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Anyone ever make a cut-out in a regular saddle?

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Road Cycling “It is by riding a bicycle that you learn the contours of a country best, since you have to sweat up the hills and coast down them. Thus you remember them as they actually are, while in a motor car only a high hill impresses you, and you have no such accurate remembrance of country you have driven through as you gain by riding a bicycle.” -- Ernest Hemingway

Anyone ever make a cut-out in a regular saddle?

Old 03-23-13, 05:23 AM
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A good shop will let you try a saddle for a week. A really good shop will let you try a saddle for a month. A great shop will let you try a saddle for 6 months.

Why not try a number of saddles, besides Selle Italia, and see if they work for you?


BTW - I didn't like the Selle Italia either, it was too flat for me. You find your cheap saddle comfortable ... what shape is it? What kind of curves does it have? Is it flat or does it curve up a bit in the back? Whatever the shape of that saddle is, try to find ones like it to try.
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Old 03-23-13, 05:44 AM
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How are you cutting the shell? Dremel?
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Old 03-23-13, 05:57 AM
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Originally Posted by Machka
Let's not forget about the lifetime of cycling behind those nearly 33,000 posts. How many years have you been at it? How much cycling have you done?
I've ridden more miles with a penis than you have.
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Old 03-23-13, 06:05 AM
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Originally Posted by WhyFi
I've ridden more miles with a penis than you have.
Oh good for you! Congratulations! I bet that makes you feel really special. Thanks for sharing.

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Old 03-23-13, 06:22 AM
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Originally Posted by WhyFi
I've ridden more miles with a penis than you have.
Your riding partners may not appreciate that sentiment.
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Old 03-23-13, 06:24 AM
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Originally Posted by Machka
Oh good for you! Congratulations! I bet that makes you feel really special. Thanks for sharing.

It makes me more of an authority on riding with male anatomy than you, since "I've ridden x miles, how many have you?" seems to be your only justification for many of your opinions. As if, for a female, riding any number of miles somehow gleans insight in to perineal pressure that some men (and some women, I gather) feel.
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Old 03-23-13, 06:25 AM
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Originally Posted by ls01
Your riding partners may not appreciate that sentiment.
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Old 03-23-13, 06:29 AM
  #33  
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I think we can all agree that Machka has blatently neglected the biological and anatomical benefits that cutouts provide, but let's leave gender slander out of the thread. Anyway, el cheapo subject saddle is still awaiting glue, but all signs point to a successful first attempt. The saddle I've been using on my bike is relatively flat, with no curving up at the back (which I also feel uncomfortable). The test seat (Oval's 300 series) has the latter, which is why I used it to test. If the test fails, then I'm still left with a saddle that I deem as garbage anyway
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Old 03-23-13, 06:38 AM
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Originally Posted by Gran Fondo
The saddle I've been using on my bike is relatively flat, with no curving up at the back (which I also feel uncomfortable). The test seat (Oval's 300 series) has the latter, which is why I used it to test.
That was one of the big things for me ... flat saddles leave me with lower back pain. I need the curve for extra support or something. And that's one of the things which prompted me to go with a Brooks saddle ... once broken in, they curve. They also offer lots of support for the sitbones.


(And as I said earlier, I ride with a lot of male riders, on a lot of long rides ... many of whom dislike the cutouts as much as I do. I might have thought there was some point to the cutouts if it hadn't been for all the negative comments I've heard about them. So disliking the cutouts isn't just a female thing or just my impression ... and there are a few women actually seem to like the cutouts for some reason)

Last edited by Machka; 03-23-13 at 06:46 AM.
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Old 03-23-13, 06:47 AM
  #35  
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I have recently switched to cut out saddles. I rode Bontrager Inform rl's for years, was never comfortable. This winter I purchased a Selle Italia slr flow on a whim to try and it is fantastic for me. So I have out fitted the rest of the fleet with them. I also bought a couple of rl flows as back ups just in case. They are just as comfortable but a little heavier.
For some the cut out works, for some it doesnt.
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Old 03-23-13, 06:48 AM
  #36  
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Originally Posted by Machka
That was one of the big things for me ... flat saddles leave me with lower back pain. I need the curve for extra support or something. And that's one of the things which prompted me to go with a Brooks saddle ... once broken in, they curve. They also offer lots of support for the sitbones.


(And as I said earlier, I ride with a lot of male riders, on a lot of long rides ... many of whom dislike the cutouts as much as I do. So disliking the cutouts isn't just a female thing ... some women actually seem to like the cutouts for some reason)
That is the whole point. Why take so universal a position - cutouts are bad - when it is clearly an individual preference? You can certainly be right about your own situation, and just as certainly be wrong about trying to extrapolate to everyone. The cutout saddle saved bike riding for me. Why can't you accept that is a truth repeated over and over again by countless riders, but just as in the opposite situation, no not everyone. That is just how it works. You're weakening your assertion with regard to yourself (opening it up to criticism) by overextending it to everyone else. To put it another way, every one of those many miles you have ridden, you were riding with your own back, butt and perineum. You can't speak for any other rider until you can ride with his or her anatomy.

