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Thread: S22

  1. #51
    Senior Member topflightpro's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by cyclezen View Post
    but rear spacing hasn;t changed ? they're using a ZIPP wheel in the report, so other than maybe losing the 1 mm spacer on the inside, the cassette width fits current hubs (don;t see any special hubs in the report), why would dish change?
    The spacing has changed. It's a Zipp wheel built for 11 speed, not 10 speed. They started making those wheels to accommodate Shimano 11 speed.

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    I eat carbide. Psimet2001's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by cyclezen View Post
    but rear spacing hasn;t changed ? they're using a ZIPP wheel in the report, so other than maybe losing the 1 mm spacer on the inside, the cassette width fits current hubs (don;t see any special hubs in the report), why would dish change?
    11spd is a wider freehub driver than 8/9/10. Shimano has had theirs out since last year. It will work for SRAM as well. In general it is the same spacing as the Campy 11 setup but it is all a higher dish and the tension balance isn't as good as it was...not that it was ever great.

    Everyone's 11 spd hubs are in the same boat. Been building with them all. Most hub suppliers are turning off their 10 spd units in fact. Mainly because you just use a spacer and can run a 10spd cassette on the same freehub body.

    As a wheelbuilder who has been building 11 spd wheels for quite a while now....I can tell you that in my opinion the extra cog is not worth the loss in tension on the NDS.

    Zipp is owned by SRAM BTW.

  3. #53
    I eat carbide. Psimet2001's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by grolby View Post
    I'm skeptical of 1x10 setups in cross as it is - they're about as likely to drop the chain (maybe more), but when they do you are really screwed, because you can't get the chain back on nearly as easily. Often because the chain guide meant to prevent a chain drop makes getting the chain back on almost impossible. Kevin Pauwels had his World Championships ruined by this problem. Most elite crossers use double setups in front despite the "obvious" advantages of a single chainring. Maybe a system akin to the XX1 single-ring setup, like you describe, will solve this problem once and for all, but so far I don't see much reason to think 1x11 is the next big thing in cross.
    WAY less likely to have a chain drop. Been running 1x10 for a couple of years and watched everyone most in Chicago switch from 2x to 1x. I can tell you from years of personal experience that I have eliminated ALL - as in every single possible chain drop since switching.

    There is no need for 2 chainrings in cross in the US. The hardest setups in the US have been the wall at Louisville, but even then most top end racers have been able to climb that on a 1x with a 27 cog. Most of the masters worlds racers were racing in 1X setups. The "pro"s or elites race what they are given. Masters usually pay for their gear.

    Kevin Pauwels - supposedly is prone to mechanicals as it is. He was using a K-Edge, but I wonder which one as I have been using the 1X cross one for years on multiple bikes and setups without a single drop. It comes down to how you set them up though.

    Wayne has been riding 1x for years and got me to switch. He was 3rd on the 50+ nats podium to Tilford's win 2 years ago. Didn't race much cross this year.

    I would definitely take and recommend 1x11 or 1x10 for anyone running cross.

  4. #54
    Senior Member grolby's Avatar
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    I agree that cross courses don't merit 2 rings. I'm a decent cat 3 crosser in this region (which is not saying much...) and I'm spending most of my races in the little ring anyway. So if it's actually possible to set up a 1x10 or 1x11 system to truly eliminate chain drop, I am very interested indeed.

    In general, I wouldn't be hugely surprised over the long term to see a move toward more rear cogs and the elimination of the need for multiple chainrings on the road (for racing, anyway), but a number of things are going to have to happen first. Not least of which is everyone biting the bullet and just going to 135mm standard OLD for road hubs. Which should happen anyway. I'm not saying I think getting rid of the front derailleur is likely to happen, but as we get more cogs in the rear, more people are going to contemplate it and want options for setting up their bikes that way.

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    has a Large Member Campag4life's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Psimet2001 View Post
    In general I believe that the bad of extra dishing outweighs the "good" of an extra cog.
    Just how problematic do you believe increased dish i.e. ratio of DS to NDS spoke tension is? I presume wheels maybe fractionally harder to build.
    Are you saying a higher dish wheel with greater disparity in DS and NDS tension reduces durability? Are you seeing more wheel failures because of the increased Shimano 11s dish? Any suggested work arounds for increased dish to cope with side to side spoke tension difference?..i.e. suggest more spokes for same rider weight...radial spokes only on NDS etc?
    Thanks

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    I like using heavier spokes on the drive side. Sapim Race DS with CX Rays NDS or something similar.

