knobd

I've been going back and forth with the go/no go decision on clipless myself. The safety reason is the one thing that interests me once, of course, you get past the initial clip/unclip learning curve. There have been several times with my platforms where my foot got knocked off the pedal and caught me off guard. It's not the best feeling when a car's whizzing by you at 60 mph. On the other hand, outside of this reason I'm totally comfortable and happy with platforms. I'll probably end up going clipless once I meet my 2012 mileage goal but I sometimes wander if it's really worth the trouble.

bikinbobs

I highly recommend Zefal Toe Cups. Used them for many years, then got bit by the clipless bug and switched to Speedplay Frogs for approx. 7 years before switching back to the Zefal's. I prefer the freedom to choose from a variety of different shoe types depending on what and when and how I want to ride my bikes. The Zefal Toe Cups hold my feet in place; wet, bumpy, fast, etc., and they protect my toes from errant obstacles. They last forever, are inexpensive, available via Amazon and don't look half bad. Be warned: If you go with any pedals other than clipless these days, many cyclists may/will judge/label you a "retrogrouch", "totally old-school", a "Freak", or something far worse. Be brave.

SuperGregNo1

Let me rephrase: "Some people think tagaproject6 has good reading comprehension. However, this is completely incorrect."

Spin that one.

I've seen the arguments posted plenty of times before, with long explanations about why it is not even possible to apply upward force (not that people choose not to). It's a bunch of BS.

David Bierbaum

I was about to ask about strapless toe clips, since it is the straps that drive me nuts with my old 1992 toe grips. Cheap is my first, last, and middle name, so special clipless pedals and cleats are less attractive to me than strapless toe clips or clipless toe straps (Powergrips ) Edit: Ouch! 42 dollars for powergrips? I think not... Oh, that's for clip and pedal... Sorry!

Of course I AM a retro grouch, though I'm not THE Retrogrouch of these forums!

therhodeo

Why is this even a debate anymore?

funrover 

I have been riding toe clips for years. I love the fact I can wear regular shoes and go for a ride. I don't find them are to get out of at all and when wet my feet don't slip off the pedals. The power grips intrigue me but never found them set up in a way I liked.

Ghost Ryder

+1
I have experience with all three systems.
Clipless is by far the easiest to use IMO. Just start using them @ the lightest "lock in" setting, this will make it really easy to get in, & out of them. Some people even suggest you try it out on grass first.
I tried this & nearly fell over because I lost traction in my tires. Once I got on the road it was so easy.
Disengage as you approach a stop sign/intersection/where you need to stop.
I have the platform/SPD combo too, & prefer them over my SPD-SL's.(for now)

Straps are ok, but the weight of the straps can put them in the wrong position @ a full stop. You often have to flip them over & stick you foot in @ the right moment.
It's all about timing. Make sure to get to rigid straps.
Toe clips I find always strike the ground when you miss getting in them when you're rushed to get going.

I still use all three, but I find clipless by far the easiest. It's really just "mind games".

digitalusa

I use power grips on my road bike and clipless on my mountain bike.
Reason, on mountain biking, you need fast clip on on a up-incline, and also it is more secure when you are bombarding rough downhill.
On road, usually you have little more time to put your feet into power grip and has benefit of using any shoes you like.Also if it is a long uphill like 5 or more miles, you can always get off the bike and walk VERY comfortably, instead of standing still.

Ghost Ryder

What is this practice you are referring to???
HTFU, & tell your legs to STFU!!!
Keep spinning @ all cost!!!

RedC

This is the biggest reason I like my clipless pedals. When I periodically forget that I am too old and too big to jump up and pedal out of the saddle I don't want my feet to slip off the pedals. I feel much safer with my clipless pedals and it doesn't take long to get used to them and clipping out becomes pretty automatic I had more trouble learning to clip in

blt

I am currently using Power Grips as a mid-way before going clipless. I have this sneaking suspicion that when I get to clipless, having gone with Power Grips will make clipless seem easy, but perhaps I am the optimist. I certainly am adjusted to the idea of the need to get my foot detached from the pedal when coming to a stop, so that aspect of clipless shouldn't be a problem.

I see good ol' fashioned toe clips as not being enough like clipless to make it a good mid-way to clipless. In my totally unscientific survey, I have found that among those who prefer platforms but have tried both toe clips and clipless, about 95% find clipless easier than toe clips. This is consistent with some posters in this thread who think clipless is easier than toe clips.