Robert

Last edited by rpenmanparker; 03-23-13 at 06:52 AM.
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Old 03-23-13, 07:00 AM
  #37  
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"I ride with a lot of male riders, on a lot of long rides ... many of whom dislike the cutouts as much as I do" != "cutouts are unnecessary."



From Cervelo's "THE FOUR AND A HALF RULES OF ROAD SADDLES" -

Even on a saddle that’s wide enough, flat enough and firm enough, some people just need a cutout, or a hole through the saddle. If you have a saddle that’s wide enough, flat enough and firm enough and it’s still uncomfortably pressing on the soft tissue under your pubic bone, then you may need a cutout.
The article went on to cite the advice of a female (a physical therapist's assistant) that suggested the following test -

Find a wooden chair or stone bench or other very hard and unyielding seating surface.

Sit on it.

Hinge forward at your hips (don't bend your back) until you can rest your elbows on your knees.

Stay that way for a few minutes.

If your "soft tissues" object to this treatment, it is likely you would benefit from a saddle with a cutout.
If it's a question of authority, I think that I'll put more stock in the opinions of the Cervelo engineers (who have no skin in the saddle game) that came to this conclusion, much of it through pressure mapping of their riders.
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Old 03-23-13, 07:49 AM
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Originally Posted by rpenmanparker
No argument about your observations, but don't you really mean that is how those saddles work for you. The Pro is more comfortable for you. The cutout tends to pinch your bottom. It is impossible to recommend for or against any saddle for any person except yourself.

Robert
Saddle fit has always been a personal affair. That said, to avoid the cut-out pinching effect, the edge of the hole must be very soft and flexible. But a soft surrounding can cause your bottom to sink after a long ride, resulting in discomfort. Additionally, a cut-out that's large enough to relieve pain will most likely compromise the structural integrity of the saddle. The saddle may only last a few thousand miles before hitting the trash. This is why some older well-worn leather saddles are so highly prized. Once the saddle has molded itself to your shape, there is little pressure points, except for the sit-bone areas.
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Old 03-23-13, 07:52 AM
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If the backcountry saddle is comfy, why are are you looking at cutting it out?
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Old 03-23-13, 08:07 AM
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why all of the argumentative points of why it shouldn't be done, It the OP's time and money as well as his interest on doing something different that could benefit his personal riding style..

Regardless of saddles with cut-outs or no cut-out.. Everybody's body is different. Strange that if it isn't right up there with the Pro riders and how, and what they use and how the bikes look it is all completley wrong.. Riding is a unique personal experience to each individual and what they like
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Old 03-23-13, 08:37 AM
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Originally Posted by WhyFi
Let me know when you've spent some time riding a bike with male genitalia between your legs.
now there is an image I didn't need..
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Old 03-23-13, 08:48 AM
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Originally Posted by jdon
now there is an image I didn't need..
You should have seen the Addiction bunghole talks - there were diagrams and everything!
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Old 03-23-13, 09:00 AM
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i ride with nuts too. great riding food along with raisins and banana.
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Old 03-23-13, 09:05 AM
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Originally Posted by furballi
Saddle fit has always been a personal affair. That said, to avoid the cut-out pinching effect, the edge of the hole must be very soft and flexible. But a soft surrounding can cause your bottom to sink after a long ride, resulting in discomfort. Additionally, a cut-out that's large enough to relieve pain will most likely compromise the structural integrity of the saddle. The saddle may only last a few thousand miles before hitting the trash. This is why some older well-worn leather saddles are so highly prized. Once the saddle has molded itself to your shape, there is little pressure points, except for the sit-bone areas.
You make some good points regarding full leather saddles, and I would say that those who can ride full leather saddles and don't mind the weight penalty have a highly desirable solution for their own use. We must never forget, however, that the notion of having to painfully break in a leather saddle dates from a time when no other high quality option existed. I, for one, am not interested in enduring any level of discomfort to break in a leather saddle for many years use, when I can buy a saddle off the shelf that is perfectly comfortable today and weighs only half as much. So what if I have to replace it in a few years. I pay less than $100 each for my favorite saddles, the Terry Falcon Ys. Replacing them is no burden, especially compared to the price of a new Brooks.

The nylon shell of a modern saddle is not likely to be compromised by the cutout. Except for breaking aluminum rails in the days before that frivolous error was abandoned, I have never worn out a saddle with regard to its shell or construction, cutout or otherwise. For me it has always been the cover that gives out or at least gets ratty enough to disqualify further use.

I also disagree with your assertion that the cutout surround has to be soft and flexible. I find no such relationship to pinch avoidance. It is all about shape, not flexibility. On my Terry saddles at least, the area around the cutout is just as firm as the rest of the saddle, and I find that quite firm indeed.

