soul 4.0 hub failure..
07-09-10, 08:07 AM
#51
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Of course the hub showed signs of oxidation. That's why it failed. Had you picked a more suited alloy in the first place this wouldn't have happened.
For a very quick look at why 2000 series isn't appropriate. go here.
The most pointed excerpt:
"2000 series are alloyed with copper, can be precipitation hardened to strengths comparable to steel. Formerly referred to as duralumin, they were once the most common aerospace alloys, but were susceptible to stress corrosion cracking and are increasingly replaced by 7000 series in new designs."
I'm not sure who you materials engineer is, or if you have any actual background in the subject, but normal cleaning wouldn't have done little if anything to prevent the corrosion. While the OP's riding in the rain no doubt greatly accelerated the corrosion, I'd hardly call riding in the rain "neglect", but it does help set up a galvanic cell when in contact with a steel spoke.
It's apparent that you went for light over durable, had issues, and moved to a different alloy. That's great. But persisting in asserting that cleaning somehow trumps electron transfer is just nutty.
Let's not cloud a business decision which you are well within your rights to make with engineering quackery.
For a very quick look at why 2000 series isn't appropriate. go here.
The most pointed excerpt:
"2000 series are alloyed with copper, can be precipitation hardened to strengths comparable to steel. Formerly referred to as duralumin, they were once the most common aerospace alloys, but were susceptible to stress corrosion cracking and are increasingly replaced by 7000 series in new designs."
I'm not sure who you materials engineer is, or if you have any actual background in the subject, but normal cleaning wouldn't have done little if anything to prevent the corrosion. While the OP's riding in the rain no doubt greatly accelerated the corrosion, I'd hardly call riding in the rain "neglect", but it does help set up a galvanic cell when in contact with a steel spoke.
It's apparent that you went for light over durable, had issues, and moved to a different alloy. That's great. But persisting in asserting that cleaning somehow trumps electron transfer is just nutty.
Let's not cloud a business decision which you are well within your rights to make with engineering quackery.
The quality of carbon used on frames 3 years ago is inferior to the quality of carbon used on frames today.
Does that mean that every company should give out free frames using the current material? No obviously not because that would be F%#$ing ridiculous.
I'd take Sean up on his generous offer to sell you a hub at a great price and move on. Next time buy a new product with a non-expired warranty.
Last edited by Steve90068; 07-09-10 at 08:11 AM.
07-09-10, 08:50 AM
#52
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A good friend I ride with just bought some Dura Ace wheels used on ebay. The inside bearing race was completely corroded and would not spin smooth. They were also outside of warranty. BUT Shimano replaced the rear hub after some negotiations becaseu they felt that it should not have corroded as fast. The wheel had also been rebuilt by first owner and sealed with non shimano seal. This changed my perspective on shimano as a company as that is above and beyond to take care of a customer.
07-09-10, 08:53 AM
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Sean owes you nothing. I think the $80 hub offer is what he SHOULD do, but not even required.
the further arguments are reCOCKulous. please keep them going.
the further arguments are reCOCKulous. please keep them going.
07-09-10, 08:53 AM
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Shimano is far larger than Soul.
Something to consider before we start comparing brands.
Something to consider before we start comparing brands.
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07-09-10, 09:09 AM
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07-09-10, 09:10 AM
#56
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This thread is interesting and for some reason, brings up several contradictory issues.
First off, I'm with the "The warranty on the second-hand product is expired, Dude. Man up."
That said, it's tempting to enthusiastically harass a business owner who uses what's supposed to be a non-commercial discussion forum to announce new products and otherwise shill his product line. And he gets away with it. Psimet sets a much better example of how to do that, IMO.
On the other hand, I think it's refreshing and very enlightening to have Sean come on here and give his side of the story. That's one way that message boards like this one can improve the customer/manufacturer relationship.
Finally, my experience with Shimano on warranty issues has been outstanding. I get the impression they really care about improving their products and making bad things right.
First off, I'm with the "The warranty on the second-hand product is expired, Dude. Man up."
That said, it's tempting to enthusiastically harass a business owner who uses what's supposed to be a non-commercial discussion forum to announce new products and otherwise shill his product line. And he gets away with it. Psimet sets a much better example of how to do that, IMO.
On the other hand, I think it's refreshing and very enlightening to have Sean come on here and give his side of the story. That's one way that message boards like this one can improve the customer/manufacturer relationship.
Finally, my experience with Shimano on warranty issues has been outstanding. I get the impression they really care about improving their products and making bad things right.
Last edited by Daytrip; 07-09-10 at 09:13 AM.
07-09-10, 09:15 AM
#57
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Whereas I'm in the school of "don't make bad things in the first place"
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07-09-10, 09:24 AM
#59
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disagrees.
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"When you are chewing the bars at the business end of a 90 mile road race you really dont care what gear you have hanging from your bike so long as it works."
ΛΧΑ ΔΞ179 - 15% off your first Hammer Nutrition order!
"When you are chewing the bars at the business end of a 90 mile road race you really dont care what gear you have hanging from your bike so long as it works."
