IdleUp

One of my goals this year was to be able to climb a little faster from what I used to. Currently, I can definitely climb, but usually at a snail pace. With this, I often get dropped on group/friend rides on sustained climb. Not a big deal as my friends always wait and regroup at the top of every hill.

As many have said, to climb better, you have to climb more which I am currently doing with minimal progress. This is where I needed some recommendation on how to best structure a training on hill climbing.

From where I live, I have very nice hill that I like to climb on any given day. It is about 8 miles long, with a max of 20% grade and an average of about 5% grade throughout the 8 mile course for a total of 2000 feet elevation.

What I do currently is just go up for 8 miles, and come down and call it a day. It takes me more than an hour to get to the summit. Which kinda tell that my average speed is less than 8mph. Sometimes, my speed dips to about 3-5mph on steep sections. By the time I reached the Summit, my legs are toast. Should I break up the miles and have different goals for each segment on different days?

If you were me, how would you use this hill to train?

IcySmooth52

I don't know the anatomy as well as others, but I've found little tricks that help me.

-Pull up more the back part of the stroke than you push down.
-If there's a hill you're going down before the one you go up, keep your inertia going by keeping the pace up at the bottom and as you go up.
-When it get's real slow, imagine a rope attached to something ~25 feet from you and you're using your arms to help pull yourself up. (Especially on the 20% grade)

ericm979

Which climb is that? I live in the area.

Try intervals- go as fast as you can for 20 minutes, then take a break, then try it again.

Another work out is "sweet spot" training. There you go at 90% of your threshold power (threshold power is what you could do for an hour if you were trying to go as fast as possible for the hour). The advantage of SST is that you get many of the benefits of threshold training (what those 20 minute intervals are) but it doesn't take as much out of you. So you can do more of it.

I use a power meter for these but you can approximate by going at the pace that would get you your best time up a 2 hour climb- just a little bit slower than the all out for an hour pace. If you are using a HRM then you should see the HR gradually go up over the SST interval, due to cardiac drift.

Both of these types of training will increase your threshold power. Normally on long climbs you're sub threshold, but the higher your threshold is, the more power you can put out at that sub threshold level, and the faster you climb.

jbholcom

Do you stand up some during your climb or sit? This can make a difference if you try to stand up more. When I'm tired I find myself sitting more and I have to force myself to stand up. It helps.

Most importantly, be proud of your accomplishments. Not many people wouldn't even attempt what you are doing.

abstractform20

i know a guy that eats tainted meat (not what it sounds like, eh)

IdleUp

The climb is at Calaveras Rd, from Piedmont to top of Sierra Rd. I do not have a power meter yet, and don't think i will have anytime soon. How can I estimate this using an HRM? It seems like I go anaerobic too early, even at the slowest speed.

IdleUp

Thanks. I do try to stand up even though my legs were saying not to, especially on the steepest part where I couldn't turn over the cranks sitting down.

zkgiant

Good comments. Only thing I'd add is that climbing is mostly about power to weight ratio. In other words, if you can lose a few lbs and maintain or improve your strength/fitness you WILL climb better. Good technique will only take you so far.

cyclezen

HRM
that's what I have and use...
find your AT/LT (using the test in the train/nutrition forum).
Like Ericm979 says, intervals are always a good training tool, and they work on climbing also. But they hurt.
And 20 minutes is WAAAYYYYY too long for me.
My Hill Climb Tuesday - is my idea of religion
I do 5 min., trying to keep the HR at about 95% near AT, then I back off until the heart rate steadys down around 65-70%, then again. I rarely get in more than 4-5 intervals before I've shot my wad...
Gearing during intervals - use a gear I can spin no less than 70 and never much more than 80 rpm (I don;t climb well at rpms higher than low 80's - more ullrich, less pantani for me...)
Power training - no intervals - I ride easy for about the 1st .5 mile. Then I go into a bigger gear, usually low 50's inch for the 7.5% gradient climb I use - muscle up for about 2 miles. Frequent alternation between seated and standing. On days I feel good, I do 2 repeats for a total of 7mi (2400 ft), if I feel great I do a 3peat climb or 11 mi (3600 ft) climbing. Very easy recovery ride next day...