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    1337 FPSDavid's Avatar
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    Official promo video:

    Last edited by FPSDavid; 04-15-13 at 08:57 PM.
    2012 Cannondale CAAD10 3

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    Senior Member halfspeed's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Campag4life View Post
    Just how problematic do you believe increased dish i.e. ratio of DS to NDS spoke tension is? I presume wheels maybe fractionally harder to build.
    Are you saying a higher dish wheel with greater disparity in DS and NDS tension reduces durability? Are you seeing more wheel failures because of the increased Shimano 11s dish? Any suggested work arounds for increased dish to cope with side to side spoke tension difference?..i.e. suggest more spokes for same rider weight...radial spokes only on NDS etc?
    Thanks
    Campy's 10 and 11 speed wheels have the same dish. If you're not having problems with 10, you won't with 11.
    Telemachus has, indeed, sneezed.

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    Senior Member WhyFi's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Campag4life View Post
    Just how problematic do you believe increased dish i.e. ratio of DS to NDS spoke tension is? I presume wheels maybe fractionally harder to build.
    Are you saying a higher dish wheel with greater disparity in DS and NDS tension reduces durability? Are you seeing more wheel failures because of the increased Shimano 11s dish? Any suggested work arounds for increased dish to cope with side to side spoke tension difference?..i.e. suggest more spokes for same rider weight...radial spokes only on NDS etc?
    Thanks
    I thought that this was an interesting (but long) video on the differences between more even and less even DS/NDS tension. This video is specific to an off-center rim, as opposed to differences between 10/11 speed hub, but I think that it's still relevant to the problem of having a DS flange closer to the plane of the spoke holes vs farther away (there's even math/vector content in there for you )

    Quote Originally Posted by RollCNY View Post
    I would wager that not riding in Minnesota is just as fatiguing as not riding in New York.

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    has a Large Member Campag4life's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by halfspeed View Post
    Campy's 10 and 11 speed wheels have the same dish. If you're not having problems with 10, you won't with 11.
    Not what I asked but thanks. Maybe I wasn't clear so to restate.
    For years Campy rear wheels had greater dish than Shimano. This was because the freehub was shorter on Shimano. With the advent of a wider freehub to accomodate 11 cogs in back for Shimano, Shimano now has a bit more dish than Campy 9/10s. So my question was directed more to Shimano wheelsets moving forward. Campy rear dish has been criticized by some and some have maintained that Shimano rear wheels with reduced dish have been more 'stable'. This has changed with the new greater dish of Shimano DA 9000 11s and my question is this new greater dish for Shimano problematic for wheel durability in Rob's experience....as he sees a far greater cross section of wheels compared to the average road biker.

  11. #61
    has a Large Member Campag4life's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by WhyFi View Post
    I thought that this was an interesting (but long) video on the differences between more even and less even DS/NDS tension. This video is specific to an off-center rim, as opposed to differences between 10/11 speed hub, but I think that it's still relevant to the problem of having a DS flange closer to the plane of the spoke holes vs farther away (there's even math/vector content in there for you )

    Cool. Thanks. We have talked about 135mm spacing in back becoming the new norm over time and I believe it makes sense as dish grows further. I presume one day there will be 12s in back...maybe more. Hard to say where it will go.
    I do tend to agree with Rob about the downside of rear wheel spoke tension disparity side to side may outweigh the benefit of 11s which promotes tighter gear spacing we all appreciate...or opportunity for a wider climbing cog in back. This however would not dissuade me from going 11s at some point. I just don't feel a real need but as my driveline wears I may consider it. Still believe the cost of 10s Campy replacement parts may still be lower.

  12. #62
    I eat carbide. Psimet2001's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Campag4life View Post
    Not what I asked but thanks. Maybe I wasn't clear so to restate.
    For years Campy rear wheels had greater dish than Shimano. This was because the freehub was shorter on Shimano. With the advent of a wider freehub to accomodate 11 cogs in back for Shimano, Shimano now has a bit more dish than Campy 9/10s. So my question was directed more to Shimano wheelsets moving forward. Campy rear dish has been criticized by some and some have maintained that Shimano rear wheels with reduced dish have been more 'stable'. This has changed with the new greater dish of Shimano DA 9000 11s and my question is this new greater dish for Shimano problematic for wheel durability in Rob's experience....as he sees a far greater cross section of wheels compared to the average road biker.
    It's true. With Campy though...gotta be honest - there's hardly anyone riding it. Fighting to try and achieve a good tension balance with such a severe dishing wasn't so bad when you hardly ever did it. Now it's just about every wheelset.

    The issue is that you're running this balance of what the rims can take (drive side tension) and reaching a minimum tension on the nds to keep the system together while still being able to dish and true it correctly.

    It's a poor design. We need to widen the spacing. It's time.

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    Senior Member halfspeed's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Psimet2001 View Post
    It's true. With Campy though...gotta be honest - there's hardly anyone riding it. Fighting to try and achieve a good tension balance with such a severe dishing wasn't so bad when you hardly ever did it. Now it's just about every wheelset.

    The issue is that you're running this balance of what the rims can take (drive side tension) and reaching a minimum tension on the nds to keep the system together while still being able to dish and true it correctly.

    It's a poor design. We need to widen the spacing. It's time.
    I guess since it's all I do, I've gotten used to it. It helps that I'm building for a 160 lb rider.
    Telemachus has, indeed, sneezed.