It is true that the Power Grips require adjustment of the straps for different shoes, but it really isn't very hard to do, I have three different sets of shoes I might use with my Power Grips, and I have three markings on each strap. If I am going with a different shoe than I used the last time I rode the bike, it takes less time to adjust the Power Grips for a different shoe than it takes to top off my tires with air. Really not a big deal.

Don't know what shoes you are wearing, but did find improved efficiency by getting stiffer cycling shoes. I have mountain biking shoes that let me walk in them and will go with the pedals I plan to get when the time comes, and those are the shoes I almost always use, except when I'm using the bike for transportation and don't want to be in cycling shoes wherever it is I'm going. Although I haven't gotten to the end of the story yet, I have to believe that it will help adjusting to clipless to already be regularly cycling in the shoes that I will use once I go clipless, I think that is another good mid-way step.

escarpment

If your not comfortable with clipless then dont use them. Its that simple.

All I know is that when I ride without clipless pedals I feel weird.

robncircus

I think it depends on how you will use your bike. The efficiency of a clipless system is impressive. Stiff shoes allow little energy being lost, and the ability to spin a pedal stroke, no matter how little, helps. I wouldn't want to ride a century in tennis shoes and toe clips.

That said, if you're doing cross town jaunts that are shorter, toe clips would work fine. You can also get clipless adapters that allow a platform to be added to a clipless pedal. Or, consider this: https://www.nashbar.com/bikes/Product...64_-1___202363 best of both worlds.

It's my opinion, but when proerly set up I think clipless are great for anything and everything over about 5 miles.

Bacciagalupe

No, it really isn't.

The only data out there indicates that no one adds power to the drivetrain on the upstroke, and when clipped in you are not supplying continuous power to the drivetrain at all times. This is why the pedal stroke has a "dead spot" when you're at the 12:00/6:00 position; it's when one leg has finished supplying power, and the other leg is just starting. A smooth pedal stroke is still beneficial, but it does not eliminate the dead spot.

E.g. here's the vector data from Metrigear's pedal-based power meters. In the bottom chart, the red line is the left leg; the green line is the right leg. Each leg has a long flat period (no power), followed by a peak and decline. You see the dead spot, when one leg has finished providing power, and the other is just starting to provide power (roughly 12:00 / 6:00). When you average it over time, the power meter gives you a straight line, which is useful in analyzing your performance; if the power meter was zooming between 0 and 800 three times a second, the readout would be unintelligible.



So, you tell me. Since the data indicates that you are not supplying power on the upstroke, then what is the big advantage of clipless -- other than that they feel good? How do we quantify that advantage? And is it nearly as important as most people presume? And while it's a big improvement over traditional clips, which can cause big issues in an accident, what advantage does it offer over PowerGrips which still clamp your foot in but are safer than traditional clips?


Stiff shoes are important, but aren't mutually exclusive with platforms.


I agree that clipless often feels really good.

But the reality is that your feet aren't going to fall off because, horror of horrors, you used platforms for more than 15-20 minutes.

IMO in the absence of other evidence, the performance advantages of clipless may exist but are enormously overstated. Sort of like everything else that roadies insist improve performance...

canam73

For casual/fitness cyclists you may be mostly right.

But what your charts don't show is that small changes in foot/pedal position can have an effect on overall power output. Having a positive click in to ensure that you are exactly where you want to be is important for racers and others looking to maximize performance.

Also, from reading here it seems many people have repetitive motion issues in their knees that having and exact pedal location with a pre-set amount of float helps with.

telebianchi

These studies, which I have no reason to doubt and I am certain that the people involved are a whole lot smarter than I am, all seem to be focused on whether a highly trained cyclist is pulling up on their pedals. I agree that when I am spinning a high cadence, or sprinting, or sitting in at a moderate pace in a group or pace line that I never pull up on the pedal. However, I am not a highly skilled or highly trained cyclist. I do not have $300 fitted carbon soled shoes. Sometimes my feet and legs start to hurt a little bit. In those cases, I like to pull up on my pedal on the rear upstroke. It tends to help loosen up my legs and gives my toes and foot arch a little breathing room. I have no doubt that if Pruitt put his force-measuring gear on me at those times that it would register power being applied to the upstroke.

I agree that trying to get power on an upstroke is not the reason to switch to clipless. But they do have other benefits and that's why pro-level riders and many, many recreational riders made the switch years ago. Because for many types of riding clipless are a better solution. That said, I think a lot of people find clips or straps to be a better solution and that's completely understandable.

