Campag4life

I'm glad yours has been quiet but being honest to help perhaps you in the future and others, how you did it is both common and very wrong.
Grease generally over many miles doesn't resolve creaking. So what exactly is creaking in the context of BB30? It is the micro movement of the outer race of the bearing relative to the alloy bearing bore due to a combination of force vectors on the bearings based upon crank loads. Why doesn't yours creak? Because you have sufficient press and presence of grease which reduces friction thereby not making a sound 'at present'. Grease in effect is somewhat at odds with press or interference fit. Grease fills micro voids and increases surface area but grease is lubrice which promotes bearing movement. These are competing factors.

So how to do it? Freezing bearings to shrink them is a common practice across many industries but doesn't have good application here. A well greased bearing front and rear for bearing life is essential but the outer race and BB30 bores need to be pristine. Use Loctite. Now the bearings can not creak. They can't move as they are held in place. That is the point. Press varies on different frames and even bearing O.D. varies slightly for different bearing manufacturers. Use a Park bearing press or make one from hardware store parts as many do. BB30 when set up properly will give thousands of miles of solid performance. Other mistake which it sounds like you didn't make is to adjust crank preload properly. Not rocket science but overlooked by a great number of bike mechanics and can also contribute to not only noise, but accelerated bearing wear and or bearings staying properly bedded.

So you basically showcase the common misconception of how to install BB30 and in spite of that throwing a lot of grease at it has kept it quiet. Many that try the same thing aren't as lucky because they don't have your frame tolerances. Loctite basically takes frame tolerance out of the equation. Even a slip fit works fine with Loctite. Btw, Trek's early Madones were slip fit and Trek had a real problem on their hands because there were a lot of creaky Madones. This predated the use of Loctite in the industry. Loctite basically came about in replacement of grease between the bearing and BB30 bore to keep the bearings seated and quiet. Design and installation procedures are basically a work in progress and manufacturers generally learn hard lessons by doing their beta testing with us...their customers. Happens in all industries. Volume exposes design weakness.

Campag4life

I agree with you that standards limit creativity and hand cuff design limits and why the plethora of different designs for manufactures to set themselves apart with a so called better product than their competition, but for the same reason I don't agree with your last sentence for this very reason. There is a huge array of different BB's. Most have gone to a type of press fit but within this galaxy, there are many that have gone wide shell. Specialized, perhaps the most evolved R&D company in the bike industry, hasn't followed this trend which belies chainstay width and stiffness for power transfer...but they can run a more narrow spindle with BB30 which they obviously prefer for foot clearance. Specialized, like polar opposite Trek and Cervelo with their wide BB shells all believe their designs are better even though they are vastly different...only all sharing a variation of press fit..some alloy and some are PF30 with plastic bushings. So the industry in the context of BB design isn't going to consolidate any time soon and honestly this overwhelms many that own these bikes and try to work on them who aren't technical enough to download the service manual and follow instructions and work on these bikes. We see it every day here like the OP. The issues reported here are installation or service mistakes, not fundamental issues with design. To use Lazyass as an example, he installed his BB30 with grease. This is a very common mistake and most end up creaking. I bet probably 50% of local bike shops still to this day install BB30 with just grease and not Loctite and why there are so many creaky BB's reported on the web.

roadwarrior

Interesting...

I have about 10,000 miles on a BB30 CAAD9 (Rival) and about 7,000 miles on a Super Six HM (Red), and (knock on wood) since the day we removed and reinstalled the BB never had a nickel's worth of trouble with either. I also have an EVO HM but it does nto have a lot of miles on it, maybe 2,000, but no issues.

Have BB30 on an abused cross bike...no issues.

I don't say that for any reason other than the bb in your bike was not properly installed and at our shop, we remove and reinstall the bb's before the bike's go on the floor or to storage for sale.

Hypno Toad

So, your shop has no faith in the manufacture's BB installation process; you remove the factory installed BB and re-install at the shop? This sounds very odd to me.

I confirmed with the shop, the BB30 was as installed by Felt. To be blunt, I have too much experience with this shop to throw them under the bus. Yes, there are things they can't handle, they know what those things are and tell me which shops can do it right.

roadwarrior

LOL....no, we just like to provide over the top customer service. And we have excellent mechanics, one of whom worked for the US Under 23 team.

