Go Back  Bike Forums > Bike Forums > Road Cycling
Reload this Page >

SRAM Rival chain rub normal?

Notices
Road Cycling “It is by riding a bicycle that you learn the contours of a country best, since you have to sweat up the hills and coast down them. Thus you remember them as they actually are, while in a motor car only a high hill impresses you, and you have no such accurate remembrance of country you have driven through as you gain by riding a bicycle.” -- Ernest Hemingway

SRAM Rival chain rub normal?

Old 08-07-10, 03:53 PM
  #1  
Senior Member
Thread Starter
 
Join Date: Sep 2008
Posts: 66
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 0 Times in 0 Posts
SRAM Rival chain rub normal?

I have a CAAD 9-4 with the compact crank. It was dropping the chain on the downshift from the big ring to the little ring. Always at the worst time.

In the little ring using the highest gears (smallest cogs) the chain would rub.

Took it back for the 200 mile checkup and the LBS tells me it"s the nature of the beast. Adjusted out to the max and shouldn't drop the chain anymore but the rub is "normal" for that setup. I have a 20 year old Shimano that is whisper quiet and never dropped the chain or rubs against the FD. Granted it has adjustments that can move it if it did.

I just don't think Cannondale would sell a setup that rubbed "normally"
Anyone else experience this?
j mazz is offline  
Old 08-07-10, 04:05 PM
  #2  
Senior Member
 
tagaproject6's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2009
Posts: 8,550

Bikes: Wilier Izoard XP (Record);Cinelli Xperience (Force);Specialized Allez (Rival);Bianchi Via Nirone 7 (Centaur); Colnago AC-R Disc;Colnago V1r Limited Edition;De Rosa King 3 Limited(Force 22);DeRosa Merak(Red):Pinarello Dogma 65.1 Hydro(Di2)

Mentioned: 2 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 551 Post(s)
Liked 276 Times in 144 Posts
I don't know if the SRAM Force is very different from the rival, but, I am using an 11-28 and 34-50 combination and and have no chain rub at all even at extreme cross-chain. Check the angle and height of your FD in relation to your chainset and make sure they are within tolerance. Check also the chain you are using. A wide/thick chain will also rub. Look for another LBS while you're at it.
tagaproject6 is offline  
Old 08-07-10, 04:12 PM
  #3  
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Apr 2008
Posts: 2,454
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 2 Times in 1 Post
Chain rub is normal in extreme gears.

However, Rival uses a wide cage derailleur body I believe. If you set it up correctly you should be able to set it up without any rub even in extreme gears. Just set the limits tolerances to be really close.
ptle is offline  
Old 08-07-10, 04:17 PM
  #4  
Bike ≠ Car ≠ Ped.
 
BarracksSi's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2007
Location: Washington, DC
Posts: 13,861

Bikes: Some bikes. Hell, they're all the same, ain't they?

Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 2 Post(s)
Liked 5 Times in 4 Posts
https://www.parktool.com/repair/readhowto.asp?id=75

Also, it's possible that the chain is zinging against the inboard side of the big chainring when you're in the extreme small-small combo. I've noticed this on one of my bikes. Trimming the FD via the shifter doesn't make a difference, but shifting to the next-to-smallest cog makes it disappear (as does shifting to the big chainring).

It's a different kind of sound, though. Instead of the "brrrr brrr" you'd get with FD rub, it has a "grriing grriiing" sound, at least on my Shimano and Sugino cranks, as the chain nicks the pins on the big ring.
BarracksSi is offline  
Old 08-07-10, 04:40 PM
  #5  
383
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Feb 2010
Posts: 550
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 0 Times in 0 Posts
I'm having some issues with Rival too. I got the chain rub to go away by tinkering with the FD a bunch and I can get all combinations now except redundant ones. However I do have a problem with cable tension in my big-small (53-12) combination that is really annoying. I cant get the combination to work without the sound of the derailler trying to move. The problem came out of nowhere. So just keep messing with it till u get it.
383 is offline  
Old 08-07-10, 05:10 PM
  #6  
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Jul 2010
Location: Greensboro, NC
Posts: 445
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 6 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 0 Times in 0 Posts
Originally Posted by j mazz
I have a CAAD 9-4 with the compact crank. It was dropping the chain on the downshift from the big ring to the little ring. Always at the worst time.

In the little ring using the highest gears (smallest cogs) the chain would rub.

