JakiChan

Funny you mention that.

My bestie and I bought our last TVs at the same time. We ended up at a real Magnolia and had a great sales guy. He set up the 4 TVs we were looking at side-by-side in the demo room, brought in BD players, and left us alone for a few hours. We made it easy for them by coming in at 10 am on a Wednesday. We had a thought out list of things to check with quality reference materials. It's guy was about 20 minutes away from me and about 2 hours travel time for my friend. It was worth it for him, though.

The sales guy can tell you that phosphor trails aren't that bad and that you'll get used to them, but it's also idiosyncratic. He didn't want to give us his opinion, he wanted us to form our own. I saw then right away, my BFF was not bothered. He ended up with a Kuro Elite, I got an XBR6.

All that for just a TV. And if the TV is not right it won't injure you.

roadwarrior

We had that happen one time (at this level of bike). We took the bike back and got the lady something else. She was totally right and the salesperson did not do a good job. And it was a year later.

You don't stay in business in this industry for close to 30 years by not doing the right thing.

roadwarrior

Apparently you spend a lot more time in front of the tv than I do, or you have a ton more time on your hands than me....it is a tv. I don't want to make love to it.

Campag4life

I believe your assertion that RW picks a bike for a customer is ridiculous. Also, it doesn't matter if a rider is a novice or a CAT 1 racer. The customer ultimately decides. This is true with any purchase. I will tell you what is wrong with the bike purchasing dynamic at the bike shop. The problem is that most don't know as much about road bikes as Roadwarrior. If there were more enlightened bike fitters out there, there would be a lot more happy customers. Many ride a poor fit on the road. I see it all the time. I put my lbs in the mix. I will preface that they are very nice people and have been in business for 20 years. The owner never raced and has general knowledge about bikes but that is where it ends. He honestly doesn't know much about road bikes in my experience...especially when it comes to proper fit...or anything about Campy...etc. They also don't carry the highest end bikes...but are a Specialized dealer and sell many mid to upper end bikes.

roadwarrior

I've given up.

Customers can be broken into two groups...the ones that come looking for help and are the ones I try to let know how I can do that by letting them know about experience so they are comfortable. The others are the ones that do research ahead of time or bring a buddy along and about half of what they have accumulated is dubious to flat wrong. You try to work through that, but behavior will not allow them to let someone suggest some additional things to consider. These are the ones that show up six months later complainng about their purchase. We can take care of both but the later group takes a lot more time.

I am just there to answer questions and offer additional information, or correct misperceptions. The thing that's annoying is when they do what they want, then come back complaining. I try to make it a point to make a note file on that so when they do come back they take some ownership for the process.

Btw...i dn't know many cat 1's that buy their bikes....like I was, they are given a bike and told to ride it.

JakiChan

When I spend $3500 on a single item - whether it's a TV or a bike, I do research and evaluations to try and ensure I'm buying what will work best for me. I may not buy high end bikes or high end TVs, but I'm certainly purchasing "better than average". I spent about 4 hours evaluating TVs - it doesn't seem like that much time to me. It was easier - then I knew what I was looking for and what to expect. I would say I relied less on the salesperson in that case because the issues with a given TV technology are much more immediately obvious.

For bike shopping I did gather input from the salespeople in the same shops, but I also appreciated being allowed to actually go ride things. For example, I'm not sure how someone talking to me was going to know if the Domane was too twitchy. *I* found it so - plenty of other folks just as inexperienced as I have enjoyed it.

roadwarrior

We actually set up a test rack for bikes like the Domane so a customer could ride a really rough section of pavement with both a Domane and a Madone. It was/is our Paris/Roubaix track.

I am not picking on you because it is your bike and your money at the end of the day, but a bunch of Radio Shack riders like Jens Voight love the Domane. This is like the lady that came in to look at sidis...she wanted the Wire and was putting down the 6.6 Genius (she could wear a guy shoe). I explained that the shoes had the same sole and the 6.6 now has the adjustable heel stabilizer...she went on and on....I got a picture of Ivan Basso out and showed her that he had used that shoe to win the Giro. I told her we will get you what you want, but know the ride feel...poer transfer...will be basically the same, it's how the upper sets up that is different. The point is simply that we attempt to help the customer make sure they are making the bet purchase for them using (for me) knowledge from being in the sport for many years.

In her case it turned out her friends had the Wire or the Specialized equivalent.

