bikerjp

I've read enough posts here to know this is a somewhat contentious issue, but I'm hoping a few people can comment helpfully. Not trying to start a max HR debate. Just looking for some input from people "similar" to me - middle age, a bit overweight, and so so conditioning.

I started using a HR monitor and noticed that when on a long, steep climb I tend to bail when my HR hits about 180. I don't know if I can go higher or not. At about 180 I'm feeling the pain and am a bit worried about going higher at my age (43) so I chose 182 as my max HR for calculating zones using the ride with gps health info page. My resting HR is 60. Based on this info I get the following zones:

Zone 2 - 133 - 145 (fat burning)
Zone 3 - 145 - 158 (endurance)
Zone 4 - 158 - 170 (hard core training)
Zone 5 - 170 - 182 (max effort)

If I understand anaerobic training, it's a zone that is hard to maintain for any length of time. However, what I've noticed is that I tend to spend most of my ride in the 165 range which based on the above numbers is anaerobic. I'm not trying to do that. It's just my comfort zone for riding. It goes up and down some depending on terrain but "on average" I'm in the 160s.

I'm mainly doing this to get in shape (cardio) and lose weight. If these zones actually mean anything, then I should be riding at a lower level but that isn't my "comfort zone". Maybe my max is much higher or something but it would have to 195-200 for the math to work and that seems ridiculous at my age, weight and general level of conditioning.

Short question - do these zones mean anything? Am I not burning fat if my HR is 160s?
Long question - if these zones do mean something and they are accurate, what happens if most of my rides I'm in an anaerobic zone? Or is that even possible so they don't mean anything?

Thanks.

EDIT: I know, just ride. But I would like to know if there is a better way. Should I back off to burn fat? That kind of thing.

Grumpy McTrumpy

forget the "max HR calculations"

you need to figure out your lactate threshold heart rate and base your zones from that.

I am 42 and on hot days in a TT have done more than 30 minutes at 185 or so. I have seen 195.

echappist

No. Google Friel (or do a search on BF for Friel). His Lactate threshold HR training zones will come up. Read it

Chances are, the MHR you know is no the true MHR, which is why you can actually ride in an "anaerobic" zone for such a long time. Real anaerobic efforts is about 5 minutes & you get shelled.

Beaker

Not sure I can answer your questions definitively, but I'll wager that you're underestimating your Max HR, it's tough to spend a long time in z5 without knowing about it. The simplest way to describe the difference between z4 and z5, when you cross your lactate threshold is that you will fatigue much more rapidly once you're over your lactate threshold heart rate, start breathing much more heavily etc, whereas the top of z4 is hard work but you are at a lactate equilibrium and therefore be working at a much more sustainable level.

I'm not sure I understand when you wrote "At about 180 I'm feeling the pain and am a bit worried about going higher at my age (43) so I chose 182 as my max HR " - if you're genuinely having some chest pain, then consider getting checked out by your doctor just to be safe. Age shouldn't be considered a factor - I'm 39 and I've seen 203 a couple of times.

Edit - agreed with Mcjimbo, I'm using the Friel zones too.

pacificaslim

FWIW, I'm 42 and my heart rate on rides seems similar to yours. I've seen 190+ at the end of runs (an all-out kick at the end of a 5k for example) and my rides (lots of climbing) always average out in the 160-170 bpm and I can do that for hours no problem and running 7min mile pace for a few miles will get me into the 170s too, but I don't feel particularly stressed by that.

There is a tremendous variation in heart rates so I don't know if any anecdotes from people really tell us anything useful.

bikerjp

Thanks for the quick responses. My point about "feeling the pain" is that when climbing steep sections I begin to run out of steam, my muscles are burning and I feel I can't go any further so I stop and let my HR drop a bit. Maybe climbing isn't a good indicator, but I don't think I can push 180+ for more than 20-30 seconds. Maybe I am underestimating, but I don't really want to push much higher than that until I feel I'm in better shape. I'm trying to use the data I have to find my zone. Or maybe the fact that I can ride in that 160s zone for long periods means that is my aerobic zone.

hhnngg1

You might be right about needing to get into better shape to get a good test of your training HR zones. When I'm out of shape, I can't do my Z4 or 5 for long at all, whereas, my ability to hold there goes up a LOT after even 2 weeks of training.

HR is totally individualized. I hit my red zone at 178 when I'm in shape, and that's doing 30mph on a flat. Feels like I'm going to die.

My buddy who's an Ironman is much slower than me on the bike, but even though we're the same age, he's nearly 190-200 for his red zone, at 25-26mph.

bikerjp

After some quick Googling I find that I can find my LT by doing a 30 min TT and looking at my average HR over the last 20 mins. My doctor mentioned this as well. This is supposed to be going "all out" for 30 minutes. I seriously doubt I can go all out at a HR above 180 for 30 mins. Maybe I can give it a try on the trainer and see. Anyway, assuming I could do 180s for 30 mins, then according to the Friel calculator the 160s I tend to ride at are in the "tempo" and "endurance" zones. Not sure what tempo is, but maybe I am riding in the "right" zones to get in shape and burn fat. Or is that still too high to burn fat?

Grumpy McTrumpy

they all burn fat. if you spend too much time at threshold it also burns YOU


out.

so it's better to do more riding at endurance pace since you will spend more time fatburning and less time recovering.

bikerjp

Good to know. When I first started getting into shape this summer I tended to ride in the 140s on average and seemed to burn a lot of fat in that I lost a fair bit of weight. Now I tend to ride with a higher HR (maybe in better shape now) but not losing much more weight. Granted, I have less to lose now, but certainly still some there. Was concerned that I was moving out of the fat burning range. Thanks for the info. I'll just keep it up and see what happens. Certainly don't want to burn me up though into a pile of ash like your sig

bikerjp

Thanks for the concern. It's not chest pain but legs feeling the burn. I am concerned about pushing my HR too high though and finding the "chest pain" zone. Not looking for that one

gregf83 

Have you ever had chest pain? If your heart is healthy you don't have to worry about going over some arbitrary maxHR. Your legs and other systems will naturally limit your HR. That being said, you don't need to push these limits if you're just trying to lose weight and gain fitness.

