chaadster

I don't agree with this.

Someone in another forum measured the overall length of Mercier Nano at 56", and a 700C Schwinn road bike in 53cm size came in at 68", that's a foot long difference...enough to make a world of difference in where you stash it.

And despite the weight, which you won't beat in a similarly priced folder, the ride quality is much better with the full diamond frame. Folders are fun-- I've got one-- but it's not the same as a standard frame, regardless of wheel size.

chaadster

No doubt that overall performance is probably a wash for road, though I'd give the nod to 700c for road riding comfort and maintaining speed. However, there's no doubt that the 20" will spin up, or accelerate to a given speed, faster, so they might be a boon for some sprint racing for that reason, or street drag.

Omiak

Eh, I can ride mine without my hands on the bars no problem. I guess if you want to substitute a negatively connotated synonym for agile that's your call.

chaadster

You know, I looked and looked, and couldn't find it anywhere, and BD doesn't have a search function, so it seems the only way to find it is via web search. A hidden gem! Gotta be in the know!

chaadster

Yeah, I don't find the handling "negatively agile" either, although adding a 130mm stem did slow things down a bit compared to the stock 90mm.

chaadster

Tasty bit, this Indie Fab. Smells like Ti!:

Omiak

chaadster

Oh!

KABLOWH!!!

C'mon now, Omiak...these kids can't handle this! You gotta ease it in...

chaadster

Something...you know...less threatening!

BarracksSi

I had a shop salesman try to steer me away from mini velos (and folders, too) because, as he put it, the little wheels mean that you'll be pedaling your butt off and still won't go very fast.

I said, "Well, that's what 55- and 60-tooth chainrings are for."

Doug5150

Differently similar - the RANS Mini: https://rans.com/bicycles/mini.html

It is a 20" version of their crank-forward bikes:
https://www.rans.com/bicycles/crank-forward.html

You may be wondering, "Why?"... Better riding comfort, mainly. They still pedal efficiently though, longer rides aren't a problem. Unlike most other popular "comfort" bikes, the RANS line actually spans several frame sizes, so you can probably get one that fits you.

Bacciagalupe

I owned a Swift, and rarely folded it when it was inside my relatively small apartment. I barely saved any space compared to 700c bikes.

Folders are significantly more convenient in this respect.


Actually, most cheap folders will weigh around 26 pounds.


The Swift, and a few other folders, are about as stiff as any diamond frame bike.

The Nano's main advantage here is that it's cheap. Of course, its disadvantage is that it's cheap. Lots of no-name components, downtube shifters, 8sp cassette, no LBS support, only available in two sizes.

Also, the drivetrain on a 20" mini-velo is a bit lower to the ground, which can expose it to more dirt and road debris.

As to mini-velos in general, they probably work a little better for small riders, and the faster handling can be useful in a dense urban environment. They aren't as bad as they are often made out to be. But in many respects, they're a novelty.

This is not necessarily a bad thing; lots of people find mini-velos to be fun, and "being different" is a part of that; aesthetically they can also be pleasing. I just don't think they have a lot of practical advantages over either 700c bikes or 20" folders.

Phantoj

Are these a good idea for kids?

If I got one, could I fit it to my 4'9" son? Would he outgrow it less quickly than a real road bike?

chaadster

Again, a foot of space is extremely significant if you don't have it. I'm talking about the difference between fitting and not fitting. Of course folders fold smaller than a mini, no revelation there, but whether folding and unfolding a bike is more more convenient than just parking it will depend on the context. I have a fair amount of space for my bikes, for example, but tend to reach for the mini more often than the folder because unfolding it is less convenient. Not to belabor the point, but reading the Folding Bike forum, I don't think it's uncommon for folding owners to keep the bikes unfolded mostly, and rather folding more for portability than storage convenience.


I don't know the folding market so well, but a Citizen Gotham2, at a pricier $319, is also weightier at 28lbs. The Dahon Boardwalk is about $300, and weighs in at 27.3lbs. Outside of single speed folders, which are not a fair comparison, comparable folders that weigh less might exist, but it's certainly not to be taken for granted that most cheap folders will weigh less than the Nano.



"About as stiff" is close, but no cigar, as they say! The Nano is a diamond frame bike. I've got no complaint with the ride quality of good folding bikes, but they do feel different.

Agreed. I'd go further to say that the components are straight up junky. I've replaced brake calipers, chainrings, cranks, brake levers, seat and seat post, and needed to grease and adjust every bearing on it. Mine rides sweet now, but for those not adept at bike repair and adjustment, the Nano out of the box is a piece of junk.

Agreed in theory, though in practise I don't know if this is actually an issue. Will drivetrain service intervals be shorter? Lifespan shorter? I dunno, but I doubt it.

I think minivelos work fine for the standard range of riders; shorter riders will need to be mindful of stand over height, taller rides of getting the preferred extension, which in the case of the Nano for me as a 6' rider, meant a new stem and seat post.

The tossable, playful, handling and supreme low speed stability do make minis awesome city bikes. You can dice in traffic with ease, and smoothly noodle down a sidewalk without making pedestrians nervous.

Calling minis a novelty, however, is unfair. These are not fad bikes offering merely style and nothing of substance. They are as capable over the road as any other bike, and may actually be the best possible choice for some settings and riders, such as for aggressive urban riders. Yes, they are novel here in the USA in the sense that they are new and relatively rare, but they are not novelties.

Speaking for myself, I love the quick to grab, easy to manipulate size of the mini, and for my short runs downtown or to the office, the mini really has filled a gap in the bike stable for me, and yes, it's fun and attention-getting, too!

chaadster

Standover height is not kid sized, I don't think. The small Nano is 27.9" inches at the top tube; what's his inseam?

