Inertianinja

(reposting this question without the Felt-specific title)

i'm looking into a 2010 Felt F5. Shimano 105 group. $2000 - $2300 for the team version.
LBS says they have a 2009 Felt F3 in stock for $2300

on Felt's site, the 09 Felt F3 is SRAM Red group (and was $3600)

at this LBS, it's different: Rival shifters, Force cranks, Rival Rear der, Red front der
the rims are different from factory as well.

is this normal or is this some shady tactic?
and, would you buy the bike with this spec over the newer Shimano 105 group?

rangerdavid

no its not normal. did you ask them why it's different from the advertised stock version? sounds like they have either traded out parts or its a used bike. With what you've already said, I wouldn't buy it, or probably anything from them if there's another LBS close by.

Inertianinja

it's weird, because they're a well respected shop in the area and i've already bought one bike from them recently. talked to their guys extensively, they're all very honest and direct.
its not like he tried to hide it, it's just that i looked it up and found that the parts are definitely different.

RichinPeoria

If its advertised with those parts ask them about it. If its not what you want then don't buy it.
I prefer to build my own bikes from the frame up so I know exactly what I have. Its fun and not so hard to do.

jdon

Sounds like they knicked the SRAM Red for another build. This happens all the time as someone may have wanted Red components on another frame. You are looking at a frame with the remaining components. If you can live with that, buy it. It is all good equipment. It isn't as advertised but I am sure they aren't representing it as being so, nor does the price reflect that.

This doesn't reflect badly on the lbs at all. It is the bike business.

garysol1 

I think that price does reflect the changes. It does not appear that the LBS lied or is trying to deceive. No harm no foul....

hansel

i was kind of in the same situation, i got a bmc, but was supposed to have a 09' rival grouppo. One day i got a call saying they ordered the frame and got me a 09' force, didnt really ask questions and i got the bike for the same price. But i dont really know why a bike shop would throw on 3 different style copmponents even if they are from the same manufacturer. Just ask why they want to do it

Inertianinja

i have no experience with SRAM, but various forum threads seem to say that Rival is at least as good as 105.

so, as I'm thinking about it, if I can get a good deal on the bike that has parts as good or better than what I was going to get, I could move up to Red down the road.

this is a little weirder from how I expected this purchase to go.
I don't think I'd be interested if the bike is used / demo / has a lot of miles on it.

EDIT: I read a lot more reviews. I didn't know Rival was so well respected. maybe this is a really good deal.

nitropowered

The price reflects the change in parts. The F3 didn't come with full red. It was just Red Shifters, FD and RD. The brakes, cassette were rival and crank S900

Inertianinja

i'm a bit more weirded out by the fact that they're changing parts than i am about the parts themselves.
so the question is whether it's a good enough deal at $2300. i'm sure it's been ridden, since they've had the bike built for quite some time.

this is the bike: https://farm3.static.flickr.com/2752/...e0fae666_o.jpg

Quel

Someone probably wanted Red on their Caad9-4 or something, so they switched the groups. Price is fair for the change, so it's not really shady.

topflightpro

Some other things to consider:

Most manufacturers put a little footnote in their catalogs and on their Web site saying that component specs are subject to change without notice.

Also, if a manufacturer has a lot of parts and frames left over at the end of the year, they may just combine them to sell them off, regardless of how that model was orginially spec'd. I remember a few years ago, Cannondale had a bunch of Record groups left over, so they put them on their Caad 8 frames - this is before Caad 9 - and sold them as a special model.

Nothing nefarious going on, just manufacturers trying to clear out inventory.

That said, I agree that some one probably wanted a red group so the shop took it off that bike and swapped out parts.

Inertianinja

the more i think about this and read around, i'm more of the mind that this might be a good opportunity to score better-than-entry-level parts on a good frame that can be upgraded, rather than entry level everything.

i appreciate everyone's input, btw.

echappist

fify. there are cat 2's who race on rival. there was also a picture of evelyn stevens placing high riding a rival-equipped bike. rival is legit stuff. force is just a bit lighter, and the main advantage of red is the zero-loss on the right brake lever. the f3, f4, and the f5 differ in the choice of forks, groupsets, and wheelsets. so do make sure the compromise isn't too great & that they didn't swap out the fork as well.

if i were you i'd try to drive down the price. you are essentially getting a rival-equipped bike with an upgraded crank (force is 80g lighter) & FD (quite an inconsequential upgrade). there are many rival equipped bikes selling for that price or lower.