RacerOne

You may find the slow down in weight loss is due to higher food consumption due to hunger after your workouts. Riding too hard is not going to stop you from burning fat in the long run. First rule in weight loss is limit caloric intake, not increased exercise.

bikerjp

Thanks for all the helpful feedback. I guess the main thing to take from this is that the various training calculators out there are not all that useful. An average HR of 165 is not likely to be in the anaerobic zone for me so probably nothing to worry about.

I'm beginning to think that for anyone not trying to be a competitive athlete, just paying attention to how you "feel" when working out is probably as good an indicator as any formula and maybe better. If I'm working hard, sweating, the heart rate is up and I feel like I can keep it at that pace for a while I'm probably in the aerobic zone. When I feel like I'm about to die, that's anaerobic.

kleinboogie

Agree with two points; you're always burning fat and weight loss comes from calorie deficits not exercise. Exercise just helps prevent weight gain but by far, limiting what and how much food you eat will help you lose weight. Anaerobic is just oxygen starvation meaning your muscles want more oxygen than your body can absorb and transport to them. Your aerobic system is still cranking along. GL

bikerjp

But exercise it what enables one to have a caloric deficit. The other option is to "go on a diet" and those generally fail. You cut out 500 calories a day and eventually your body adjusts to this new energy level and you stop losing weight and then you end up eating more because you can't maintain the 500 calorie deficit and so you gain it back. Of course, if your normal diet consists of junk food and soda then the first step would be eating healthier, but exercise is an important element.

I have lost about 25lbs since July by exercising alone. I didn't change my diet at all. I was already eating a generally healthy diet. In fact, I may have been eating even more than before, but burning an extra 4-5000 calories a week riding is what helped me lose because it helped me have that caloric deficit while also raising my metabolic rate allowing me to burn calories at a higher rate even when not exercising. I've slowed down a lot on the exercise with winter but haven't gained any weight yet.

I really don't understand where this idea of exercise not being useful to lose weight comes from - maybe all the fad diet book peddlers. Burning more calories than you consume leads to weight loss. Exercise burns calories.

hhnngg1

Last point - if you're going to train with a HRM, it's helpful to have one (like Garmin) that can record the amount of time spent in a zone.

I find that folks tend to greatly overestimate the time they're in their "suffer-zone" (Z4/5), mainly because it's so memorable.

I've been on 4hr rides with 6000 ft of climbing where I felt like I was Z4/5 for at least 3 hours, but in reality, it's usually close to 60 minutes total at Z4, and much less at Z5, with most of my ride at Z3 and a surprising amount (like over a third) at Z1-2 due to downhills.

Do the all-out 30 min or similar duration TT test and test your HR. Repeat it until you can do it pretty strongly without a big dropoff in the end in effort. That's a good number to start with.

bikerjp

Good point. Thanks. I've been thinking of picking up an Edge 500. I'll check to see if it does the zone thing.

bikerjp

duplicate.

Drew Eckhardt 

The Edge 500 user interface does not report time-in-zone, but it has a mini-USB port on the back and looks like a storage device so you can plug it into your computer, copy the .fit file containing all of the speed/power/heart rate/elevation/GPS details of your ride, and feed it to software like Golden Cheetah which will give you that information for that ride, day, etc.

Golden Cheetah is free, and runs on Windows, Linux, and Mac OS.

loreley

While you are correct, exercise is an important and meaningful part of weight loss, the most important factor is still your DIET. Notice, I didn't say, "go on a diet," but watch what you eat. And when I say "watch," I mean write down every single thing that goes into your mouth. Most people are really underestimating how much they eat and overestimating how many calories they burn whilst exercising.

echappist

The best software free.99 can buy. You can even manage training cycles with it if you so desire.
+1. Went from 159-151lbs by doing basically this.

merlin55

ride longer at a easier pace to get fit and lose weight...at age 50 I wanted to ride the Triple Bypass in Colorado...a one day 120 miles, 10,000 of climbing, all at between 7000 and 12000 feet of elevation. I stopped doing 2.5 hour 45 mile rides at 145 to 165 pulse, and worked up to 5 hour 130 to 140 pulse rides. After 3 months, I had lost weight and was actually much stronger and faster than in many years...did the Triple in 8.5 hours

JoelS

I actually did get really close to my true max HR one day. I was climbing a steep (as in 14-18%) hill of something like 2 1/2 miles. At one point my peripheral vision was gone, just black. I literally started seeing stars. The 'hole' I could see through got smaller and smaller until I was just on the verge of passing out. I stopped then and my HR was 193. I figure if it went up 2 more bpm, I would have passed out.

I had to stop for about 30 minutes to recover before I could get going again.

Spiduhman

Max for that moment, that day Joel, but why push it? You might hit that rate with some to spare another day... but why push it?



Lactate threshold, the exercise intesity (work load; wattage; speed, which is o.k. in swimming, not so good for cycling - variables...) at which lactate begins to accumulate in the bloodstream.

Given that we're not rolling with blood labs, and many of us don't have powerhubs, we'll have to approximate.

LT heart rate is, at best, an approximation. What's helpful, imo, is understanding the principle(s) involved, and applying them.

Raise that threshold on up...