denvertrout

My current setup does not equal the KOS position, or any other that I have found online or watching videos. My knee is actually behind the spindle. My newest bike after setting up based on comfort is almost the exact same position as my old one. I can ride comfortably for hours and have no problems with pain anywhere. So, I am trying to figure out should I start making minor tweaks here and there and set up my bike more traditional, or leave it the way it is? Also, if I make changes how can i objectively measure that it benefits me? No power meter available. I average 19-20 when riding by myself.

Adrianinkc

Don't move a thing. If you have doubts, get a pro fit and try it out. Don't work? Go back to your old fit.

topflightpro

How are you determining KOP?

It's nearly impossible to do accurately by yourself. Additionally, it's not quite an exact measurement. Some fitters suggest that the outer tip of the knee cap line up with the front of the pedal spindle. Others think it should be dead center with the spindle. Chances are, you are pretty close.

MrTuner1970

Even if you are very comfortable, it would be a good idea to get a fitting from a good fitter. Sometimes physical pain doesn't show up right away. How many miles are you riding annually?

I think it's ok to be 1-2 cm from the spindle (either way) as long as you're comfortable and not doing anything to cause problems later on. But still worth a fitting, IMO.

canam73

You may find this interesting:

https://sheldonbrown.com/kops.html

Campag4life

Hard to know. But you raise a good topic for discussion. My assertion is, the most comfortable position on a road bike isn't necessarily the fastest one...why the proliferation of all the comfort geometry bikes out there. You may or may not be at the sweetspot between comfort and speed.
All depends how much you want to invest in your position. The KOPS thing + or - means nothing...nor does any given fit convention. We are each unique. Most recreational riders are better served for example riding behind KOPS...but this isn't the fastest postion per se...but can be more comfortable with weight back off the hands.
If you are serious or want to race and explore your limits...only way I would go from where you are is...a pro fit with a power meter. They hook up your bike and measure your watt output in your current position. Then your position is adjusted to see if you are as efficient as you can be. I will assert most of us aren't but this can be a choice, aka choice of comfort over the most aero, watt producing riding position. Keep in mind the old guys you see riding upright on cruisers may be faster in a more aggressive road bike position but likely they won't be as comfortable for how they ride.
Hope that helps.

denvertrout

I measure by dropping a plumb bob off the tibial plateau. I am back of it by a good inch. I figured the responses might be get a fitting, but really do not want to pay the cost involved with that. I am just a recreational rider, and don't plan to ever race. A really good year is 1200 miles. I guess I will play with my setup a bit and see what happens, and base it on average speed for known routes. As far as objectively measuring it would seem that is as close as it gets.

Creakyknees

KOPS is an old handed down bit of wisdom. It's an output, not an input, to the positioning process. If KOPS is right, then how do recumbents work? How about TT bikes? Etc...

Campag4life

For a road bike, I would say 1 full inch behind KOPS is a bit extreme. How do you accomplish this btw?...what kind of seat post...saddle slammed back?...laid back seat tube angle? In an event, I would consider moving forward a bit...or at least trying it. Of course you will also have to lengthen your reach to the bars which means a corresponding longer stem. My personal belief is they only way you get good is by experimenting. Very few can just hop on a road bike and they are fast and comfortable. For most, it takes a lot of trial and error and maybe a fitting or two to hone in the best position for 'them'.

Trucker Dan

Kops doesn't matter:

HMF

that bike don't make no sense.

is he death-gripping the hoods to keep from sliding off the back?

denvertrout

Just a 2005 Trek madone all stock. The saddle is all the way on the front rails, meaning I could bring it way forward. When I measure the elbow at seat edge to stem I am an inch into the stem. The frame is 58cm and I am 6'1", so pretty sure it is the right size for me, which is the same size as my other bike too. I wear a size 50 shoe, but don't know how that plays into it all.