It's how we sell about nine million in bikes a year. By providing top notch customer service.

Novel concept, eh?

Our guys have enough experience with this stuff that we, ready???...like to prevent issues we have seen in the past. That being an average installation by the factory where the guy does a ton of these in a day.

BTW...it takes no time to do this and we keep our customers happy so they do not go to other shops. Stunning stuff.

And no one was asking you to throw your favorite shop under the bus.

Breathe deeply and slowly...relax...

rpenmanparker 

Your loyalty is both sensible and admirable, BUT it doesn't address the fundamental question. Does you shop adhere to the demonstrated BEST PRAACTICE for installing BB30 bearing cartridges, or does it not? Felt's methods are not germane at this point. That best practice includes green Loctite. If they are not doing that at least as soon as the original installation or subsequent reinstallation proves to be faulty, then they are not to be trusted to do this job. They should do it as a matter of course; it is the proven technique. But even if they do not do it originally, they should still not refuse to do it subsequently. I would have a discussion with them.

roadwarrior

Good post...

It's funny, not too many years ago a bike came from the factory almost totally disassembled. Now, it's the opposite, it's almost totally assembled so the mechanics have a bit more time on builds because of this. As a result we decided not to total trust a factory build when selling a bike. It's not so much that the factory guy does not know what he is doing, it's building a lot of bikes that can lead to mistakes or not going the extra few steps, like you mention with this system.
I'd prefer not to have to take a fairly new bike and explain why something failed when a few extra moments take care of the problem, up front.

bbattle

I know you're really a secret Ashtabula fan.

rpenmanparker 

Yes, if you can afford it, that is good business. My question to you is what fraction of as-delivered-to-you BB30 bikes were factory assembled without Loctite. You don't have to mention any brand names if that is not comfortable for you. But what fraction of the time are you correcting a deficient BB30 installation still today?

Hypno Toad

No worries, very calm

Exactly why my shop has my loyalties. 15 years of over-the-top customer service - both with my families 10 bikes and ~6 snowboards. The shop treats me like family.

Now this makes me question, does Specialized, or Felt, or Trek, make few than 9M bikes per year? Basically, this statement says that they are putting lower quality product in the market. I'm just curious your thoughts. This is the first Felt I've bought. We have a couple Kona, a couple Marin, and a mix of other bikes in the family - all of them came from the factory in great condition. My Kona Dew Drop, with way over 10K on it, has had no 'factory' issues, the build quality and quality of the products selected for this bike are great!

rpenmanparker 

He means dollars, not sales units when he says 9 million.

The point I think you need to appreciate as was explained previously by @Campag4life is that BB30 is a development that entered the market at the beta testing stage (either intentionally or not). So the outlook is for it to be a valuable advancement in BB technology once the kinks get worked out. The only known kink is not related to design or manufacturing execution of the parts; a recall for replacement of the BB30 components with a better design is not required. The only issue is installation technique. Once the Loctite method is universally followed, BB30 will not longer have endemic issues. So the as-delivered issue with BB30 bikes is real, but actually minor and easily remedied.

Hypno Toad

And this is why the unit of measure is important (LOLz)

Campag4life

That's right. If you want a bike built properly, you tear it down and rebuild it with proper fluids and adhesives and torque. The factory isn't that careful. Wheel hubs never have best preload...either do headsets...or cranks that use mechanical preload versus wave washer...groupsets are improperly adjusted...its a long list. Crank creaking has been around since square taper which wasn't immune. BB30 is a more robust design than square taper independent of being better in weight and stiffness. Taper presses are more variable. People that don't understand the design of BB30 don't like them because they don't set them up right but guys that do love them.
If anybody struggles with something as rudimentary as properly setting up a BB30, then of course they should never even think about adjusting valves on a 4V Ducati..latter being rocket science by comparison...lol.

Reynolds 

Many "innovations" are just marketing IMO. Always something "newer and better" must appear so people "upgrade" and spend.
As for me, I don't need stiffer cranksets, I'm 200W on a good day!

Hypno Toad

Would you do the same thing with your brand new Honda Civic, rebuild the engine before driving it?

