aero) wheels for hilly races. That sounds kind of like a PIA to me, so if you can afford them, why not go with aero and carbon?
*edit* -- though I'd like to see that same test done at a much more pedestrian TT pace of perhaps ~40kph instead of 50kph
Looking at published results of wheel aerodynamics tests (like the one Zen Cyclery posted a link to), the difference in "absorbed" power between a very non-aero wheel like Mavic R-SYS and a very aero wheel like Zipp 808 is approximately 18 Watts at 50 km/h (31.25 mph). Using a relationship to estimate speed given power, the difference in speed is less than 0.5 mile per hour in favor of the aero wheel, on flat ground and all else (rider+bike weight, tires/pressures etc.) being equal.
This may not mean much to casual riders, but it is a huge difference for those that compete in a solo riding (TT, breakaway) situation.
This may not mean much to casual riders, but it is a huge difference for those that compete in a solo riding (TT, breakaway) situation.
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Last edited by celticfrost; 11-04-09 at 06:24 PM.
11-04-09, 07:45 PM
#285
grilled cheesus
i could totally rock some Lous Deep Dish and Psi Carbon Wheels right now. so, farking totally rocking it. later.
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11-04-09, 09:03 PM
#286
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Not brifter. Not Pcad. Not botto. Keep trying.
11-04-09, 09:48 PM
#287
Aluminium Crusader :-)
As others have said, the benefits are often way overstated, and 'unfair' comparisons are used to make points about the 'aeroness' of deep rims.
For an example of an unrealistic comparison, I hardly know anyone who rides "36-spoke, box rims" anymore (or anything with 36 spokes, for that matter), and I think I know about 2 people who ride 808s, and they're triathletes. A more reaslictic comparison is something like 404s or Cosmics with something like Easton Vistas or Eurus. I'm obviously not saying no one rides 36-spoke wheels anymore, but the huge majority don't, especially when racing. Most of the people I see racing non-carbon rims use stuff like Campag, Kysiriums or Dura-Ace.
I'm such a geek I typed this list out in order of drag a while ago, just to impress my friends
As we can see, the differences between some of the very expensive wheels and the cheaper wheels isn't so great, and (as others have also said) this is at 50km/h!! Note that Boras, etc, come in at around the 23w mark, while many of the cheaper wheels are around the 26 to 28w mark. Also, these figures are for one wheel -- which is essentially the front -- and the rear only cuts roughly half the drag. Therefore, if a wheel near the top of the table is 8w less 'draggy' than one near the bottom, the total aero benefit is ~12w.
For a for more realistic example: if someone riding 2007 Sciroccos switches to 404s, they're cutting about 11w of drag at 50km/h! Eleven watts is something, but it ain't much. Most on line "riding forces" calculators will tell us that cutting 11w doesn't gain much speed. This calculator says that going from 400w to 411w with a 12kph tailwind results in a speed increase of 0.42km/h, or, 0.26mph.
https://bikecalculator.com/veloMetricNum.html
Drag at 50 kph
https://www.rouesartisanales.over-blo...-15505311.html
.....................................................drag (w).......rim depth (mm)......spokes
Zipp 808 2007.....................................16.7............82...................18
Xentis MK 1 TT 2007............................17.1............58....................4
Citec 6000 Cx 2007.............................19.2............49..................12
Ritchey WCS Carbon 2005...................19.3............58..................16
HED 3 2006..........................................19.7............54...................3
Zipp 404 2007......................................19.9............58..................18
Sonic Super 50mm 2007.......................20.4............50..................20
Vuelta Carbon Pro WR 2006.................20.8............58..................12
Corima Aero 2007.................................21.0............45..................18
Easton Tempest II 2005.......................21.6............58..................18
CKT Splendor 2005...............................21.7............45..................16
Mavic Cosmic Carbone SL ....................21.9............52..................16
Lightweight Standard G3 2007.............22.2............53..................16
Shimano WH7801 Carbon 50 2006.......22.9............50..................16
Mavic Cosmic Carbone Ultimate ...........22.9............40..................20
Campagnolo Bora 2005........................23.0............50...................18
Rose Aerospoke 2006...........................23.0............53....................4
Corima Turbospoke 2006......................23.1............38....................3
Shimano WH7850 C50 2007.................23.2............50...................16
