A good, Fast, 25c tire?
#1
Member
Thread Starter
Join Date: Aug 2010
Posts: 37
Bikes: Trek 2100, Gavin Acele
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 0 Times
in
0 Posts
A good, Fast, 25c tire?
I tried a set of 25c and really liked the ride quality but they seemed sluggish. Is there such a thing as a fast 25c tire?
#2
Making a kilometer blurry
Any overinflated 25c will roll well, but there goes the ride. All 25c tires are heavier than if they were the same design in a 23c, so they'll feel sluggish when you're swinging the bike around.
Of course everyone else on BF can "feel" that kind of weight difference when riding normally, even though the physics doesn't add up to a perceptible difference.
Of course everyone else on BF can "feel" that kind of weight difference when riding normally, even though the physics doesn't add up to a perceptible difference.
#4
Chasing the horizon.
Join Date: Feb 2009
Location: Michigan
Posts: 500
Bikes: 2016 Felt F75, 2008 Mercier Corvus Steel, 2006 Trek 4300, 1985 Trek 620 (modernized)
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 0 Times
in
0 Posts
Any overinflated 25c will roll well, but there goes the ride. All 25c tires are heavier than if they were the same design in a 23c, so they'll feel sluggish when you're swinging the bike around.
Of course everyone else on BF can "feel" that kind of weight difference when riding normally, even though the physics doesn't add up to a perceptible difference.
Of course everyone else on BF can "feel" that kind of weight difference when riding normally, even though the physics doesn't add up to a perceptible difference.
People are more influenced by marketing than they let on. With tires inflated to similar pressures, there's no perceptible difference in energy efficiency/performance.
If you're looking for good all-purpose tires, Michelin tires seem to do very well. The continentals I've had are great for carving apart corners, but they seem to wear much faster than every other brand I've tried.
#5
Member
Thread Starter
Join Date: Aug 2010
Posts: 37
Bikes: Trek 2100, Gavin Acele
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 0 Times
in
0 Posts
Here`s where I`m at now. Loved the Michelin 25c tires that came on my new wheels but they were like magnets for stones and got cut too easily. I have conti ultra sports now. They dont pick up stone,glass,etc.. but I swear its like riding with a brake pad dragging.
#6
Chasing the horizon.
Join Date: Feb 2009
Location: Michigan
Posts: 500
Bikes: 2016 Felt F75, 2008 Mercier Corvus Steel, 2006 Trek 4300, 1985 Trek 620 (modernized)
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 0 Times
in
0 Posts
Under normal riding conditions on reasonably smooth, straight roads, you shouldn't notice any difference. Unless, of course, the recommended inflations are different. The contis are probably recommended for 100-120 psi. I usually run my tires just over recommended inflation by 2-3 psi, and inflate my tires every couple few rides.
#8
Senior Member
Join Date: Sep 2004
Posts: 1,677
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 0 Times
in
0 Posts
In general a 25mm tire will have lower rolling resistance than a 23mm tire. The reason is the contact patch is not as "long" and therefore the tire deforms less.
The Continentals are probably a significantly worse rolling tire than your Michelins. Most continental tires tested with fairly high rolling resistance prior to Conti using black chili, now they are more middle of the line. If you look at the chart I linked to below, the 23 version of the Ultra Sports is about 5 watts slower rolling than GP4000s and Michelin Pro Race 3s PER tire. Which is definitely something a person could feel.
I find Bontrager's lower end tires roll fairly well without being prone to flatting and come in 25 widths.
Here is a very comprehensive set of rolling resistance data, look to the column of crr - which means coefficient of rolling resistance, lower is better. (Also, keep in mind the person collecting the data is doing so for the purposes of time trialing mostly, but also as a service to people and companies. So while a .00300 tire may seem like a "high" rolling resistance, it's quite reasonable for a day in day out training tire) :
https://www.biketechreview.com/tires_...sting_rev9.pdf
Al, who does the above testing, is a very competent tester of tires. He uses a powermeter which he checks calibration on, accounts for changes in temperature and pumps them up to the same pressure every time.
The Continentals are probably a significantly worse rolling tire than your Michelins. Most continental tires tested with fairly high rolling resistance prior to Conti using black chili, now they are more middle of the line. If you look at the chart I linked to below, the 23 version of the Ultra Sports is about 5 watts slower rolling than GP4000s and Michelin Pro Race 3s PER tire. Which is definitely something a person could feel.
I find Bontrager's lower end tires roll fairly well without being prone to flatting and come in 25 widths.
Here is a very comprehensive set of rolling resistance data, look to the column of crr - which means coefficient of rolling resistance, lower is better. (Also, keep in mind the person collecting the data is doing so for the purposes of time trialing mostly, but also as a service to people and companies. So while a .00300 tire may seem like a "high" rolling resistance, it's quite reasonable for a day in day out training tire) :
https://www.biketechreview.com/tires_...sting_rev9.pdf
Al, who does the above testing, is a very competent tester of tires. He uses a powermeter which he checks calibration on, accounts for changes in temperature and pumps them up to the same pressure every time.
#9
Chases Dogs for Sport
#10
Senior Member
Join Date: Jul 2002
Location: Sacramento, California, USA
Posts: 40,865
Bikes: Specialized Tarmac, Canyon Exceed, Specialized Transition, Ellsworth Roots, Ridley Excalibur
Mentioned: 68 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 2952 Post(s)
Liked 3,106 Times
in
1,417 Posts
I like the Conti GP4000 in 25mm. I have a set on my FG and they have a nice feel.