JakiChan

I would debate that. It is possible for folks to do research and actually gather accurate facts when evaluating hardware. Some of us do that for a living.

The LBS that I dealt with is (obviously) a Specialized shop. They had sold me a hybrid and they were the ones I bought my pedals from - they (especially their senior fitter) gave me a lot of support and encouragement, and 5 months after I bought the hybrid I rode it on a century. They were aware of my schedule - if I did worked up to century and was going to be doing more than just riding around town I'd be getting a road bike in the December timeframe.

We talked a lot about bikes and the person I was dealing with had her suggestion. She was sure I'd love the Roubaix, but she also encouraged me to ride anything I could get my hands on. In fact they wanted me to take the bike I was looking at with me to the other shop to ride against the Trek over the same route. (I was uncomfortable with the idea of a $3500 bike I hadn't bough being on the back of my car.) In the end I loved the Roubaix and that's what I bought. But the Trek shop owner was convinced I would love the Domane. I'm not sure, barring test rides, how I would be expected to choose between two bikes that are equipped the same, roughly the same price, from different manufacturers. If there had been a shop that sold both that would have been great - they might have recommended one over the other. But if you're shopping in a certain segment you

I relied on my primary shop heavily. I still do - I got a BG fit there, and as I train for my SF-LA ride they are a great resource for me. But I also felt that with a purchase like this due diligence was called for. And it was encouraged. I also did listen to them - I was pondering if I would want to consider the GF01 and my salesperson shot that down. Most of my information came from a) manufacture's websites, b) AIDS/LifeCycle resources (since that ride was the goal of buying the bike) and c) LBS staff. Maybe you would have thought half of that was wrong, I dunno. But it's been a bit over a month and about 400 miles and no major complaints yet. I love my bike.

JakiChan

That's pretty cool. The local recommended Trek shop did not have their own track. They had a standard 3 mile loop they sent people out on. It was enough for me.

And Boonen loves the Roubaix. I think he did pretty well on it last year. But neither Boonen or Voight have my body, my complications, or my goals. And as you said - when you're on the team you ride what you're given. Me, I didn't love the Domane.

Also, I'm not trying to pick on you either. I'm sure that the in-person experience is much different.

When I needed shoes I said "Hey, I've got wide feet. What should I buy? I hear SIDI has some wide shoes, and so does Specialized." And guess what - we tried on shoes. The SIDI was not comfortable due to the volume of my feet. The Specialized Pro Road fit better. I never came in with a specific shoe in mind. If there had been two shoes that fit I would then ask: "Which one do you think I should buy, and why?" That's my usual approach, actually. Explain the situation and goals, and ask the salesperson what they think I should do. Then if that answer in some way drastically contradicts my own research I start asking question, giving them a chance to correct my information if it's inaccurate or providing additional information if there's something I left out.

So no I don't think it's like that.

roadwarrior

Boonen's Roubaix is custom. It is not the Roubaix you can buy in the store. I am not sure how the Domane could be found to be twitchy since it is set up with a bit longer wheelbase to absorb road vibration. It extends 1.3 cm further on the Domane. Most find them less reactive, but more comfortable on longer rides, but most of the riders looking at these bikes are club riders, not racers and do not care about steering responsiveness.

The lady with the Sidis...she already was in that brand she just wanted to move up and wanted the mot expensive shoe because her girlfriends were wearing that shoe. The whole exchange was pretty amusing. When she saw the price she started asking more questions which is what lead to the 6.6 discussion. An example of gently leading a customer through the process of learning about the product they think they want, and others that are similar.

Sidi does not work for everyone...but given it is, by far the best selling shoe on earth, it covers a lot of feet including most of the pro peloton. I have several pair, along with Giro and Diadora. I am lucky in the I can wear about anything.

StanSeven

RW, Really off topic here (sorry) but I'm like you and can wear about anything in shoes. I'm a big Sidi fan and that's about it for me in shoes except Diadora. But a few months ago I tried on a pair of S-Works to see what they are like. I ended up buying them and they are great. I didn't expect shoes to feel that good.

roadwarrior

I have not tried the S-Works because we don't sell Specialized. Have 2 pair of the Wire from Sidi, old Ergo2, nad adiadora Jet Racer and really like the venting on the Diadora. All are comfortable. In Sidi I actually like the feel of the Ergo better. Go figure. Also have Giro and, funny, that is a really consistent shoe. Have Giro FActors and my rainy day shoe is the Trans.

cccorlew

I can't imagine getting to set up bike set up for a test ride in a way that I would gather useful info.