Bontrager Race light Carbon 2005........23.4............43...................16
Lew Racing Pro VT-1 2007....................23.4............46...................16
Shimano WH7850 C24 2007.................23.5............28...................16
Corima Tune 20 Aerolite 2007...............23.7............45...................20
Fulcrum Racing Speed 2006..................23.7............50....................18
Specialized Royal Rapid Star 2007.........23.8............32....................20
Gipiemme Carbon 5.5 2005...................24.1............55....................20
Tune Olympic Gold 2005........................24.1............45....................16
Shimano WH7801 Carbon 2006.............24.4............29...................16
FRM FL-R 23 SD 2006.............................24.6............37...................20
Lightweight Standard G3 2007..............24.6............53...................20
Lightweight Obermayer G1 2005...........24.8............53..................20
American Classic 420 2007....................24.9............34...................18
Ritchey Pro 2007...................................24.9............27...................20
Xentis Mark 1 2005 ..............................25.0............42.....................4
Speedcomposites Sinus 2007...............25.2............26....................24
Citec 3000s Aero 2005..........................25.5............30...................12
Shimano R550 2007..............................25.9............24...................20
Shimano R560 2006..............................26.1............24....................16
Shimano R561 2007..............................26.2............24....................16
Campagnolo Scirocco 2007....................27.3............24....................20
Lightweight Ventoux 2006.....................27.3............28....................20
Fulcrum Racing 5 Evolution 2007............27.6............24....................20
Campagnolo Eurus 2006........................27.8............24...................16
Tune Skyline KOM 2006..........................28.1............24.....................20
Mavic Aksium 2008.................................28.3............22....................20
Xtreme Light Wheels 2007.....................28.6............31.....................24
FSA RD-600 2006...................................28.7............30....................18
Easton Vista SL 2007.............................30.0............30.....................20
Mavic Aksium Race 2006.........................30.0............21.....................20
Mavic Ksyrium Equipe 2007.....................30.0............23.....................20
Citec 3000s Aero 16-spoke.....................30.6............24.....................16
Mavic Aksium Race 2007.........................31.1............21...................20
Ambrosio X-Carbo 2005..........................31.5............46...................28
Campagnolo Vento 2007.........................31.5............24...................24
A-Class ALX 440 SL 2007.........................31.9............23...................20
Campagnolo Hyperon 2006......................32.1............19...................22
Fulcrum Racing 7 2007..............................32.8............24...................20
Mavic Ksyrium ES 2006.............................33.2............21...................18
Mavic R-SYS 2007.....................................35.0............22.................16
For an example of an unrealistic comparison, I hardly know anyone who rides "36-spoke, box rims" anymore (or anything with 36 spokes, for that matter), and I think I know about 2 people who ride 808s, and they're triathletes. A more reaslictic comparison is something like 404s or Cosmics with something like Easton Vistas or Eurus. I'm obviously not saying no one rides 36-spoke wheels anymore, but the huge majority don't, especially when racing. Most of the people I see racing non-carbon rims use stuff like Campag, Kysiriums or Dura-Ace.
I'm such a geek I typed this list out in order of drag a while ago, just to impress my friends
As we can see, the differences between some of the very expensive wheels and the cheaper wheels isn't so great, and (as others have also said) this is at 50km/h!! Note that Boras, etc, come in at around the 23w mark, while many of the cheaper wheels are around the 26 to 28w mark. Also, these figures are for one wheel -- which is essentially the front -- and the rear only cuts roughly half the drag. Therefore, if a wheel near the top of the table is 8w less 'draggy' than one near the bottom, the total aero benefit is ~12w.
For a for more realistic example: if someone riding 2007 Sciroccos switches to 404s, they're cutting about 11w of drag at 50km/h! Eleven watts is something, but it ain't much. Most on line "riding forces" calculators will tell us that cutting 11w doesn't gain much speed. This calculator says that going from 400w to 411w with a 12kph tailwind results in a speed increase of 0.42km/h, or, 0.26mph.