Took it back for the 200 mile checkup and the LBS tells me it"s the nature of the beast. Adjusted out to the max and shouldn't drop the chain anymore but the rub is "normal" for that setup. I have a 20 year old Shimano that is whisper quiet and never dropped the chain or rubs against the FD. Granted it has adjustments that can move it if it did.

I just don't think Cannondale would sell a setup that rubbed "normally"
Anyone else experience this?
My bike shop told me the same thing. The chain will have a little rub.
uncrx2003 is offline  
Old 08-07-10, 05:12 PM
  #7  
Bike ≠ Car ≠ Ped.
 
BarracksSi's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2007
Location: Washington, DC
Posts: 13,861

Bikes: Some bikes. Hell, they're all the same, ain't they?

Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 2 Post(s)
Liked 5 Times in 4 Posts
Rival has trim for the front shifter in the small ring, doesn't it?
BarracksSi is offline  
Old 08-07-10, 07:21 PM
  #8  
Junior Member
 
Join Date: Nov 2008
Posts: 19
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 0 Times in 0 Posts
Originally Posted by BarracksSi
Rival has trim for the front shifter in the small ring, doesn't it?
Not first gen, it doesn't. I will soon discover this when I install that groupset. It seems like with Rival you need to setup those limit screws with surgical precision. Also, I'd suppose any cable slip will cause performance issues. 2009 added front trim in one direction only, from what I've read.

WRT to the OP - any extreme gear combinations will be sub optimal for rub. It's life.
krooj is offline  
Old 08-07-10, 10:36 PM
  #9  
383
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Feb 2010
Posts: 550
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 0 Times in 0 Posts
Originally Posted by BarracksSi
Rival has trim for the front shifter in the small ring, doesn't it?
big ring
383 is offline  
Old 08-08-10, 04:03 AM
  #10  
Senior Member
 
roadwarrior's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2002
Location: Someplace trying to figure it out
Posts: 10,664

Bikes: Cannondale EVO, CAAD9, Giant cross bike.

Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 67 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 7 Times in 6 Posts
Originally Posted by j mazz
I have a CAAD 9-4 with the compact crank. It was dropping the chain on the downshift from the big ring to the little ring. Always at the worst time.

In the little ring using the highest gears (smallest cogs) the chain would rub.

Took it back for the 200 mile checkup and the LBS tells me it"s the nature of the beast. Adjusted out to the max and shouldn't drop the chain anymore but the rub is "normal" for that setup. I have a 20 year old Shimano that is whisper quiet and never dropped the chain or rubs against the FD. Granted it has adjustments that can move it if it did.

I just don't think Cannondale would sell a setup that rubbed "normally"
Anyone else experience this?
Why are you cross chaining? Why ride in the 34 and the 12 or 13? Go to the 50 and find a gear in the rear that works.

Don't cross chain.
roadwarrior is offline  
Old 08-08-10, 06:42 AM
  #11  
SLO-1
 
Yaniel's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2009
Location: Miami, FL
Posts: 2,691

Bikes: '09 BMC Road Racer SL01

Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 0 Times in 0 Posts
mine rubs on the 2 smallest gears on the small chain ring, but that isn't a big deal because i'm usually on the big ring before that happens. I can use all 10 cogs from the big ring and not even need the trim.
Yaniel is offline  
Old 08-08-10, 09:41 AM
  #12  
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Jan 2007
Location: NorCal
Posts: 1,695

Bikes: Kestrel Talon

Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 0 Times in 0 Posts
Shift to the big ring.

My rival drivetrain does rub a bit on the small/small combo, but I never use that anyway - you should have the same overall gear available using the big ring and a different cog (or at least something very close to it). BTW, Rival does have FD trim - on the big ring.

JB
jonathanb715 is offline  
Old 08-08-10, 09:44 AM
  #13  
Senior Member
 
roadwarrior's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2002
Location: Someplace trying to figure it out
Posts: 10,664

Bikes: Cannondale EVO, CAAD9, Giant cross bike.

Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 67 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 7 Times in 6 Posts
One more time:

Do not cross chain.

That is all.
roadwarrior is offline  
Old 08-08-10, 10:50 AM
  #14  
Bike ≠ Car ≠ Ped.
 
BarracksSi's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2007
Location: Washington, DC
Posts: 13,861

Bikes: Some bikes. Hell, they're all the same, ain't they?

Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 2 Post(s)
Liked 5 Times in 4 Posts
Originally Posted by jonathanb715
BTW, Rival does have FD trim - on the big ring.
I thought that Rival and Force had it on the small ring, and Red on the big. Not that I've spent enough time on a Sram bike, anyway.