Inertianinja

UPDATE

I went to the shop and took a look at the bike. it's quite nice. i asked about the components, and he was like "we've had the frame for a while, so we swapped out the components to make the price more accessible so it would sell." i knew i liked this shop. the bike pictured was a 56cm, unfortunately it looks a tad small for me. (i'm kind of a 57; bike had a 100mm stem, i was a little cramped although the TT was a good length, etc)

they had a 58 that wasn't totally built up; but they would build it up the same way. problem - there were two small chips in the top of the downtube, above the bottle cage screws. the chips are deeper than the decals / top layer...the shop's mechanic looked at it and said that it was cosmetic and not dangerous. we talked about the options for a while. i did not get the impression that he was trying to sell me something dangerous just because he didn't think i'd ever stress it enough to break it.
he said he'd build the bike up and i'd come back saturday. i'll try out the 58, probably knock some more off the price accordingly.

so i guess the issue i'll have to decide is whether (a) i'm willing to buy a slightly damaged frame in order to save money and (b) whether i trust this shop in saying that it's 'cosmetic' damage.

so i guess the question is - what level of "cosmetic" damage would you be okay with on a carbon bike?
i've done some reading. i know people are very wary about riding damaged carbon fiber. failure at speed scares me too
on the other hand, this was on the top of the tube, about 5'' from where the bottle cage holes were. it was clear that the bike wasn't crashed.
and i'm sure it can't be that carbon frames have to stay literally perfect in order to be rideable.
also note, i doubt i will be pushing this frame to its limits anytime soon.

?

Eclectus

Red FD is weak. Titanium to shave weight. That was not a smart move, because it's too flexy. I learned how to "baby" it on upshifts, but if I knew then what I know now, I would have ordered Force FD, cheaper and little weight gain.

Ask them about switching. You might have to pay more (aggravating for a cheaper MSRP component) to put on Force or Rival, but you'll get a more robust product.

Inertianinja

i've done a lot of reading about carbon fiber since seeing these little dents / chips in that bike's frame.
apparently a "cloudy" look means delamination, whereas glassy chips are just cosmetic?
i'm thinking of calling Felt and ask them what they think about it.
when i go to actually check out the bike i'll ask these dudes about whether they've really looked at it, whether it will affect my warranty, and whether it's "final sale" or not.
some have said that if it's cosmetic, the bike will be damaged over time anyway, i might as well go for a good deal, even if it is an '09 chipped frame

Inertianinja

in case anybody's reading....

i called Felt's customer service / warranty department.
i described the damage as about 1-2mm deep (guess), etc. he said that:
it won't affect the warranty, and that unless it's through the paint AND the cosmetic fiber layer, it's okay; CF is very tough stuff.
he also said to just fill it in with some clear nail polish and i'd "never see it again"

this is at odds with what a lot of people say around here (in some threads, people have shown light scratches no their bikes and received advice that they should trash the frame). interesting!

Brian Ratliff

1+. Yup, looks like the swapped the group set, but they also lowered the price by over $1000 and put it comparable to the 2010 with 105. I don't think there is anything wrong with this. What would be wrong is if they represented that the bike actually cost $3600 and they gave you a great deal by making the price $2300. And this would be slimy but forgivable in my book being that it was just words; actual price still reflects actual value.

What would be really slimy is if they sold the bike to you with Rival/Force components at the (Red equipped) MSRP. That would be worth a call to the BBB.

echappist

as long as Felt is ok with giving you a warranty, you have nothing to worry about. just in case, do ask them about frame replacement policies. i also do recall that Felt was reducing their F3 (the red equipped ones) to about 2600 sometimes late summer, so you may want to drive down the price a bit. carbon fiber is sturdy (although i'd go with titanium for my next frame). i once overtightened the clamp on the top tube of my six13 & heard a weird noise,took it to LBS & they said it looked just fine. btw, what bikeshop is this?

edit: check out this post from a few months ago. https://www.bikeforums.net/showthread...hlight=felt+f3

aecky01

Those people with light scratches have usually been in a crash of some kind. The scratch on the bike might have been something as simple as the mechanic dropped an allen wrench and it put a small scratch in the tube no biggie. Now in the event of crash that is were even small things are suspect. The bike may be fine, or could be completely busted up inside, you have no way of knowing. This is a big reason why bike manufacturers offer crash replacement policies.

Inertianinja

i'm going back and forth on this decision. kind of obsessing about it, honestly.

maybe '09 + swapped components + cosmetic damage is too many concessions to make.

Frunkin

People freak out way too much about carbon bikes. You won't notice it after your first time out. And I definitely vote for the Felt.

icon

See if they could get you another '09 model frame with no damages for the same price as the 56cm frame that was too small for you. Then put the same components on it. It doesn't hurt to ask.

patentcad

Don't ask so many questions.