https://bikecalculator.com/veloMetricNum.html
Drag at 50 kph
https://www.rouesartisanales.over-blo...-15505311.html
.....................................................drag (w).......rim depth (mm)......spokes
Zipp 808 2007.....................................16.7............82...................18
Xentis MK 1 TT 2007............................17.1............58....................4
Citec 6000 Cx 2007.............................19.2............49..................12
Ritchey WCS Carbon 2005...................19.3............58..................16
HED 3 2006..........................................19.7............54...................3
Zipp 404 2007......................................19.9............58..................18
Sonic Super 50mm 2007.......................20.4............50..................20
Vuelta Carbon Pro WR 2006.................20.8............58..................12
Corima Aero 2007.................................21.0............45..................18
Easton Tempest II 2005.......................21.6............58..................18
CKT Splendor 2005...............................21.7............45..................16
Mavic Cosmic Carbone SL ....................21.9............52..................16
Lightweight Standard G3 2007.............22.2............53..................16
Shimano WH7801 Carbon 50 2006.......22.9............50..................16
Mavic Cosmic Carbone Ultimate ...........22.9............40..................20
Campagnolo Bora 2005........................23.0............50...................18
Rose Aerospoke 2006...........................23.0............53....................4
Corima Turbospoke 2006......................23.1............38....................3
Shimano WH7850 C50 2007.................23.2............50...................16
Bontrager Race light Carbon 2005........23.4............43...................16
Lew Racing Pro VT-1 2007....................23.4............46...................16
Shimano WH7850 C24 2007.................23.5............28...................16
Corima Tune 20 Aerolite 2007...............23.7............45...................20
Fulcrum Racing Speed 2006..................23.7............50....................18
Specialized Royal Rapid Star 2007.........23.8............32....................20
Gipiemme Carbon 5.5 2005...................24.1............55....................20
Tune Olympic Gold 2005........................24.1............45....................16
Shimano WH7801 Carbon 2006.............24.4............29...................16
FRM FL-R 23 SD 2006.............................24.6............37...................20
Lightweight Standard G3 2007..............24.6............53...................20
Lightweight Obermayer G1 2005...........24.8............53..................20
American Classic 420 2007....................24.9............34...................18
Ritchey Pro 2007...................................24.9............27...................20
Xentis Mark 1 2005 ..............................25.0............42.....................4
Speedcomposites Sinus 2007...............25.2............26....................24
Citec 3000s Aero 2005..........................25.5............30...................12
Shimano R550 2007..............................25.9............24...................20
Shimano R560 2006..............................26.1............24....................16
Shimano R561 2007..............................26.2............24....................16
Campagnolo Scirocco 2007....................27.3............24....................20
Lightweight Ventoux 2006.....................27.3............28....................20
Fulcrum Racing 5 Evolution 2007............27.6............24....................20
Campagnolo Eurus 2006........................27.8............24...................16
Tune Skyline KOM 2006..........................28.1............24.....................20
Mavic Aksium 2008.................................28.3............22....................20
Xtreme Light Wheels 2007.....................28.6............31.....................24
FSA RD-600 2006...................................28.7............30....................18
Easton Vista SL 2007.............................30.0............30.....................20
Mavic Aksium Race 2006.........................30.0............21.....................20
Mavic Ksyrium Equipe 2007.....................30.0............23.....................20
Citec 3000s Aero 16-spoke.....................30.6............24.....................16
Mavic Aksium Race 2007.........................31.1............21...................20
Ambrosio X-Carbo 2005..........................31.5............46...................28
Campagnolo Vento 2007.........................31.5............24...................24
A-Class ALX 440 SL 2007.........................31.9............23...................20
Campagnolo Hyperon 2006......................32.1............19...................22
Fulcrum Racing 7 2007..............................32.8............24...................20
Mavic Ksyrium ES 2006.............................33.2............21...................18
Mavic R-SYS 2007.....................................35.0............22.................16
Last edited by 531Aussie; 11-04-09 at 09:53 PM.
11-04-09, 10:29 PM
#289
Aluminium Crusader :-)
Oh yeah, to answer the thread starter's question, my deep, carbon wheels (Flashpoint FP60s and Token C50As) feel slower than my 32-spoke, DT RR1.2s (30mm deep), mainly coz they seem to flex more, and have a certain 'deadness' about them. I gave my Flashpoints away, and I rarely ride my Tokens. Honestly, how the hell can anyone tell that their deep wheels are rolling 0.5km/h faster than their 'regular' wheels.
Total honesty is something that can go missing when people get asked about something they've spent a lot of money on, because they feel as though they'll look like an idiot if they say something is crap after they've spent big money. They usually say stuff like: "yeah, these 404 cost me $2000, but they've worth every buck, coz they're noticeably heaps faster, stiff as anything, handle great in all situations, and are nuke proof -- I've ridden through many 3ft-deep potholes at 50mph and didn't even notice! In other words, I'm so smart and great to have made such an investment."
I'll be honest: I hate my deep carbon rims -- and the others I've ridden -- because they're flexy and handle like complete crap in windy conditions.
Anyone who says that deep rims (say, anything 50mm or deeper) don't handle poorly in strong winds is either full of crap or doesn't know what wind is!
The harsh truth about deep carbon rims is: they handle crap in strong winds, they make stuff-all speed difference, they're much more likely to break, and carbon braking surfaces are greatly inferior to aluminium.
Total honesty is something that can go missing when people get asked about something they've spent a lot of money on, because they feel as though they'll look like an idiot if they say something is crap after they've spent big money. They usually say stuff like: "yeah, these 404 cost me $2000, but they've worth every buck, coz they're noticeably heaps faster, stiff as anything, handle great in all situations, and are nuke proof -- I've ridden through many 3ft-deep potholes at 50mph and didn't even notice! In other words, I'm so smart and great to have made such an investment."
I'll be honest: I hate my deep carbon rims -- and the others I've ridden -- because they're flexy and handle like complete crap in windy conditions.
Anyone who says that deep rims (say, anything 50mm or deeper) don't handle poorly in strong winds is either full of crap or doesn't know what wind is! The harsh truth about deep carbon rims is: they handle crap in strong winds, they make stuff-all speed difference, they're much more likely to break, and carbon braking surfaces are greatly inferior to aluminium.