On days I feel like crap, I do one climb, easy gear, no expectations, everyone passes me... Feel a ton better at the top - the view is incredible, and the descent is always the best! a total rip.

all this has huge benes for my performance on the flat as well.

neneboricua

For me, it was all about technique and knowing how hard you can go and for how long. I learned the technique from a climbing DVD. I was already a decently good climber but before I got the DVD's I would just ride the same hilly route once or twice a week. I found that progress was was very, very slow. When snow started to accumulate on the ground last winter, I bought a couple of DVD's to train indoors while the snow melted. It was CTS Climbing I & II. The videos are good and kept me training during the bad weather spell.

The main thing I got from the videos was how pace myself and how to structure climbing interval workouts. Also extremely important is to RELAX YOUR UPPER BODY! You'll find you get less tired when you relax everything above your legs. The video also explained how to do low cadence and high cadence climbing intervals. I definately think I got stronger from the DVD workouts and now I apply the same knowledge when I'm out on the road. Before I got the DVD, my best time on my favorite local hill was 8:20. After a couple of weeks of riding indoors and then 2-3 more weeks of applying what I'd learned on that local hill, my time has improved to 6:15. I also managed to knock almost 10 minutes off of a ~2 hour hilly ride that I do regularly that includes this particular hill.

For me, the trick was to keep my cadence in the low 60's while keeping my heart rate at or below my lactate threshold on the steep sections and in the 80-90 range on the gentler sections. This allows your muscles to recover on the gentler sections (if there are any) while still putting out almost the same power.

You can get better by just "climbing more" but learning technique and pacing will definitely help you make quicker progress.

neneboricua

echappist

i disagree with the sentiment in the first sentence. You climb better when you have higher threshold power. Gravity forces you to do a lot more work, and a low threshold means that you'll dip into anaerobic mode, thus giving you a very finite amount of time before you blow up.

If i were you, i'd forget about group rides as they are for social, not training purposes. Lay a solid foundation of base miles (Z2 endurance, tempo, and subthreshold) but give yourself a recovery week every fourth week. 12 weeks later, add some threshold intervals to your training for about twice a week. All of this will boost your power at threshold and allow you to climb better.

All the other things such as cadence and techniques will help, but none as much as having a higher threshold. Building threshold is a tough, time consuming proposition, but if it were easy everyone would be good at time trialling and climbing. Speaking for myself, i've had a hard time upping my threshold power for quite a while (even started a thread on this two months back), but the long Z2 rides really do help.

DropDeadFred

EPO

or HTFU

hit the hill harder everytime...i usually hit them till i burn out then go at a snails pace...ive noticed that week after week my burnout point is higher and higher up the hill and instead of slowing down to 8mph and a steep climb the last time i rode it my lowest drop was to 13...it's working so far, I'm sure I'll be able to hit that hill hard soon enough all the way to the top! I real good thing for me has also been to fixate on an object and make that your goal, when you reach it fixate on the next object (road signs are good)

achoo

IMO the only way to get better at climbing is to climb more.

I think I've managed to get myself into the, "He doesn't suck as bad as he used to." stage of climbing.

The other stuff helps - intervals, SST, (EPO...) but when push comes to shove you still have to haul your behind up that grade

DropDeadFred

and climb with somebody! preferably a better climber...you'll be surprised how much it helps motivate you to actually chase somebody.

fatslowbiker

this. wait at the bottom of the hill for unsuspecting riders. give them a bit of a leash, and then chase them up.

strava is also good for a virtual competition

there are no shortcuts...climb a lot and push yourself every time.

GDA

Last summer to continue to improve my climbing I started doing one ride a week that was mostly interval type hill work on my full suspension mt bike. Being almost 10lb heavier than my road bikes and also less efficient due to full suspension design, it makes hill work ever more difficult. I noticed over the ensuing months that hills just didn't seem as hard (probably all mental placebo) and my strength improved.

Intervals work really well as said previously.

hhnngg1

The single best thing you can do to improve your hillclimb is to extend your long hillclimb rides. You live near some of the best cycling areas on Earth replete with mountains - you should be a monster hill climber with access to those hills, provided you push your limits.