HardyWeinberg

A folder w/ no top-tube would last indefinitely (or until you run out of seatpost to pull out) but a mini-velo w/ 700c equivalent toptube wouldn't get you there I don't think.

monsterpile

I'll add a few of thoughts.

size matters. Getting through doors carrying a bike up stair and navigating it indoors the minni velo is a pleasure. Their are plenty of advantages to having a something smaller.

Is is lighter? Well probably not, but for example the Nano is probably about as heavy/light as a similarly priced budget road bike from BD or other manufacturer. For me it goes back to size something is easier to manage when its smaller

Is the handling nimble or twitchy? Yes I suppose they are smaller bikes and tend to be more nimble, btu there nowhere near as "twitchy" as folders I have owned.

"I had a shop salesman try to steer me away from mini velos (and folders, too) because, as he put it, the little wheels mean that you'll be pedaling your butt off and still won't go very fast."

These comments I hear all the time but they would never really think you would spin out on a mountain bike with low gearing right? In my commuting and long rides (pretty flat on the long stretches) I have rarely ever wished i had a taller gear on the Windsor. If you were doing some serious road riding yeah my bike would need some larger chain rings, but I am really not concerned about that although I have a 60 tooth I might throw on the Windsor one day...

A mini velo could be a great little road bike for a kid to get started with. You can get the biggest Nano frame (doubt you will have a problem with standover) and they can keep growing and still have a fun little bike for pretty cheap and then spring for a large size if they want. Of course they might want to stick with the small wheels for good. I know of people who have ended up this way including a single speed Swift as their only bike. I am 5'10 and generally like riding longer top tube frames (therefore generally a size up) due to having a longer torso (and preferring taller bar height) my mini velo fits great its not to short in that regard.

Why a mini Velo compared to a folder?
1. Price compared to features. You can get a Mercier Nano with more gears for less than what you can get a folder with more gears. Of course its relativity easy to add to a folder, but not everyone does that type of stuff.

2. Stiffness feel etc. I've had a number of folder from a 200's Dahon boardwalk 6 to a Swift and older stuff too and nothing seemed to be as good for me as the mini velos Its preference, but I notice a significant difference

3. Setup. The mini velo is a small framed bike that you can change things out like stem etc to get it to fit like you want. Folders are not always so easy. Buy a mini velo you can instantly start putting whatever parts you have laying around on it to upgrade. Thats not always the case with the folding bikes especially when it comes to the cockpit.

I am not saying Mini Velos are the best bike or anything, but they have certain advantages and are totally legit bikes. I ride alot of bike sand I have had a number of road bikes over the past few years and I put a pretty good amount of miles on my 1987 Schwinn Le Tour with 27" wheels but I love my mini Velo's

chaadster

Monsterpile,

Great point regarding the generally easier modification/setup of minis compared to folders! Being able to dial in fit and spec the setup as you want is a huge advantage over folders, particularly for taller riders.

kraftwerk 

I have two 451 wheeled bikes ( both folders) and they are just plain fun to ride. They have a type of tossability which I remember from my bmx days.
And they go from zero to fast very quickly, they are also great climbing tools.

I have taken my 1970's Raleigh Folding 20 (modded) all over the world (in a suitcase at no extra charge btw) I now have a Swift totally modded with 451 wheels and weighs about 23.8 lbs. much less than the R-20

Omiak, Loved your vid. Seoul was one of the worst places to ride a bike.. but I would go back there in a second for the mekju, kimchi and good Chingau.

FrogmanM

Wow that Seven Mini Velo looks great! Here is my Mini Velo suited up for riding around Humboldt Bay.

Clem von Jones

I'm interested in mini-velos. With their drop bars, short wheelbase, and small wheels I suspect they'd make an ideal bike for steep climbs if you lived in the mountains for example or a city like San Francisco. You can also run comfy and sure-footed fat tires without incurring a huge weight penalty. They definitely have a niche.

I agree with this comment by monsterpile: "I also would like a wide tire mini velo. A mini monstercross would be exactly what I would like." A mini monstercross with long chainstays for dirt mountain tours and adequately high BB clearance. Maybe it would be too harsh even with fatties?

Bacciagalupe

20" bikes have more responsive handling, though I've never found it to make a difference in terms of getting around an urban environment.

The handling won't make a difference on the climbs. Mini-velos weigh about the same as their larger-wheeled counterparts.

You can run wider tires, but the smaller wheels are harsher, and smaller tires have more rolling resistance. I.e. in terms of performance it's a wash, and you lose a little bit of comfort.

chaadster

Two things.

First, I've found 20" wheeled bikes to be more stable at very low speeds, such as a walking pace, and if part of getting around an urban environment includes traveling sidewalks or malls with lots of pedestrians, the quick yet stable handling is very welcome. It is also fun!

The other thing I want to mention is that mini velos are great for climbing, because of the quick accelerating wheels. The lower moment of inertia of a 20" compared to a 700C gives each pedal stroke a little more efficiency.

I think Clem's outline of mini-velo as a climbing monster is right on the money. I'd love to have some steep fire roads to grind on mine!

chaadster

That Soma Ensho saddle looks sweet! Great lines! Did you mod larger fenders to fit?

FrogmanM

The fenders are SKS mini mudguards, still tweaking the front to lay off the tire. I have bf member Poguemahone to thank for the Ensho inspiration; looks great and more importantly, my arse approves (for now).

Other than the saddle, I've added cloth rim tape, new tubes, Mr. Tuffy liners and Primo Comets. So far, it has been a fun college bike, and a blast on the local 24 mi. ride.

-Mayo