catmandew52

Just type in BB30 in the search box above. There are six pages of BB30 threads just here on BF.
Well over a thousand posts on a dozen other world wide cycling forums.
As far as I am concerned it was a solution looking for a problem.
By mounting the bearings as close to the crank arms as possible it reduces the loading on the bearings, which should lead to longer bearing life.
Its only advantage IMO, is for a manufacturer to reduce production cost. BB shell does not require threading, reduced assembly time, fewer parts. But, if tolerances are not perfect, you get creaking, noise and reduced bearing life. previous thread https://www.bikeforums.net/showthread...BB+30+creaking
Campag4life is a staunch supporter of BB30, and thats OK. Some people don't have any problems with their BB30 equipped bikes, others have problems right out of the gate.
A former co-worker of mine loves Cannondales and would not even consider any other brand bikes, unless it's to flip. He was about to trade one of his older Cannondales for a relatively new one with a BB30 and was tickled pink about the upgrade of this trade. I showed him a few of the threads here and told him to wait until he could test ride it(he was going to just do a quick trade on the fly because he was pressed for time that day).
I talked to him about a week later to see how it went and he thanked me for showing him these threads.
Owner admitted he had returned to the dealer a half dozen times over the creaking noises and had finally just given up.
Co-worker did not make the trade.

Campag4life

Yeah cat there are two schools to be sure. A fair amount of people struggle with it. I laugh when I hear that a BB30 bike is returned to a bike shop repeatedly and can't be made quiet. Two bores, two bearings, loctite and a crank with a lateral spring aka wave washer. Now that's complicated...lol. A BB30 can't make noise if properly set up. Two of the bikes shops in my town can't adjust a derailleur let alone understand the nuances of BB30 or PF30...or the difference the crank makes in set up. Also Campy UT + BB30 or PF30 is a bad match although Campy sells cups to convert them...but still not a good design mix.

One way of looking at is...if an owner can't set up his BB30 to be quiet than he deserves to live with the noise or buy a lesser frameset with a threaded BB. Look at it as a litmus test or discriminator of sorts that will keep the worlds apart. That way guys who like BB30 can ride and appreciate them and guys who can't set them up to be quiet can live with their threaded BB and heavier crank. I agree that the weight and stiffness difference doesn't mean much at all. I will also add, I still like a threaded BB. I just don't hate on BB30 or PF30 as some do.

dnuzzomueller

No I have not used loctite on either bike, in fact I haven't done anything other then clean the BB shell and removed the lock rings to clean their grooves. Other then that no grease during installation, no loctite, nuthin.

A funny note is that the last time I installed bearings on my Redline was because I was using an old set of BB30 bearings that must have gotten crap into the cartridge, one of the bearings was quite rough when I turned it (After removing the crank of course) and the other side was practically frozen. The bearings had not caused ANY sounds at all, they had just gotten stiff. While installing the new set of bearing I ended up pushing one in at a slight angle and sort of shaved the BB shell a little on accident, I corrected this an installed the bearings correctly and wondered if maybe I would pay for that mistake later.

Long and the short of it was, no. things are still dead quiet even when I botched the installation a bit.

My feeling is that creaking is caused by a bad BB shell. So if you machine it to a crappy tolerance then you get issues.

rbart4506

Must you be so arrogant?? Wow....

BTW I'm riding a 2010 Tarmac Expert with a threaded BB, I highly doubt moving to a 2012 Tarmac Expert with a PF-30 will make a lick of beans in my performance...

Campag4life

Here's the thing. Trek spec'ed...not sure if 2012 Madones are this way...a 'slip fit' aka drop in for bearings. If you use the analogy of a headset...most headsets use a slip fit/drop in cartridge bearings and sustain much higher axial loads than a BB...then there is no problem with even slip fit bearings IF...there is adequate preload which pressurizes inner races against balls against outer races firmly bedding them.
The reason why Specialized spec's both loctite and a press is because this makes BB's typically quieter if the installer isn't as vigilant about dialing in preload. Provided bearings are in good shape...clicking BB30 bearings are no different than riding around with your headset loose...it will rattle and knock over bumps as the bearings loose their seat and balls lose their preload to inner and outer races. A bearing is like a rattle or a tambourine without preload.