Anyway, yeah, the noise of the FD rubbing is your signal to quit cross-chaining and shift the front. Although it shouldn't be bad on a properly adjusted FD, either.
BarracksSi is offline  
Old 08-08-10, 11:05 AM
  #15  
Senior Member
Thread Starter
 
Join Date: Sep 2008
Posts: 66
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 0 Times in 0 Posts
yah, yah, yah, don't cross chain - I say, then why is it there? I want to get down the street as fast as possible not do calculations in my head, I don't even want to look down. What chain am I on, how many teeth, let's see, if I shift now, what ratio will I be in? will I have to up or downshift from there?, etc. etc. easier to just stay in that ring and make the quicker shifts.
I finished a 30 miler this morning... annoying to have it rub, nobody else on my group ride seems to have this iisue, Bianchi, Felt, Scott. Switching from the small to big ring is not clean and quick on the Rival either. Just not a big fan of it, debated getting the 105 group... woulda, shoulda, coulda.
j mazz is offline  
Old 08-08-10, 11:14 AM
  #16  
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Jan 2007
Location: NorCal
Posts: 1,695

Bikes: Kestrel Talon

Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 0 Times in 0 Posts
Originally Posted by j mazz
yah, yah, yah, don't cross chain - I say, then why is it there? I want to get down the street as fast as possible not do calculations in my head, I don't even want to look down. What chain am I on, how many teeth, let's see, if I shift now, what ratio will I be in? will I have to up or downshift from there?, etc. etc. easier to just stay in that ring and make the quicker shifts.
I finished a 30 miler this morning... annoying to have it rub, nobody else on my group ride seems to have this iisue, Bianchi, Felt, Scott. Switching from the small to big ring is not clean and quick on the Rival either. Just not a big fan of it, debated getting the 105 group... woulda, shoulda, coulda.
I do most of my riding in the big ring (compact chain rings) - I only go down to the small for climbing. However, if the FD is setup well shifting between the front rings should be fine. It takes a bit longer than the rear shifts, but it's really not bad and not a problem on my bike - it's very close to what my old ultegra-equippped bike used to shift like on the front. Oh, and my Ultegra bike rubbed a bit too if I tried to go small small.

And just an FYI - chains really aren't made to bend much laterally. If you run cross chained, even if there's no rub, you are reducing the life of your chain. The small cogs are there to be used with the big ring, and the big cogs are there to be used with the small ring. The ones in between are there to be used with either. IMHO.

JB
jonathanb715 is offline  
Old 08-08-10, 11:23 AM
  #17  
SLO-1
 
Yaniel's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2009
Location: Miami, FL
Posts: 2,691

Bikes: '09 BMC Road Racer SL01

Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 0 Times in 0 Posts
Originally Posted by j mazz
yah, yah, yah, don't cross chain - I say, then why is it there? I want to get down the street as fast as possible not do calculations in my head, I don't even want to look down. What chain am I on, how many teeth, let's see, if I shift now, what ratio will I be in? will I have to up or downshift from there?, etc. etc. easier to just stay in that ring and make the quicker shifts.
I finished a 30 miler this morning... annoying to have it rub, nobody else on my group ride seems to have this iisue, Bianchi, Felt, Scott. Switching from the small to big ring is not clean and quick on the Rival either. Just not a big fan of it, debated getting the 105 group... woulda, shoulda, coulda.
your group seems to be tuned wrong. my rival group shifts perfectly on the front ring, and only rubs slightly on the small ring. my old 105 group on the other hand would ruB on the derailleur and the large ring. If you want to fix your chain rub problem, i'd look into whos tuning it. On the other hand, it could be your frame. My friends bike has chainstays that are a different length than mine and puts his chain in much more extreme angles.

Not cross chaining doesn't require as much thought as you make it seem. If that's too complicated maybe a geared bike just isn't for you. Anyway, if you're trying to get down the street as fast as possible, why are you even in the small ring?

Last edited by Yaniel; 08-08-10 at 11:29 AM.
Yaniel is offline  
Old 08-08-10, 11:25 AM
  #18  
Bike ≠ Car ≠ Ped.
 
BarracksSi's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2007
Location: Washington, DC
Posts: 13,861

Bikes: Some bikes. Hell, they're all the same, ain't they?

Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 2 Post(s)
Liked 5 Times in 4 Posts
Originally Posted by j mazz
yah, yah, yah, don't cross chain - I say, then why is it there? I want to get down the street as fast as possible not do calculations in my head, I don't even want to look down. What chain am I on, how many teeth, let's see, if I shift now, what ratio will I be in? will I have to up or downshift from there?, etc. etc. easier to just stay in that ring and make the quicker shifts.
To a point, yeah, it's easier. I don't bother calculating ratios, though, or even going through a routine like, "Okay, if I'm in my 34-13 now, then I shift to the 50, I should shift to the 16... or was it the 17?..."

Generally, if you shift about three cogs at the same time you shift the front, your cadence will be the same, or at least close enough. Push the RD lever through a full sweep when you shift the FD to the big ring, and click it down a few times when going the other way. No need to count teeth during a ride.

Besides, I use the big ring for going fast, and the small ring for noodling around. Keeps things easier that way.

I finished a 30 miler this morning... annoying to have it rub, nobody else on my group ride seems to have this iisue, Bianchi, Felt, Scott. Switching from the small to big ring is not clean and quick on the Rival either. Just not a big fan of it, debated getting the 105 group... woulda, shoulda, coulda.
I'm tempted to recommend getting a 105 crank. I don't like Sram/Truvativ cranks anymore. Wait for it to crap out and ask your LBS to use warranty credit and switch it to Shimano so you don't have to worry about it again.
BarracksSi is offline  
Old 08-08-10, 11:30 AM
  #19  
SLO-1
 
Yaniel's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2009
Location: Miami, FL
Posts: 2,691

Bikes: '09 BMC Road Racer SL01

Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 0 Times in 0 Posts
Originally Posted by BarracksSi
I thought that Rival and Force had it on the small ring, and Red on the big. Not that I've spent enough time on a Sram bike, anyway.

Anyway, yeah, the noise of the FD rubbing is your signal to quit cross-chaining and shift the front. Although it shouldn't be bad on a properly adjusted FD, either.
2010 force and rival has big ring trim. 2009 i believe was small ring.
Yaniel is offline  
Old 08-08-10, 12:45 PM
  #20  
Big Blade
 
Howzit's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2009
Posts: 950
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 0 Times in 0 Posts
Originally Posted by j mazz
It was dropping the chain on the downshift from the big ring to the little ring. Always at the worst time.


Took it back for the 200 mile checkup and the LBS tells me it"s the nature of the beast. Adjusted out to the max and shouldn't drop the chain anymore but the rub is "normal" for that setup. I have a 20 year old Shimano that is whisper quiet and never dropped the chain or rubs against the FD. Granted it has adjustments that can move it if it did.

I just don't think Cannondale would sell a setup that rubbed "normally"
Unfortunately this IS the nature of SRAM. Its crap, its useless. I had a conversation with a guy who has owned a bike shop for over 30 years, and I asked him as he was closing shop, i pulled him up close and asked what he really thought of the 3 groupos, shimano, campy and sram. I assured him no other Americans where around so he could be honest with me. He promptly told me that Sram is the most useless peice of junk he has ever seen. I asked him why. He told me on taking apart sram stuff, you quickly see its crude, low quality parts that make it what it is. He said Shimano is just far more sophisticated, better built and just is the real deal. Campy he said was ok, pretty soild too. I agree with him exactly.

This is not the first time i hear people say dropping the chain or rubbing is NORMAL. Sram seems to believe this to be the case, and so does everyone who owns sram. My advise would be to go onto ebay, and get a new set of Dura Ace or Ultegra and be done with it. You can get last year's models online for real cheap, brand new in the box. You can even build it yourself and never have any rubbing or chain dropping issues with shimano old friend.
Now, of course everyone is going to chime in here who owns sram and defend it to the death, but i think by now you realize the realities of sram

Originally Posted by j mazz
Anyone else experience this?
Yes, Andy Schleck this year in the Tour De France, who ironically lost the tour by 39 seconds in the end, the exact time he lost the stage when his sram dropped the chain when he attacked..... think about that one. His chain skipped gear too a couple of times in the final TT as well, so there you have it....

