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Psimet2001 04-11-13 09:01 PM

S22
 
I'm sure people have been discussing it out here, but I am not out here much right now. Wanted to pass along that I am seeing industry people traveling right now to what appears to be something involving SRAM and S22 or the 11 spd group Caley wrote about at Velo and leaks being heard throughout the industry.

If what I am seeing is even remotely true then expect an announcement in the not too distant future. These are usually events to allow press to get the company speech and take photos, etc so their articles are ready when the stuff is officially announced.

Fwiw - I'd like to go on record to say that as of right now I am REALLY not very pro 11....but then again I'm just a wheel builder. :innocent:

caloso 04-11-13 09:06 PM

Bah. I'm finally coming to accept 10 speed.

Bah Humbug 04-11-13 09:08 PM

Worst-kept secret ever?

Psimet2001 04-11-13 09:09 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bah Humbug (Post 15500947)
Worst-kept secret ever?

Pretty much

StanSeven 04-11-13 09:12 PM

DA turned out much better than most expected so S22 needs to be a good bit lighter and much cheaper to sell

Vlaam4ever 04-11-13 09:18 PM

I really need on more gear. I can barely keep up with 20

Psimet2001 04-11-13 09:18 PM

SRAM seems to have been raising prices substantially with each revision as though they have gained enough market share to feel comfortable moving up from where they had to come in at to gain market share.

I'm not sure they fully realize that if they get too close to Shimano pricing there will be a substantial exodus back.

Bah Humbug 04-11-13 09:22 PM

They're hoping to compete on even footing with Shimano, of course. Now, if they can bring electronic shifting in at a price to undercut Shimano...

Psimet2001 04-11-13 09:42 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bah Humbug (Post 15501002)
They're hoping to compete on even footing with Shimano, of course. Now, if they can bring electronic shifting in at a price to undercut Shimano...

+1- we can dream.

qcpmsame 04-12-13 05:25 AM

Let the 22 come on out, I can hope for some good pricing on a Force or Red/Black grouppo to upgrade from Rival. I like the Rival just fine and if I could find either upper level group at a great price I'd grab one and install it. As far as having I cannot say I needed 20, I was fine back at 10 and then 14 for a long time. I suppose I'll be riding C&V soon since the cogsets get larger and disk brakes are looming over me. I'm an old guy and too set in my ways flame me now and get it over with.:50:

Bill

zatopek 04-12-13 05:51 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Psimet2001 (Post 15500985)
SRAM seems to have been raising prices substantially with each revision as though they have gained enough market share to feel comfortable moving up from where they had to come in at to gain market share.

I'm not sure they fully realize that if they get too close to Shimano pricing there will be a substantial exodus back.

+1 I became a SRAMophile, transitioning over from a single Campy bike and numerous Shimano bikes, in large part due to the affordability and value. In my estimation, SRAM Force has had the best bang for the buck for a number of years now. If prices continue to rise so sharply, SRAM may begin to discourage some of us loyal devotees.

rpenmanparker 04-12-13 06:07 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by zatopek (Post 15501692)
+1 I became a SRAMophile, transitioning over from a single Campy bike and numerous Shimano bikes, in large part due to the affordability and value. In my estimation, SRAM Force has had the best bang for the buck for a number of years now. If prices continue to rise so sharply, SRAM may begin to discourage some of us loyal devotees.

There is certainly a chance of that happening, but if S22 offers anything as unique, novel and functional as the RED 1090 cassette, folks will notice. Weight will be a big determining factor. Can they bring 11s in lighter than the competition? Not only price, but weight was a big factor in their 10s success. Let's see about 11s. That and competent shifting. Not necessarily perceived as good as Campy, perhaps that's too much to ask for, but competent.

THSdrummer 04-12-13 06:21 AM

As long as SRAM stays cheaper and retains its performance and low weight, I believe it'll be alright.

It is frustrating getting a new bike and then finding out most everything is going to 11-speed. The prospect of buying a cyclocross bike in a year with low-end SRAM and not having any upgrade options is disappointing. Not sure if I should wait the 11-speed switch, or proceed with the purchase at this point.

I'd just really like to give SRAM a go, but I can't seem to find a good point to jump on board.

Bah Humbug 04-12-13 07:02 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by THSdrummer (Post 15501742)
As long as SRAM stays cheaper and retains its performance and low weight, I believe it'll be alright.

It is frustrating getting a new bike and then finding out most everything is going to 11-speed. The prospect of buying a cyclocross bike in a year with low-end SRAM and not having any upgrade options is disappointing. Not sure if I should wait the 11-speed switch, or proceed with the purchase at this point.

I'd just really like to give SRAM a go, but I can't seem to find a good point to jump on board.

'Cross is one of the things that doesn't seem to benefit from being 11-speed. Even 10-speed wasn't all that for it, as I understand - I know a lot of people run 9-speed for it. As 11s becomes common, I wonder if anyone will create a dedicated 9-speed CX group.

canam73 04-12-13 07:42 AM

I have it in my head that soon enough there will be a switch to 135mm OLD with road disc and 11/12sp hubs. I might have enough 10 wheels, cassettes and chains to make it until then right now so I'm going to avoid 11 like the plague as long as possible.