  14. #64
    I eat carbide. Psimet2001's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by halfspeed View Post
    I guess since it's all I do, I've gotten used to it. It helps that I'm building for a 160 lb rider.
    Meh...I've gotten used to it, but its an inferior design to Shimano 10 spacing.

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    Senior Member halfspeed's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Psimet2001 View Post
    Meh...I've gotten used to it, but its an inferior design to Shimano 10 spacing.
    No doubt. But like everything else it's a matter of compromises. I'm looking forward to 135mm spacing so we can get to 14 speeds.
    Telemachus has, indeed, sneezed.

  16. #66
    Senior Member donrhummy's Avatar
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    Don't care about 11-speed but hydraulic rim brakes would be a bonus when descending steep mountains with switchbacks.

  17. #67
    has a Large Member Campag4life's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Psimet2001 View Post
    It's true. With Campy though...gotta be honest - there's hardly anyone riding it. Fighting to try and achieve a good tension balance with such a severe dishing wasn't so bad when you hardly ever did it. Now it's just about every wheelset.

    The issue is that you're running this balance of what the rims can take (drive side tension) and reaching a minimum tension on the nds to keep the system together while still being able to dish and true it correctly.

    It's a poor design. We need to widen the spacing. It's time.
    Thanks Rob. Makes sense.

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    Senior Member THSdrummer's Avatar
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    Watched the promo video today. I was pumped before, but I'm stoked now. Really interesting stuff, but it makes me want to put off getting a cross bike (for commuting, gravel grinding, and the occasional cross race).

    I could get a CX bike running 10-speed SRAM for now for pretty cheap, or wait for SRAM 22. It's tempting to wait, especially since I think I may swap the Ultegra off my road bike in favor of SRAM for various reasons.

    The hydraulic brakes will be a nice option, just not sure I'm ready to maintain that. I was going to swing into my LBS and see if the mechanic had any more details on SRAM 22. I'm definitely stoked for it.

    1x10 sounds pretty cool for Cross, and I'd certainly appreciate it commuting. 1x11 would definitely convince me to drop a chain ring in the front. I'm stoked to hear more about SRAM 22, unless the price is more than the current Force and Red groupsets.
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  19. #69
    Mr. Dopolina Bob Dopolina's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by THSdrummer View Post
    1x10 sounds pretty cool for Cross, and I'd certainly appreciate it commuting. 1x11 would definitely convince me to drop a chain ring in the front. I'm stoked to hear more about SRAM 22, unless the price is more than the current Force and Red groupsets.
    The xx1 (1x11) is a stand alone DH group and different from the R22 (but can be integrated?) meaning you can go 1x11 now (when you can find their proprietary xx1 freehubs) or later using the R22 and a Shimano 11spd compatible freehub.

    At least it seems that way from what I've gathered thus far. Can anyone else confirm this?
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  20. #70
    I eat carbide. Psimet2001's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bob Dopolina View Post
    The xx1 (1x11) is a stand alone DH group and different from the R22 (but can be integrated?) meaning you can go 1x11 now (when you can find their proprietary xx1 freehubs) or later using the R22 and a Shimano 11spd compatible freehub.

    At least it seems that way from what I've gathered thus far. Can anyone else confirm this?
    I've been meaning to dive into it. White ind has developed an xx1 driver that can be put into most of their hubs (if not all the freehub models). It was brought to my attention by an local dirtbag (that's what we call those guys on mtbs around here. It's an affectionate term). This is a guy who rides with/grew up with Ben Raby from SRAM. Not the Ben shares anything with him, but they talk gear when they can.

    He approached me about it last summer saying I should dive into it as its perfect for cross. We have 2 SRAM engineers that race on this Chicago Cross circuit. One is a Mtb derail. Engineer and is usually racing for the podium in the men's 1/2/3. He is usually throwing on something interesting, but his bike never really seems to be hanging around anywhere when it's not being ridden. I was sure he would be riding a version of all of this last year, but I never saw anything.

    We did see lots of the hydraulic levers all over the USGP circuit, in local shops here in Chicago, as well as on some local group rides.

    If it strikes my fancy I will try out an xx1 system mix for a 1x11 in cross this year.

  21. #71
    Mr. Dopolina Bob Dopolina's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Psimet2001 View Post
    If it strikes my fancy I will try out an xx1 system mix for a 1x11 in cross this year.
    I spent a bunch of time at TPE show trying to piece this together.

    I know you need their freehub for the xx1 but it is also very limited in terms of cassette choices as it is set-up for DH. The question then becomes if they will offer a closer range cassettes (more suitable for Cross) using the xx1 freehub OR, if you want 1x11 for cross you'll need to use the road cassettes which means Shimano compatible freehubs.



    We will have a xx1 compatible 135OLD 6-Bolt hub ready for Cross this year (hopefully) but we may be a bit early to the party for the aftermarket.
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