Go on some group rides that 'scare' you a bit, in that they're longer than what you're used to. Be prepared, know the way home roughly if you get dropped, but don't give up.

It is not unusual for a good Norcal recreational nonracing hill climbing cyclist to do a 4-6 hour ride with 5000ft-7000ft of climbing over 50 miles EVERY WEEK, as well as additional cycling every day on top of that. (I just rode 4 hr ride with 4000+ft of climbing with 5 retired guys at age 65-72 who were killing it, and they do this.)

Your hill is a greaty place to do intervals and time trials, but you're going to want a longer route to force you to get used to epic long conditioning rides. Target a 4-5 hour ride with 4000+ ft of climbing in the next few months, and you'll improve a lot.

Dirt-Eater

I ride Sierra Road 2-3X a week from San Jose side. I usually do a loop from Sierra to Calaveras twice a week and do hill repeats once a week at the first steep part of the climb. I've improved my time from 50 mins to 33 mins, working on breaking the 30 min mark

IdleUp

Is this from the base of Sierra and Piedmont all the the way to top before you make the first left turn or shorter than that?

IdleUp

This is so true around here. I was once riding up Kings Mtn with some of my retired friends (i'm much younger than them), I was already struggling and here they are doing double-backs, circling around me to check if I'm still OK.

ericm979

You can't use an HRM to set your pace for SST intervals. Like I said, at a constant power your HR will rise due to cardiac drift.

You are not going anaerobic at the start if the climb if ou can keep the same pace up for the rest of the climb. Anaerobic is short term, like sprinting the last 200 meters of a race. But if you think you're going too hard at the beginning, then go a little slower. Except that first part of Sierra. That's going to be rough no matter what.

For intervals aimed at building threshold power I like long steady grades that aren't too steep. Like in the 5-8% range. When the grade is changing (like Sierra does) it's more difficult to maintain a steady effort. Going over threshold will make the interval much harder, so you want to avoid it as much as possible.

hhnngg1

???!

You're on the wrong group ride. Yes, many are social, but many are great hammerfest opportunities when you hit the climbs. THere are no less than 3 recreational bike clubs in the San Jose area , and over 10 if you include racing clubs. Those are hands down the best way to explore hills that you've never found on your own.

I've DEFINITELY ridden way harder, longer, and faster, chasing down guys stronger than me than I would solo around here.

Also, while you can get very planned with zone-type/power training, unless you're already riding a lot and plateauing, you can get TONS better by just riding a lot of hills. Forget pacing evenly, etc. - just go as hard as you can as long as you can on the climbs, and after a few of these sessions, you'll see yourself pacing much better and also improving a lot.

Those 4+ hr climbfests are really, really key for good climbing. Not to be underestimated.

BarryJo

Using the search function:

Advanced search
Keyword "climbing"
Forum "Road Cycling"
"search"
There are 12 pages of threads on this very subject that are 6 months or older-
but I can't find the one post by the guy from Arizona who explained it so simply.
These are some of the better ones. ericm979 gives a lot of good advice in a lot of these:

https://www.bikeforums.net/showthread...light=climbing
https://www.bikeforums.net/showthread...light=climbing
https://www.bikeforums.net/showthread...light=climbing
https://www.bikeforums.net/showthread...light=climbing

IdleUp

Would a trip to Mt. Hamilton better suited for this since it is more consistent and long? If not any suggestions around here?

echappist

don't get me wrong, hammering rides are great for race simulation, but it's just that: a simulated race. If you don't have a high enough threshold coming in, you'll still gain some fitness, but the question is what type. Racers race to become stronger because normal training doesn't provide all the necessary stimuli needed. In other words, it is for working on the high end, highly anaerobic efforts that are encountered in races. At the same time, most racers realize that after a period of hard racing, they need to back off and rebuild base less they over reach. Most of us realize that when we start VO2 max intervals, all other power measures go up, but we also realize that a clock starts ticking down to when we need to back off.

And that is the main caveat of going hard as you can and doing hammering rides as the gains are ephemeral, and sooner or later you'll plateau and begin to over-reach. When that happens, most of the gains will be lost and a rider is likely to go into cycles of over reaching. The gains from Z2 up to subthreshold are money-in-the-bank, lasting gains.