catmandew52

Campag, you do come off as a bit over the top in your support for BB30.
You blame the owner/riders for their lack of understanding or mechanical ineptitude.
Maybe some of these owners with BB30 equipped bikes wouldn't know which end of an open end adjustable wrench is the working end. They must rely on the mechanics at the bike shops.
I don't know the skill level of every bike mechanic in my area let alone the contiguous 48 states.
I do know, that about the only thing they do have to when they uncrate a new bike, is to put the front wheel and handlebars on, screw in the pedals and check the brakes and shifters for proper function. The crankset is already in the frame from the factory.
So, from what I have read here and on other forums, why do some (not all) owners have creaking, crunching, noises and or bearing failures in the first 500 miles or less with a BB30 equipped bike.
External bearing bottoms brackets seem to be the current and probably future standard for most medium to high end bikes, as evidenced by the ever increasing number of different BB numbers.
Shimano has their version, Campy has theirs, Hollowtech and Gigapipe, whatever. By Xmas there will probably be another handful of alternatives available. I see very few complaints about other style/number bottom brackets and those usually have have to do with crankset compatability.
I do not know which of the three dealers in this area the Cannondale my co-worker wanted to swap for was purchased at. The newest one has only been around since 1998. I don't know if they offered or if the original owner even asked to have it sent back to Cannondale to have it looked at. I also don't know the time period involved in the six returns for the same problem. The owner told my co-worker (after the test ride) that everytime time he took it back, it was okay for awhile and then the noises would return. Apparently he was not in the least mechanically inclined and had to rely on the dealer. The point is, it should not be a recuring problem over a resonable time period or mileage. BB30 really has not been around that long if you want to look at bicycle history, and it doesn't seem to be getting general acceptence in many quarters(5 end users?). There probably would not be as many other/newer alternatives to BB30 if it was the be all, end all that you seem to believe it is.
Granted, there are many owners of bikes here on BF and on other forums who seem to have no problems at all and love the simplicity of BB30 and also self maintain. So, I guess my real question is, what percentage of BB30 equipped bikes that don't meet spec are the manfacturers shipping? It must be more than 10% or we would not have these recurring BB30 threads.
Also, if you really read the warranty for the BB30 that FSA offers, it appears that they exempt themselves from any responsibility if you so much as sneeze on it. Why?

ruindd

I think he meant that BB shells were standardized. 86mm shells are pretty standard, with the exception of the new BB30 craze.

khill

Very happy with both my Cannondale BB30s setups...however, this is only once I got rid of the Ceramic bearings and went to FSA BB30 bearings..zero issues with both bikes since setting them up this way.

TheHen

Alright! That would just about double my power.

Kind of Blued

I see what you're getting at. I use stock Shimano 105 SPD pedals. After a bit of searching, I'm not sure how they compare to others, but I have considered putting a washer between my crank arm and pedal. My fitter said I'm biomechanically-inclined toward a narrower Q-factor though, so that wouldn't be ideal even if the new angle does fix my knees.

I have a GXP BB lying around, so if I can get some evidence of greater ankle clearance on GXP cranksets, I might go that way. It's no BB30, but the next cheapest fix would be a new frame.

I might start a thread on GXP in comparison to my Powerspline junk with some photos in order to avoid derailing this thread.

Campag4life

In response to your question above...the simple answer has been and still is set up. I would say the no. of defective BB30 bonefide warranty issues is less than 1% if that...no different than other products out there...like guys who return their Ipod shuffle because they can't figure out how to program it which is harder than setting up a BB30 if you know what you are doing or have a technical background.
So where does the other 9% to use your 10% number which I believe is high come from? Set up...both from the factory and if a bike shop were to install the crank....or misdiagnosed creaking...from pedals or chainrings or seat post etc.