ΛΧΑ ΔΞ179 - 15% off your first Hammer Nutrition order!
07-09-10, 09:26 AM
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This thread is interesting and for some reason, brings up several contradictory issues.
First off, I'm with the "The warranty on the second-hand product is expired, Dude. Man up."
That said, it's tempting to enthusiastically harass a business owner who uses what's supposed to be a non-commercial discussion forum to announce new products and otherwise shill his product line. And he gets away with it. Psimet sets a much better example of how to do that, IMO.
On the other hand, I think it's refreshing and very enlightening to have Sean come on here and give his side of the story. That's one way that message boards like this one can improve the customer/manufacturer relationship.
Finally, my experience with Shimano on warranty issues has been outstanding. I get the impression they really care about improving their products and making bad things right.
First off, I'm with the "The warranty on the second-hand product is expired, Dude. Man up."
That said, it's tempting to enthusiastically harass a business owner who uses what's supposed to be a non-commercial discussion forum to announce new products and otherwise shill his product line. And he gets away with it. Psimet sets a much better example of how to do that, IMO.
On the other hand, I think it's refreshing and very enlightening to have Sean come on here and give his side of the story. That's one way that message boards like this one can improve the customer/manufacturer relationship.
Finally, my experience with Shimano on warranty issues has been outstanding. I get the impression they really care about improving their products and making bad things right.
07-09-10, 09:42 AM
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Whew! Dude, I thought you were going to give me another triple facepalm.
07-09-10, 10:43 AM
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07-09-10, 10:52 AM
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07-09-10, 10:53 AM
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07-09-10, 10:53 AM
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There seems to be a bunch of false logic propagated here. So, if an inferior product has excessive failure outside of warranty then the company has no obligation to recall that product? Sorry, but if the 2nd owner had crashed due to inferior materials and engineering of a product then guess who carries the liability - Just ask the big auto manufacturers.
The real question is whether neglect/ rider use caused the failure? or material choice and design. The manufacturer's obligation can not be questioned until the first answer is determined.
The real question is whether neglect/ rider use caused the failure? or material choice and design. The manufacturer's obligation can not be questioned until the first answer is determined.
07-09-10, 10:57 AM
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There seems to be a bunch of false logic propagated here. So, if an inferior product has excessive failure outside of warranty then the company has no obligation to recall that product? Sorry, but if the 2nd owner had crashed due to inferior materials and engineering of a product then guess who carries the liability - Just ask the big auto manufacturers.
The real question is whether neglect/ rider use caused the failure? or material choice and design. The manufacturer's obligation can not be questioned until the first answer is determined.
The real question is whether neglect/ rider use caused the failure? or material choice and design. The manufacturer's obligation can not be questioned until the first answer is determined.
07-09-10, 10:59 AM
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07-09-10, 11:03 AM
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07-09-10, 11:23 AM
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There seems to be a bunch of false logic propagated here. So, if an inferior product has excessive failure outside of warranty then the company has no obligation to recall that product? Sorry, but if the 2nd owner had crashed due to inferior materials and engineering of a product then guess who carries the liability - Just ask the big auto manufacturers
.
.
Back in the 80's Campagnolo made a bunch of Super Record bottom brackets. The titanium spindle didn't hold up well and would break. Their reparation was to give you a steel one. So what if it cost 1/4 of what the titanium one did. Too bad. That's the price of technology.
$80 for a new hub is reasonable since you bought the wheels on eBay and really have no idea how they were treated before you bought them.
07-09-10, 11:31 AM
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this is basically the same hub, minus the custom anodizing and soul label.
https://www.bdopcycling.com/Hubs-Road.asp
https://www.bdopcycling.com/Hubs-Road.asp
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Food for thought: if you aren't dead by 2050, you and your entire family will be within a few years from starvation. Now that is a cruel gift to leave for your offspring. ;)
https://sanfrancisco.ibtimes.com/arti...ger-photos.htm
07-09-10, 11:36 AM
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I'm loving all the armchair metallurgists in this thread. Let me go read a wiki article about something and pass myself off as an expert in it real quick... BRB!
07-09-10, 11:40 AM
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Soul or Shimano's liability in the case of product failure is the same, a user of the product is eligible for the same legal remedy that their jurisdiction allows. subject to the same caveats provided within the law.
07-09-10, 11:42 AM
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There didn't seem to be any whiffs of "armchair" analysis from the two people that actually commented about materials and stress failures. It sounds like they actual know what they are talking about.
07-09-10, 11:46 AM
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^
I am not an attorney, maybe you are. You are making a point strictly by the law, and you would be correct. The liability is the same. How a specialty manufacturer and a huge conglomerate are expected to deal with it in the eyes of a jury should be different. That's the point I was trying to make.
I am not an attorney, maybe you are. You are making a point strictly by the law, and you would be correct. The liability is the same. How a specialty manufacturer and a huge conglomerate are expected to deal with it in the eyes of a jury should be different. That's the point I was trying to make.