Last edited by 531Aussie; 11-04-09 at 10:38 PM.
11-04-09, 10:37 PM
#290
Peloton Shelter Dog
I have three sets of such wheels, I switch between them and alu rims all the time, my impressions are completely the opposite. I have Zipp 404s and Williams 38's and really like them.
11-04-09, 10:46 PM
#291
Aluminium Crusader :-)
Well then, to quote me:
And to go tit-for-tat: I have two sets of deep rims and have found the complete opposite to you! So there! And I'm a freakin 86kg ball of muscle who can hold a set of bars as firmly as anyone.
To suggest that at 60mm rim with bladed spokes handles just as well as a much shallower rim in strong winds doesn't make sense, because deep rims are like a sail!
A few riders in the two pro races here this year (the Tour Down Under and the Herald-Sun Tour) blamed some crashes on the fact the deep rims were used in very strong crosswinds .
To suggest that at 60mm rim with bladed spokes handles just as well as a much shallower rim in strong winds doesn't make sense, because deep rims are like a sail!
A few riders in the two pro races here this year (the Tour Down Under and the Herald-Sun Tour) blamed some crashes on the fact the deep rims were used in very strong crosswinds .
Last edited by 531Aussie; 11-04-09 at 10:50 PM.
11-04-09, 10:53 PM
#292
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I have a set of wheels made from dt aerolites on one wheel and sapim cx rays on the other, both with the same rims as the tokens (as well as many brands) I find them stiff enough and I am riding these on the track with low spoke count and my weight of 225 pounds (or just over 100kg for us normal folks). I can move the wheel side to side with my hand make them move as though they would touch the brake, but what wheel apart from a disc cant?
But yep at the end of the day, I get beaten by fast guys on old school box section wheels with old continental tubulars when I am riding my good wheels with nice tubulars. But thats not the wheels fault.
But yep at the end of the day, I get beaten by fast guys on old school box section wheels with old continental tubulars when I am riding my good wheels with nice tubulars. But thats not the wheels fault.
11-04-09, 10:55 PM
#293
Banned
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I'll be honest: I hate my deep carbon rims -- and the others I've ridden -- because they're flexy and handle like complete crap in windy conditions. Anyone who says that deep rims (say, anything 50mm or deeper) don't handle poorly in strong winds is either full of crap or doesn't know what wind is!
The harsh truth about deep carbon rims is: they handle crap in strong winds, they make stuff-all speed difference, they're much more likely to break, and carbon braking surfaces are greatly inferior to aluminium.
Anyone who says that deep rims (say, anything 50mm or deeper) don't handle poorly in strong winds is either full of crap or doesn't know what wind is! The harsh truth about deep carbon rims is: they handle crap in strong winds, they make stuff-all speed difference, they're much more likely to break, and carbon braking surfaces are greatly inferior to aluminium.
11-04-09, 10:56 PM
#294
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To suggest that at 60mm rim with bladed spokes handles just as well as a much shallower rim in strong winds doesn't make sense, because deep rims are like a sail!
A few riders in the two pro races here this year (the Tour Down Under and the Herald-Sun Tour) blamed some crashes on the fact the deep rims were used in very strong crosswinds .
A few riders in the two pro races here this year (the Tour Down Under and the Herald-Sun Tour) blamed some crashes on the fact the deep rims were used in very strong crosswinds .
I reckon lots of the reason they suck is the use of less but bigger flatter bladed spokes though.
11-04-09, 11:20 PM
#295
Peloton Shelter Dog
We have plenty of strong winds in Orange County NY. I've ridden my 58 mm Zipps in 30+ mph crosswinds, they don't feel too much different than regular alu rims.
Maybe if you can't ride those wheels in crosswinds you can't handle a friggin road bicycle. Oh, there's a shock.
Maybe if you can't ride those wheels in crosswinds you can't handle a friggin road bicycle. Oh, there's a shock.
11-04-09, 11:25 PM
#296
Raising the Abyss
Has anyone gone from good AL wheels to good deep carbons?
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"...in Las Vegas where -the electric bills are staggering -the decor hog wild -and the entertainment saccharine -what a golden age -what a time of right and reason -the consumer's king -and unhappiness is treason..."
"...in Las Vegas where -the electric bills are staggering -the decor hog wild -and the entertainment saccharine -what a golden age -what a time of right and reason -the consumer's king -and unhappiness is treason..."
11-04-09, 11:50 PM
#298
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Heck after I ride them I will even tell everyone they suck and you were right, and thus you shall win the debate. 
11-04-09, 11:51 PM
#299
Aluminium Crusader :-)
11-04-09, 11:54 PM
#300
Aluminium Crusader :-)