Thirstyman

where on your foot is the cleat positioned relative to the ball of your foot?

pat5319

this was a postion he tired late in his career in an attempt to get more power, he later abandoned it

do what works for you!!!!!! I ride a little bit behind kops myself most of the time but on occasion I slide up the saddle to be in front of it

pat5319

most experts say to posiition the ball of your foot over the pedal axle give or take a centimeter

lazerzxr

Not only is KOPS pretty meaningless but after lots of testing with my powertap I have proven (to myself at least) that it has no real impact on power - only comfort. Fitters sometimes say they can increase a riders power by 10 or even 15% but this is a silly statement because power is time dependant so what power are they talking about? FTP? Sprint? It wont be all power i can assure you. Long rides will be quicker if you are comfortable.

Having looked into this extensively for my own fit using my powertap as a guide I can say thet the only thing I have been able to change with fit is comfort and sprint power. Stem length and cleat fore / aft can change my sprint power by about 100 watts.

How important is your sprint? By the way, high sprint power comes at the expense (for me at least) of long ride comfort

AdelaaR

Advice on fit on forums is meaningless ... there simply are too many factors to consider.
There isn't any rule or formula or technique ... it's all very personal.
Do what feels best for you.

roadwarrior

This is a good description, except I would add that if you change your position, and it's less comfortable, give it a little time. Muscle memory from your previous position needs to go away as you get used to your new, more powerful position.

We are looking for the most ouput you can produce for longer periods of time, not a super aggressive position you can only maintain for a few minutes at a time. But, as has been stated here a number of times, fit is a moving target so if you lose weight, get more flexible, etc, your position can change.

and I know you know all this...

Campag4life

This is more your expertise than mine to be sure. I think Lazer made excellent points in his post. He played around with his powermeter and morphed his position and the biggest revelation for him was...his comfort changed more by changing his position than his power output. Sprinting out of the saddle is generally affected the most by a more forward handlebar...and climbing...as Peter White talks about...but too forward a bar has negative consequences for overall riding and as said, if one is less comfortable thoughout the ride, then he or she will likely lay down few watts over time. The unspoken element of fit relates to aerodynamics. A lower positon is more areo...but again, if one exceeds his or her native flexibility...power output will suffer even though drag profile is reduced. I found this out for me experimenting with a lower handlebar. If the bar is lower than my native flexibility, even though I may bore a smaller hole into the wind, I can't put the power down to the pedals with too closed a hip angle. So fit really is a balance between comfort, power and aerodynamics in my experience.

pdedes

Open, 1200 miles/year isn't all that much. To ride all-day fast requires a healthy dose of comfort. To ride tt fast requires more extreme positional compromises.

denvertrout

Lazers response is exactly what I was looking for. It sounds like from his experience power is not related so much to positioning, but to his comfort level. I am sure on either extreme, power and comfort will be affected. While 1200 miles is not much compared to many, I have not been passed by any rider in several years, except on those damn mountains Knowledgeable responses are certainly helpful, and I appreciate them all. Cleat is positioned at ball of foot, right where it should be. Again, I have absolutely no discomfort in my current setup, just wondering if changing my position will impact my speed/power.

mmmdonuts

This might sound convoluted but I believe that if you set your position based on the amount of power you are able to put down you'll find better long term comfort and efficiency. A dynamic fit that evolves as you get stronger. Forward if you're stronger/faster, further back if you're weaker/slower. The only good thing about KOPS is the "PS" in that it gives you a quick point of reference on different bikes, saddles, etc.

Campag4life

I respectfully disagree with this. I believe perhaps the most powerful position...provided one that doesn't exceed a rider's flexibility is a direct load path to the pedals which means a low handlebar. A low handlebar can have longer distance consequences based upon excessive neck extension and lumbar flexion. This is my opinion. For example in a short race, I believe many will be faster on a pro fit but many can't take that position for say half century rides. A low bar position works with higher pedal forces but not as well for longer distance riding where lower pedal force translates to greater pressure on the hands.
This is my experience anyway.

mmmdonuts

I don't think we disagree much. The rider's style and goals have to be accounted for in fit and positioning. Long distance at moderate power will call for a higher and further back position than short distances at higher power. When I say "amount of power" I don't mean max, I mean on average.

I also think that people who say they are not flexible enough for a low position are in reality not strong enough for it. Excluding those with musculoskeletal problems that limit positioning.

big chainring 

Look at old film clips of Fausto, Jacques, and Eddy. Emulate.