I have been trying to think of an automotive analogy for BB30. Only thing I can come up with is...mechanical versus hydraullic lifters. Can the average guy who owned a solid lifter Corvette in the late 60's adjust them properly? Probably not. Is it hard? I never a problem. Do most performance guys appreciate solid lifters? Many do but some don't think the set up is worth the extra 1K RPM without valve float. Why do hydraullic lifters exist even though you can't turn the same RPM as you can with hydraullic lifters? Low servicablility and lesser degree noise. This maybe a bit of a clumsy analogy...by like solid lifters, BB30 is simple. As to defects?...what can be defective? Bores? With loctite that can sustain...not just a press or even a slip fit...but oversize or worn bores without issue. Bearings?...they are garden variety #6806 bearings and available in number of different grades and cheap. BB30 cranks have never been simplier...many with a one piece spindle. But just like solid lifters...if set up is too loose, they are going to make noise. So even though the motorcycle community embraces solid lifters for the added performance, motorcycle owners accept that periodic maintenance will be required for adjustment...although many sell their 4 valve Ducatis because of the expense and the complexity of removing cams etc exceeds many owners.
It just doesn't get any simplier than BB30. If a bike gets returned 6 times than the shop should go out of business without replacing the bike if purchased there. That either smacks of an incompetent shop...one that perhaps can't adjust a BB30 crank properly...or a shop that doesn't believe the owner that it makes noise after repeatedly returning it.

Soloist Assassin

I've had problems with BB30 bearing wearing out much more prematurely than the standard 24mm units. I do use Chris King BB on my 24mm equipped bikes, so that could be the problem. When you're used to completely bullet proof bearings, and you use something else that isn't as maintenance free, it's not near as enjoyable in comparison. I think the quality of some of the bearings out in the market today is part of the problem. My next set of BB30 bearings, I am going to buy the best most expensive bearings I can find. I just wish Chris King or Phil Wood made BB30 bearings.

FlashBazbo

I suspect that some brands get BB30 right and others don't. You very rarely hear of a Cannondale BB30 problem. BB30 is easy to install and incredibly cheap to manufacture (compared to threaded systems). On the other hand, eBay is packed with 2011 Specialized OSBB framesets with less than three months time on them.

My LBS is the biggest in Tennessee, three very large multi-brand shops in the Nashville / middle Tennessee area. Here's what the manager in their flagship shop told me yesterday: "Look, we have tried four different things with your bike. With customer bikes, we've tried a dozen different things. S-Works Tarmacs are just known to be noisy bikes. There's nothing we can do about it."

I talked with a guy yesterday evening with an identical frameset to mine, but with an English threaded BB. He volunteered without my asking: "Yeah, I used to have the OSBB version, but I had so much trouble with the bottom bracket, I sold it and bought this one."

Specialized tries to hybrid-ize -- PF30 frame with BB30 bearings. Even Campag4life hasn't put one of these together and kept it from creaking (but only because he's never seen one, I'm sure). It doesn't work.

Give me English threads. The crank/frameset total weight and total stiffness is about the same. And external-bearing BBs are/were as trouble free as anything comes.

FlashBazbo

Campag, I thought you had no experience with Specialized's OSBB system. You're speaking pretty authoritatively for a guy who's never seen, much less worked on, the system. To be honest, I think Specialized got too cute with their system. It doesn't work as well as other systems -- including those "hundreds" you've assembled.

Campag4life

There isn't much to talk about between you and me. We proved that in the other thread. You don't know a PF30 from a BB30...or from a hair brush really. You have repeatedly embarrassed yourself without even being able to differentiate the two. Specialized doesn't hybrid-ized anything. You need to put down your crack pipe. I said before its just deserts that your Sworks creaks like mad. Couldn't happen to a nicer guy or a guy more deserving of a noisey BB. I hope you think of me everytime you ride your bike....creak, creak, creak. ..think...I love Campag. BB30 is the perfect litmus test as I mentioned for guys like you....creak, creak, creak. OK...increase that cadence...say creak, creak, creak faster. ALL PF-30 BB use BB-30 bearings. I put that in bold print in case your eye sight is failing as well. They use the identical #6806 bearings...42mmX7mmX30mm ID. Speaking technology with you is like talking about water colors with Ray Charles...lol.

Campag4life

Agree...some poor BB30 bearings out there right out of the box. ABEC-1's are destined for a short, noisey life.
Biggest mistake out there isn't about pushing bearings in far enough or even using loctite...its not providing adequate crank preload. Same firestorm wages for Campy UT cranks with threaded BB's if insufficient preload...they can make noise. There is a gent on the web that sells shim kits because Campy doesn't supply them with their cranks like other crank mfr's do.

trevor_ash

BB30 is a nice excuse for me to make a smug face because I don't have any modern bikes that use it

FlashBazbo

Is that all you got, pretender?