It takes me forever to get a new bike right. And I'd want my saddle and pedals. I'd prefer my right/front brake set up.

I just go by talking to people and praying a lot.

JakiChan

And the Domane that Cancellara rides is stock? How is Boonen's SL4 frame different from the S-Works SL4?

I am not a racer. I barely can be called a club rider. I am just trying to get from SF to LA without killing myself. I found it to be more responsive than the bike I had been riding, and I didn't like how responsive it was. Several reviews I've read (*after* having bought my bike) talked about it like a good thing - saying it was "livelier" and what not. It was livelier than I wanted.

You keep on talking about what the pros use like it's relevant. How they ride, and their bodies, are completely different. Professional sports self-select for a certain body type which I certainly don't have. (Just check the sig for example.) It's a good bet that they will make something that fits most folks - hey I appreciate the fact that they even acknowledge that wide feet exist. If they had fit I probably would have bought them, just because it's a much more common brand and thus the easiest to find and deal with. Luckily the shop I was had had both SIDI and Specialized in wide sizes, which was a godsend. A lot of shops will only special order wide sizes.

I hate to bring him up again, but I found it interesting that when they gave Boonen the samples/prototypes for the 2013 S-Works road shoe...he refused to give them back. And rode them for wins. Now it may be a case of wearing what the sponsor gives you, but he seemed to like 'em. (Or he's a good actor on video.)

oldbobcat

Why these days I'd rather sell shoes than bikes. Make someone's feet stop hurting on long rides and you become a friend for life. Specialized makes great-fitting shoes and those BG insoles are among the best. Giro and Bontrager are onto something, too, with similar fits and their versions of supportive insoles. Getting corporate buyers to stock half-sizes and wides will always be a problem, though. It's difficult to convince a customer who's been wearing badly fitting shoes that you have a shoe that will fit, but not in stock.

Regarding custom bikes for the pros, I'm hearing that UCI's homologation rules will change that, so sometime this year you should be able to buy a Domane 7 or S-Works Roubaix with a shorter head tube.

roadwarrior

Due to his power output and his extremely long torso they needed to put together something that fit him and could take the abuse he heaps on frames. For example, the top tube length is what you would find on a 61cm frame but the head tube is about half way between a 56 and a 58...he likes a lot of drop...as a result no one would buy that bike. It is why I joke about some of the fits that people take photos of and ask opinions...you've got your bike set up like Boonen which is why it is killing you. If you win as much as he does you pretty much get what you want.

As far as I know the Domane is stock.

When it comes to shoes, it is about comfort and power transfer. Why would a rider not want to consider a shoe that a person who rides all day every day would use? You think you want comfort? Try six to eight hours on a bike every day to about thirty thousand miles. Also, the better soles are thinner and stiffer. The closer you get to the pedal wth your foot, the better your power transfer. Better power transfer means a bit less effort getting to your destination and less weight.

roadwarrior

For manufacturers that make half sizes, we do stock them and now have a custom shoe insert available that takes about a half hour to make. They have been a hit. We also keep Mega shoes in stock in our better selling sizes, which we track.

ncpaul

Road warrior,

I have followed your conversation all the way through. Sometimes I think you are arrogant and at others I think you are truly trying to help Lol So how do you recommend a 40 year old who wants to get back into riding after a 23 year absence go about picking a bike? I am located in NC. about an hr from any bike shop

Thanks

Paul

roadwarrior

Decide how much you want to spend and how you want to use the bike. From there, make sure the shop can show why a particular recommended size is correct for you, and find out if the shop offers any set up or fit opportunities. The further you want to ride the more important all this is. And I am making the assumption that you want a road bike since you are on this forum, versus a hybrid.

Simply put. I would strongly suggest a more forgiving geometry road bike like a Defy, Synpase, maybe a Domane and the model will tie to your budget/price appetite.

It's not arrogance. It just gets comical to discuss certain subjects and the information being provided is not correct. People think bikes are pretty simple and they really are not. So when someone says something like"fitting serivces are a rip off and stupid", or some of the comments on this thread, yeah some of us with years of experience will weigh in. Your mileage may vary.

When folks like Dopolina and Psimet get on a thread, people need to listen. Instead they argue with people that I know have a depth of knowledge from experience that hardly anyone has.