But, if a rider who is currently using plain platforms want to go to clipless I think -- from my own experience -- that clips or straps are completely unnecessary intermediate step.

muu

I'm back to riding flat pedals, and if something starts bothering me in the legs I can make a very simple change: switch up the position of the foot. It's recommended that you change positions on the handlebar every once in a while, and to me it's almost bizarre that oftentimes the same concept is ignored for the legs. And I don't feel any loss in power either; flats are still easy to spin through, and hills aren't a problem either. At mile 200 it's a struggle, but I doubt a little bit of 'pushing up' is going to help overcome a situation where I can't get my heart rate up any longer.

mystang52

Since I started this thread, I guess it's time to chime in again. I think I'm leaning to getting clipless, but mainly for what I believe will be to make the pedaling effort somewhat more efficient and easier. I'll never be a speed demon or particularly competitive, so that's not my motivation.
If I take the plunge, I will likely get those dual pedals with clipless on one side and flat on the other, and MTB shoes. I appreciate all the input here.

Bacciagalupe

1) I think we all know that if you ask why clipless is better, 99% of people will incorrectly claim "it helps you pull up on the pedals, and that gives you moar powar."
2) I haven't seen any data that shows that foot/pedal position improves power output. (Though it can minimize or produce injury.)
3) I can't think of a single reason why you can get a better foot/pedal position based on using platforms, clips or clipless. E.g. going clipless won't prevent you from dropping your heel on the downstroke.

The only thing I can imagine is that at high power outputs combined with high cadences, it'd be difficult (perhaps impossible) to actually keep your foot on the pedal. I'd fully accept that a sprinter who generates 1200+ watts really needs to be attached to the pedals. In which case, it's useful for racers and very fast club rides, and unnecessary for everyone else.

Plus, I'm not that hard to convince. Just show me the data.


Clipless can also generate hot spots, and if the cleat is in the wrong spot you're going to have lots of issues. You also don't need a lot of float -- 4º should be plenty. I'd say this is a wash.

DXchulo

Power Grips are great. I've commuted on them for years and they're perfect for that task. You can wear any shoes you want and they're easy to get in and out of. Just twist your foot a little and that's it. Installation takes a little longer, but they stay where you want them and I haven't been able to break one of the straps yet.

I could be wrong, but I do feel like they make a difference over plain old platform pedals, especially on hills.

Bacciagalupe

FYI, Pruitt works with cyclists of any ability level. You don't have to be a pro to make an appointment at the Boulder Center for Sports Medicine. The claim that "no one pulls up on the pedals" isn't restricted to elite cyclists; it means everyone.

When you're on the upstroke, you're lifting your leg. What you are doing is changing the muscle groups you're using on the upstroke, which gives the muscles you normally use a rest. It almost certainly feels like you're providing power. But that's just not what is happening.


So "clipless is better because clipless is better" ?

The simple fact is that we just aren't good judges of these kinds of things, and people have gone for decades believing that attaching your foot to the pedal increases power output. That's why someone actually had to put a power meter into a pedal to prove it, and even after they've proved it, people still don't want to believe it.

Again, I'm guessing it's useful for high-powered sprinters, and the rest of us are unnecessarily emulating the pros. Thus, at least in the absence of actual empirical data to the contrary, I'm skeptical that people should feel the need to switch in the first place.

canam73

You missed my point. I'm not talking about pulling up. I'm talking about finding the most efficient set up and then having a way to consistently duplicate it and stay in it. I use Power Grips on one of my bikes. They are not nearly as exact as having a spot on your foot that lines up every time.



All pedal/shoe systems can cause hot spots if not set up or used correctly. Using that as an argument is moronic. But using a clipless pedal along with a stiff soled shoe is the system that is most likely to not cause hot spots when set up correctly.

And telling others how much float they should or shouldn't have is just as stupid. Their own knees and bodies will let them know. Unless you've ridden with their knees?

Commodus

One does wonder...the science was done many decades ago. Everything since has confirmed it.

muu

A new golf club is going to increase your yardage, better headphone cables are going to elevate your listening experience to a new level, $700 HDMI cables are going to be superior to the monoprice crap, clipless is vastly superior to cages/pedals only. No one's going to pay attention to real data in any of these cases, or better yet they'll run on a counterclaim supposedly proving why their stuff's better.

More interesting IMO is that the traditional cleat position is less efficient than it really can be; there's been a few articles about this, and Joe Friel's also concluded w/ his power meter testing that toe cleats should be mid foot cleats if you want the most bang for your buck (he claims a 9% increase in power):

https://www.trainingbible.com/joesblo...-position.html

Even faced w/ info like this, you'll notice that most people commenting try as hard as they can to justify why their investment is sound.

canam73

So where is it that Friel says to use cages in lieu of clipless?