Yaniel

wow you're a class A human being.

Campag4life

Here we go...creak, creak, creak.
Enjoy the swamp Flash...you've earned it.
OK...in case you forget...creak, creak, creak.
Flash...the BB is the thing your crank connects to.

Campag4life

Thanks!

catmandew52

Maybe the design doesn't get any simplier, but the execution to get this design to work 99.9% of the time for thousands of miles would seem to negate any advantage over an english style bottom bracket or even an old style American OPC.

From https://www.bikepro.com.au/ProductDet...amic-BB-by-HSC
BB30 Press Fit ( 46mm OD )

BB30PFis a refinement of BB30. BB30 has a couple of potential short comings. Frame builder could not able to make the bottom bracket shell in prefect alignment. It like digging a tunnel from 2 end. The prescribe close tolerance is impossible to archive from mass manufacturing. Frame builder would build frame with lose fit instead of interference fit. Frame sometimes suffer from creaking noises from the bearing/frame interface. BB30PF uses a regular bb30 crankset. Where BB30PF varies is in it’s installation. Whereas bb30 has the bearing press directly into the frame, BB30PF has a Delrin cap between the bearing and the frame. This means that the bottom bracket shell on the frame has to be even larger than a bb30 shell. While BB30PF does use the same 6806 bearing when you account for the cup the OD of the bottom bracket and the ID of the frame need to be 46mm as opposed to the 42mm of bb30. Like bb30, BB30PFuses a 30mm spindled crank and 68mm shell width. The delrin cups however do self-align and prevent creaking noises.

Why do "we" need outboard bearings that are more prone to moisture damage, crash damage, or improper preloads, than an english style Shimano sealed bb, that does not require loctite.
You can't use "knee savers" or pedal extenders with BB30 if your physiology requires them. I just see too many problems with execution of this simple design.
True, a lot of threaded bb's get destroyed because some people can't fathom anything outside of "righty tighty, lefty loosey". Well for those people, there is YST or Velo Orange threadless bb's.
And you think a bicycle shop that has been around for a little over 10yrs, or possibly two or three generations should close their doors because they can't deal with a poorly executed design? Really!
If I owned a store that sold a problematic product, and could not get some hard and fast answers, beyond, try some loctite or grease and see if the problem goes away, I would be looking for another product line instead of closing the doors.

Ultimately the market will decide how BB30 fares

Campag4life

I could dissect pretty much everything you wrote but won't. Your last statement is absolutely right. The market will decide the fate of BB30. Without lumping BB30 and PF30, the market or rather companies like Specialized and Cervelo are already determining the fate of BB30 and going to PF30 on their highest level frames. In theory PF30 should be a more forgiving design...but tell that to Flash aka Creaky. Even though he doesn't know the diff, his bike has a PF-30 BB and it creaks...so he says...it maybe his bum knee.
As to benefits of BB30, outboard bearing cranks...BB86, BBright etc with wider shells the benefits are obvious. They may not be for you however...but you maybe an average 200 watt Sunday rider. For a racer, a stiffer crank...or one with bearings more outboard will stabilize the crank and transfer more energy. A larger shell diameter can grow the spindle dia and make the crank not only stiffer but lighter. That may not matter to you. The outcry as I see it about BB30 or PF30 is...its too focused. Consider all the incremental changes to bike frames say in the last 5 years. Add them up including a BB30 and individually they are hard to distinguish but collectively they provide a higher performance frameset...lighter and stiffer. As you say the market will decide and the new bikes are so outstanding, its a great time to be a cyclist.

BikeForums.

Well yeah but there's more to a BB than just an OS'd and stiff BB-axle. If you make some stiffness gains in the BB it follows you've to beef up the rest of the crank with stiffness as well. This all adds weight. I feel Shimano still has the optimum balance of stiffness and lightness in their cranks. BB30 is somewhat un-necessary invention seeing it's provided on large proportions of entry-level bikes nowadays. An OS BB may have more merits with a high-end carbon frame. Even then PF30 still falls short in my view.
It's true crank spindle stiffness is a two dimensional vector quanity. The first is Absolute-Stiffness (BB30 wins) and other is Stability-Stiffness (BB386/Shimano wins).



NB Why be nasty to others?

svtmike

In his defense, he's become much nicer in the 2 1/2 years since he wrote that.