Funny story...met a guy who is a shop owner, huge operation. Millions in bike sales, multiple locations. No test rides, period. None. "well, I would not buy from him...". He does not care.

ncpaul

I was not saying "arrogance" necessarily in a bad way. I am asking your advice because I believe you are trying to use logic. I would have pm you but I don't have enough post. My budget is $3,000.00 plus accessories. I want to get back in shape and possibly race again. I thought the synapse alloy was nice and I could not tell a noticeable difference between it and the carbon synapse. I also really like the supersix. I have been to 4 different bike shops and pretty much they just want to sell what I came in looking for and only suggest something different if they did not have what I was interested in. The trek store seemed the best educated but wanted to put me through a full $275.00 fit before recommending any bike.

What I have tested:
Specialized: Roubaix - felt boring but comfortable
Specialized: Tarmac - Felt stretched out but lively and compliant
Trek: Madone alloy - Felt comfortable and compliant
Cannondale: Synapse alloy - felt comfortable and compliant equal to the Trek
Cannondale: Synapse carbon - felt comfortable and compliant...I could not tell a noticeable between alloy or carbon
Cannondale: CAAD 10 - felt lively I could definitely tell a difference between the alloy and carbon
Cannondale: Supersix - felt lively and compliant it was stretched out more than the synapse. I like the looks and emotional pull of this bike the most but recognize that the synapse may be a better option for me

roadwarrior

KkIf you want to ride somewhat agggressively and maybe get abck into racing, CAAD 10. Best aluminim frame on the market, best tubing, good enough riding frame to support an Ultegra Di2 groupset (expensive bike), and if you wreck the bike because some chucklehead crashes in front of you it will not kill you to replace it. Just make sure you get the right size and get it set up properly for you for now...ie less drop until you get more miles in your legs.

Have fun.

ncpaul

Thanks roadwarrior....now back to how do lbs expect to sell high end bikes. It is still nice to be able to ride a bike before you buy it.

roadwarrior

I will say it one more time:

We allow test rides. You are just not leaving our property. Further, the mentaility that because a person walks through the door instantly makes them a customer, is untrue. Both sides are making decisions on where the interaction will take them. If you want to take the Madone 7.9 on the floor for a joy ride, with it's $11,000 price tag, it ain't happenin'.

Note my comment about the shop that allows no test rides. And he sells millions of dollars of bikes. Millions with multiple locations. No problem.

I have suggested numerous times to folks that walk in who want to tak it out for a weekend, (seriously) to wait for a manufacturer's day. But even they won't let the bike go for more than a couple of hours for a lot of reasons. If that's not what you are looking for, I will shake your hand and wish you luck in your search.

Like the guy that walked in yesterday and insisted that there was a Madone 7.1. Then argued about it. You take them by the hand and show them the Trek website...time you never get back.

ThinLine

+1, I have 9 bikes and did not test ride one of them. I would buy a Specialized Tarmac SL4 or Venge or Giant TCR SL without a test ride. I know bicycles, I know what to expect from geometries, angles, components and tires.
Has a test ride from an educated, researched consumer ever really swayed an opinion?

martl

Here in europe, Specialized have these "concept stores" - for what i know, Specialized has very specific ideas about interior, lighting, display etc. I guess almost anything they offer is on display there.
https://www.specializedconceptstore.net

On the other hand, a test ride on a bike not your size is a bit futile, and even the best and biggest stores won't be able to provide all frames in all sizes for test rides.

Also: the number of rider who claim to "feel" certain characteristics that, by the principles of Newton's physics (pardon me for being an engineer), can't even be measured, i tend to think that a test ride is more voodoo than a valid instrument to chose the right bike for you - if you test ride it, you very possibly already made your choice, at least subconsciously, and just want confirmation/ a first glimpse of the excitement. Typical salesman trick: "Imagine yourself on that cool bike" - helps people opening their wallets.

I'm imaginative enough to not need a test ride for this. A bike ain't a car where i might not like the way the gear shift feels, the softness or stiffness of the suspension, the sound the engine makes, or even the smell of the interior. I already know what a Campy or a Shimano shift feels like, i know the feeling of a Flite against my butt and of Cinelli wrap at my palms. For the geometry, i trust the frame builder and i picked mine with care.

I *would* test ride a new shifting system, and a new saddle if i was in the market for one of these.