What I find so interesting is that a number of folks don't seem willing to believe the testimony of satisfied users. Why do you wish to detract from cutout saddles in general when so many folks find them completely satisfactory, often superior. The numbers of cutout saddles sold are very significant, perhaps (don't know, just guessing) equal to or more than conventional saddles. What do you think? Is that not so?

Robert
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Old 03-23-13, 09:08 AM
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To weigh in, I love my cutout (Selle Italia SLR Superflow). For trainer duty, I think I actually need an Adamo, since you're seated the whole time, as opposed to shifting and standing. Every saddle without a cutout presses on, shall we say, the root. I would never, however, dream of telling someone else they needed one...
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Old 03-23-13, 09:41 AM
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Originally Posted by rpenmanparker
You make some good points regarding full leather saddles, and I would say that those who can ride full leather saddles and don't mind the weight penalty have a highly desirable solution for their own use. We must never forget, however, that the notion of having to painfully break in a leather saddle dates from a time when no other high quality option existed. I, for one, am not interested in enduring any level of discomfort to break in a leather saddle for many years use, when I can buy a saddle off the shelf that is perfectly comfortable today and weighs only half as much. So what if I have to replace it in a few years. I pay less than $100 each for my favorite saddles, the Terry Falcon Ys. Replacing them is no burden, especially compared to the price of a new Brooks.

The nylon shell of a modern saddle is not likely to be compromised by the cutout. Except for breaking aluminum rails in the days before that frivolous error was abandoned, I have never worn out a saddle with regard to its shell or construction, cutout or otherwise. For me it has always been the cover that gives out or at least gets ratty enough to disqualify further use.

I also disagree with your assertion that the cutout surround has to be soft and flexible. I find no such relationship to pinch avoidance. It is all about shape, not flexibility. On my Terry saddles at least, the area around the cutout is just as firm as the rest of the saddle, and I find that quite firm indeed.

What I find so interesting is that a number of folks don't seem willing to believe the testimony of satisfied users. Why do you wish to detract from cutout saddles in general when so many folks find them completely satisfactory, often superior. The numbers of cutout saddles sold are very significant, perhaps (don't know, just guessing) equal to or more than conventional saddles. What do you think? Is that not so?

Robert
Cut-out is a fad, not much different than low-spoke count wheels. But some users will definitely notice an improvement. This is why mfr still sell traditional saddles. Brooks experimented with cut-out saddle decades ago. There was no significant development in modern material science that would make a cut-out saddle superior to a conventional saddle. I ride a leather saddle for +50K miles. Why spend more money if I don't have to? As for the extra mass, physics dictates that it's a non-issue. But if you believe that you will save more than a tiny fraction of energy and gain in speed with a lighter saddle, then it's your money to spend.

I've never had to endure pain while breaking in a leather saddle. If the leather saddle does not fit OK during the first 200 miles, then one should look for another another solution.

Last edited by furballi; 03-23-13 at 09:45 AM.
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Old 03-23-13, 01:48 PM
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Originally Posted by whyfi
let me know when you've spent some time riding a bike with male genitalia between your legs.
lotflol!
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Old 03-23-13, 01:52 PM
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Originally Posted by Machka
let's keep in mind that you, yourself said .. "I've tried four different expensive saddles with cut-outs, but none were comfortable enough for long rides" ... hmmmm ... maybe a non-cutout saddle might might a better choice ... maybe a better bicycle fit might help ... maybe increased core strength and fitness would be good ...... or maybe hacking up an cheap saddle to put a cutout in it will be the solution.
You gotta admit she's got a point there.

The trick to a comfortable saddle is (apart from all the things Machka said) to ride harder.
When you're riding hard, you hardly need a saddle (pun intended).
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Old 03-23-13, 02:09 PM
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what saddles have you tried? i have a selle italia slr gel flow and it's seriously comfy.
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Old 03-23-13, 02:58 PM
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Originally Posted by HAMMER MAN
Strange that if it isn't right up there with the Pro riders and how, and what they use and how the bikes look it is all completley wrong.. Riding is a unique personal experience to each individual and what they like
Not that I disagree with the sentiment necessarily, but there are some pro riders on cutouts. Being partial to SMPs myself, I'll quote the following from a Velonews article by Zinn on SMP:

Yana Belomoyna, the reigning cross-country mountain bike world champion and silver medalist in the London Olympics, races on SMP saddles, as do Giorgia Bronzini, the 2011 road world champion, and Giada Borgata, the 2012 Italian road national champion. Among male mountain bikers, the Italian Braidot twins, Luca (2012 European championships team relay gold medalist) and Daniele (2012 cross-country world championship bronze medalist) are SMP devotees.

I won't dispute that most pro cyclists seem not to race on cutouts, but I thought it a pertinent point to make in this discussion that some, including female pro roadies, do use such saddles.
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