IDK, maybe each factory/manufacture is different. I currently have 4 bikes I use all the time and all were delivered as-built from the manufacturer:

Kona Dew Drop (2009) - well over 10K and only wear parts replaced (chain, cassette, tires, etc). Hell, I still have the original grip tape and saddle - and those notoriously cheap on new bikes. This is a daily-commuter and see harsh conditions.

Marin Nail Trail (2005) - fewer miles, but MUCH harder miles - this is my winter-commuter and single-track bike - only replaces some minor wear items.

Globe Daily (2012) - won this bike as a prize in the National Bike Challenge - 2,000 miles and everything is original (expect the pedals, I hated the pedals that came with it).

Felt Z85 (2013) - well, you know the story (see earlier posts)

I am a biker, not a mechanic. I've been using bikes to get around since the mid-1980's ... so, I'm not really 'new' to this bike-thingy. I know how to service many of the basic maintenance items on my bikes, but that's not my joy. Clearly, I'm not the serious geek, i wouldn't be deep-diving into every bolt and bearing on the bike to know if it's the best/lightest/whatever. But, I'm not an idiot either. I'll let you know when I don't know stuff.

So, here's my question/challenge: Name your bike's brand/model, bottom bracket model, and miles before replacing. For example:

Felt Z85; BB30; 1,200 miles
Kona Dew Drop; RPM 7420(?); 10,800 miles &counting

Maybe my expectations are unrealistic based the experience I'm having with the Kona (this Kona is a beast, in all the best ways)

Hypno Toad

As promised earlier - here's the picture of the drive-side bearing after 1,200 miles of riding.

Campag4life

A bad bearing. If any bearing isn't packed with grease it will fail and failure will be accelerated by dirt ingress and/or water intrusion. Has nothing to do with BB30. Also, BB30 bearings aren't all the same. Some are crap with high tolerances aka ABEC-1 and other like ABEC 5 or 7 are much more robust. Also, ceramic bearing which are unnecessary in a BB30 application last longer under greased.

Campag4life

Yeah, you said you are bike rider. You aren't mechanically talented. So a guy like you buys a Honda motorcycle and it develops an engine failure you believe that Honda's have crap engines when the opposite is true. That is how personal experience works without further perspective.

Hypno Toad

Nope, I don't lack talent, I lack interest and passion.

If the engine fails inside of a year, yep, it's crap. Maybe it's not that Honda is crap. Your poorly made point, maybe BB30 isn't crap, but this is a crappy example. Not every Honda engine is going to go over 300K (like mine did). Not all BB30 will fail inside one year, mine did.

Perspective, please read my post. Decades of riding thousands of miles per year and multiple bikes, yep, I've got some experience and perspective.

In all those years, I've never had any component fail so quickly.

[h=3][/h]

Hypno Toad

So, does this mean that I can't use the BB30 bike for a rainy day ride or a gravel century? Seems like that's what I'm reading here.

For perspective, I have over 10K on a BB that get soaking wet, exposed to tons of gravel and dust, plus snow and ice in the winter. So, I know that other BB can take this kind of abuse. But base on this experience, I don't believe the BB30 can hold up this this kind of punishment.

SundayNiagara

+1 I was just in my LBS and the owner doesn't like bb30, either.

Hypno Toad

That's kinda arrogant, but lends some perspective.

And there's my point, you made it for me years ago. Thank you!

Lazyass

No it's not wrong if it works. It worked for me and nothing else matters to me.

Campag4life

It doesn't matter what your deficit is, you are not mechanically talented or you would appreciate the design of BB30. There is no simpler, cost effective, stiffer or lighter BB solution. Even after I explain cause and effect you still don't get it. No surprise.
See Roadwarrior's comments? He raced in Europe and runs a bike shop and owns several BB30 bikes and sells them by the boat load. No issues.
There is nothing wrong with BB30. There is plenty wrong with the guys that throw BB30 under the bus and they get what they deserve. If you can't get one to work, buy a bike with a threaded BB. Pretty simple.

Campag4life

Prior to the industry moving in favor of Loctite, grease was spec'ed between bearing O.D. and BB30 bore I.D.'s. So yes, it can work, it is just much more variable....and more greatly dependent on tolerance stack up which determines bearing press. Loctite takes that out of the equation. If bearings balls are properly greased and outer races Loctited in place and crank preload is adjusted properly, BB30 can't creak. Using all grease is more variable.