You need not worry, it IS normal for chain rub and chain dropping with sram... either you except it and live with it, or just get shimano and be done with it.
Howzit is offline  
Old 08-08-10, 12:56 PM
  #21  
SLO-1
 
Yaniel's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2009
Location: Miami, FL
Posts: 2,691

Bikes: '09 BMC Road Racer SL01

Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 0 Times in 0 Posts
Originally Posted by Howzit
Unfortunately this IS the nature of SRAM. Its crap, its useless. I had a conversation with a guy who has owned a bike shop for over 30 years, and I asked him as he was closing shop, i pulled him up close and asked what he really thought of the 3 groupos, shimano, campy and sram. I assured him no other Americans where around so he could be honest with me. He promptly told me that Sram is the most useless peice of junk he has ever seen. I asked him why. He told me on taking apart sram stuff, you quickly see its crude, low quality parts that make it what it is. He said Shimano is just far more sophisticated, better built and just is the real deal. Campy he said was ok, pretty soild too. I agree with him exactly.

This is not the first time i hear people say dropping the chain or rubbing is NORMAL. Sram seems to believe this to be the case, and so does everyone who owns sram. My advise would be to go onto ebay, and get a new set of Dura Ace or Ultegra and be done with it. You can get last year's models online for real cheap, brand new in the box. You can even build it yourself and never have any rubbing or chain dropping issues with shimano old friend.
Now, of course everyone is going to chime in here who owns sram and defend it to the death, but i think by now you realize the realities of sram



Yes, Andy Schleck this year in the Tour De France, who ironically lost the tour by 39 seconds in the end, the exact time he lost the stage when his sram dropped the chain when he attacked..... think about that one. His chain skipped gear too a couple of times in the final TT as well, so there you have it....

You need not worry, it IS normal for chain rub and chain dropping with sram... either you except it and live with it, or just get shimano and be done with it.

seriously? you focus on that one tdf incident? what about the fact that contador was also on sram and didn't have a single issue? what about that all 3 podium finishers last year were on sram and didn't have an issue either? I recently upgraded from 105 to rival AND removed my chain catcher because SRAM just shifts better.
Yaniel is offline  
Old 08-08-10, 01:01 PM
  #22  
No matches
 
Flatballer's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2008
Location: Eastern PA
Posts: 11,647

Bikes: two wheeled ones

Mentioned: 15 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1398 Post(s)
Liked 444 Times in 250 Posts
Originally Posted by Yaniel
seriously? you focus on that one tdf incident? what about the fact that contador was also on sram and didn't have a single issue? what about that all 3 podium finishers last year were on sram and didn't have an issue either? I recently upgraded from 105 to rival AND removed my chain catcher because SRAM just shifts better.
Flatballer is offline  
Old 08-08-10, 01:04 PM
  #23  
Big Blade
 
Howzit's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2009
Posts: 950
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 0 Times in 0 Posts
Originally Posted by Yaniel
seriously? you focus on that one tdf incident? what about the fact that contador was also on sram and didn't have a single issue? what about that all 3 podium finishers last year were on sram and didn't have an issue either? I recently upgraded from 105 to rival AND removed my chain catcher because SRAM just shifts better.
im focusing on ANY chain drops that had consequence in the Tour, and guess what, it was sram that rose to the occasion, several times this year. You simply dont get it.
See, you dont even know that Contadors mechanic MODIFIED his rear dérailleur because it was giving the same problem. He switched out the pulleys because it was skipping gears like Schleck's bike.
Like I said, you just dont get it. And you own sram, so of course its great stuff, just great stuff right?
Howzit is offline  
Old 08-08-10, 01:06 PM
  #24  
SLO-1
 
Yaniel's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2009
Location: Miami, FL
Posts: 2,691

Bikes: '09 BMC Road Racer SL01

Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 0 Times in 0 Posts
Originally Posted by Howzit
im focusing on ANY chain drops that had consequence in the Tour, and guess what, it was sram that rose to the occasion, several times this year. You simply dont get it.
See, you dont even know that Contadors mechanic MODIFIED his rear dérailleur because it was giving the same problem. He switched out the pulleys because it was skipping gears like Schleck's bike.
Like I said, you just dont get it. And you own sram, so of course its great stuff, just great stuff right?
I get it. you want to point fingers at anyone that likes sram without realizing you're doing the same for shimano.
Yaniel is offline  
Old 08-08-10, 01:07 PM
  #25  
SLO-1
 
Yaniel's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2009
Location: Miami, FL
Posts: 2,691

Bikes: '09 BMC Road Racer SL01

Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 0 Times in 0 Posts
Originally Posted by Flatballer
Touché
Yaniel is offline  

Thread Tools
Search this Thread

Contact Us - Archive - Advertising - Cookie Policy - Privacy Statement - Terms of Service -

Copyright © 2024 MH Sub I, LLC dba Internet Brands. All rights reserved. Use of this site indicates your consent to the Terms of Use.