#11
Making a kilometer blurry
In general a 25mm tire will have lower rolling resistance than a 23mm tire. The reason is the contact patch is not as "long" and therefore the tire deforms less.
The Continentals are probably a significantly worse rolling tire than your Michelins. Most continental tires tested with fairly high rolling resistance prior to Conti using black chili, now they are more middle of the line. If you look at the chart I linked to below, the 23 version of the Ultra Sports is about 5 watts slower rolling than GP4000s and Michelin Pro Race 3s PER tire. Which is definitely something a person could feel.
I find Bontrager's lower end tires roll fairly well without being prone to flatting and come in 25 widths.
Here is a very comprehensive set of rolling resistance data, look to the column of crr - which means coefficient of rolling resistance, lower is better. (Also, keep in mind the person collecting the data is doing so for the purposes of time trialing mostly, but also as a service to people and companies. So while a .00300 tire may seem like a "high" rolling resistance, it's quite reasonable for a day in day out training tire) :
https://www.biketechreview.com/tires_...sting_rev9.pdf
Al, who does the above testing, is a very competent tester of tires. He uses a powermeter which he checks calibration on, accounts for changes in temperature and pumps them up to the same pressure every time.
The Continentals are probably a significantly worse rolling tire than your Michelins. Most continental tires tested with fairly high rolling resistance prior to Conti using black chili, now they are more middle of the line. If you look at the chart I linked to below, the 23 version of the Ultra Sports is about 5 watts slower rolling than GP4000s and Michelin Pro Race 3s PER tire. Which is definitely something a person could feel.
I find Bontrager's lower end tires roll fairly well without being prone to flatting and come in 25 widths.
Here is a very comprehensive set of rolling resistance data, look to the column of crr - which means coefficient of rolling resistance, lower is better. (Also, keep in mind the person collecting the data is doing so for the purposes of time trialing mostly, but also as a service to people and companies. So while a .00300 tire may seem like a "high" rolling resistance, it's quite reasonable for a day in day out training tire) :
https://www.biketechreview.com/tires_...sting_rev9.pdf
Al, who does the above testing, is a very competent tester of tires. He uses a powermeter which he checks calibration on, accounts for changes in temperature and pumps them up to the same pressure every time.
#12
Senior Member
Join Date: Jul 2002
Location: Sacramento, California, USA
Posts: 40,865
Bikes: Specialized Tarmac, Canyon Exceed, Specialized Transition, Ellsworth Roots, Ridley Excalibur
Mentioned: 68 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 2952 Post(s)
Liked 3,106 Times
in
1,417 Posts
I thought that was the point of fatter tires. I'll pump my 25s to 85-95 and it's like a Town Car in comparison to 23s at 120.
#13
Senior Member
Join Date: Sep 2004
Posts: 1,677
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 0 Times
in
0 Posts
Well, that's the key there. 25s are rated at a lower psi than 23s. When you inflate to a given tire's max/recommended psi, the 23s are usually a touch lower crr. That makes a difference because a 25 will blow off the rim before a 23 at higher pressures because of the increased surface area straining against the same bead contact area/hook strength.
So, there are two ways you can increase rolling resistance:
The first, is to run a pressure so low which allows for additional hysteresis in between the tube, tire and road.
The second, and more consequential form of rolling resistance, is the speed lost to surface irregularities with a tire pressure which can not deform to road surface changes. By running too high of a tire pressure, you are in effect "bouncing" over the road and not letting the tires do their job of shock absorption.
Typically for a perfect balance between the two forms of rolling resistance you should be nowhere near a tire's max PSI. For many riders, you should be in the 100-110psi range. Such that your tire can deform to road irregularities but that you don't have a significant loss of hysteresis between the tube/tire/road interface.
Most rolling resistance data shows that a wider tire rolls faster even in a laboratory sense. And additionally, most on road tire testing shows that above 120psi a person sees significant loss on any road that is less than ideal.
It is counter intuitive that 25mm tires pumped to a moderate pressure roll faster than 20mm tires pumped to their gills, but it's not opinion. It's data.
#14
Senior Member
Join Date: Sep 2008
Posts: 598
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 0 Times
in
0 Posts
#15
Banned.
Join Date: May 2010
Location: Uncertain
Posts: 8,651
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 2 Times
in
2 Posts
Wider tyres roll better but are, obviously, heavier and less aerodynamic. However, unless your "feel" is much more sensitive than mine, I defy you to find a 25 conti 4000 or schwalbe ultremo "sluggish".
#16
Senior Member
Join Date: Sep 2004
Posts: 1,677
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 0 Times
in
0 Posts
Well the data I've linked to is for the first type of rolling resistance, hysteresis losses between tube/tire/road. And yes, higher pressure yields lower crr on rollers.
What the link doesn't address is losses from varied surfaces.
Below you'll see a graph from some testing, though not completely dispositive of the issue, it shows the trend I've seen in the past:
https://www.slowtwitch.com/articles/i...ium_tires3.jpg
What the link doesn't address is losses from varied surfaces.
Below you'll see a graph from some testing, though not completely dispositive of the issue, it shows the trend I've seen in the past:
https://www.slowtwitch.com/articles/i...ium_tires3.jpg
#17
Senior Member
Join Date: Sep 2004
Posts: 1,677
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 0 Times
in
0 Posts
Also, I believe Schwalbe used to have on road data. Members over at biketechreview.com have done some testing. Al(collector of first data set) tried working with a "bumpy" roller but it never seemed to work the way he wanted.