Hiro11 04-12-13 08:03 AM

IMO, 11 cogs is ludicrous. To retrogrouch a bit: ~25 years ago, I used to ride very hilly rides with a 6 speed cluster (New England). It wasn't great but it worked fine. 7 was better. I saved up lawnmowing money and moved to 8 with with DA 7402. 8 was perhaps an ideal compromise of gear ratio availability, ease of setup and cassette durability. 9 and 10 speed didn't really add anything and resulted in extremely thin cogs, skinny fast wearing chains and crammed-in clearances. For people like me who live in very flat areas (moved to Midwest) and rarely leave the big ring, I'd argue more than 8 cogs is just not needed.

Now, at best, if we want the latest groups we all need to replace our cassette bodies and potentially redish wheels to jam in a completely superfluous 11th cog. It won't even work with certain wheels and frames. The 9070 cogs are now razor sharp, tinny flakes of ruinously expensive metal that will probably wear out every 3-4K miles. Older 8 speed cassettes and chains wore forever by comparison and weren't any heavier. What is the point? It might make some sense on 1X MTB setups, but for a standard 2X road setup I don't get it.

Edit: just noticed this thread is attracting all of us fogeys. Sorry.

topflightpro 04-12-13 08:24 AM

Bah. I just got the new Red a few months ago. I have no interest in upgrading again. Why did they even bother with this current Red revision if it was just going to be replaced within a year.

Psimet2001 04-12-13 11:41 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bah Humbug (Post 15501851)
'Cross is one of the things that doesn't seem to benefit from being 11-speed. Even 10-speed wasn't all that for it, as I understand - I know a lot of people run 9-speed for it. As 11s becomes common, I wonder if anyone will create a dedicated 9-speed CX group.

Meh...gotta disagree there. 1x11 for cross is the future. It's the only use I can currently see for 11. The SRAM xx1 driver and chainring setup make it an ideal cross setup. You get to ditch a front d, shifter, chain guard, and still maintain a wide range on the cassette. Less things to freeze up in the mud.

After being in the pits at natz and at worlds.....it has its use in cross.....

....but this isn't cross.

On the road it is just not needed and is a "me too" product.

topflightpro 04-12-13 12:06 PM

There are photos of the new groupset on the WW forum. The cranks, and derailleurs and mechanical shifters and brakes, look unchanged, though I am sure the internals of the shifters are different.

caloso 04-12-13 12:08 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by zatopek (Post 15501692)
+1 I became a SRAMophile, transitioning over from a single Campy bike and numerous Shimano bikes, in large part due to the affordability and value. In my estimation, SRAM Force has had the best bang for the buck for a number of years now. If prices continue to rise so sharply, SRAM may begin to discourage some of us loyal devotees.

I have a mostly Red group that is several years old now. I was able to get a good deal through SRAM's "grassroots racing" promotion. It's been on two different bikes and has treated me well. But is there any functional advantage to getting Red over Force, or even Rival? I see some pretty good deals on complete bikes with Rival and was wondering if any Rival users could comment.

canam73 04-12-13 12:27 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by caloso (Post 15503219)
I have a mostly Red group that is several years old now. I was able to get a good deal through SRAM's "grassroots racing" promotion. It's been on two different bikes and has treated me well. But is there any functional advantage to getting Red over Force, or even Rival? I see some pretty good deals on complete bikes with Rival and was wondering if any Rival users could comment.


I'm a Rival user, I have it (or at least mostly Rival) on 3 bikes. I came from Dura-Ace, and bought an original Rival silver group because I wanted to try Sram and thought it would look good on my Waterford. I liked it, although I agree with the stereotypes: it's loud, the front shifting is finicky and the chains don't last that long.


But I liked it well enough that I bought a second group and put it on my cheap aluminum race bike. Due to my buying a 'group in a box' that came with the wrong deraileur I had to buy one at the LBS and they only had Shimano. But for me, a Tiagra FD works fine with Sram and cleans up most of the Sram front shifting woes, and that is still with a silver (non-zero loss) shifter.


This winter I built up a Argon 18 Krypton frame and again stuck with mostly 2012 Rival (shifters, brakes, RD) but subbed in a Force crank (2010 model so the 'weave' look would match the 2012 Rival shifters), Ultegra cassette (wanted 12-23t) and FD ('cuz it works better) and a KMC chain (I like the quick-link). So far I couldn't be happier. Between the Zero-Loss front shifter and Shimano FD I like the front shifting as well as anything. And before I bought any parts I test road everything, including Red with a Yaw FD. Personally, I think the upper end Sram stuff looks cheesy but I wanted to see if it offered a clear advantage. I didn't think it did, so I stuck with I liked.

caloso 04-12-13 12:41 PM

That's really good info. I have subbed out the Red (pre-Yaw) FD. It was the flexy titanium one and switching to Force was a good swap. I also prefer Ultegra cassettes and KMC chains.

I guess I don't see why someone would get Force brifters, though.

canam73 04-12-13 12:51 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by caloso (Post 15503338)
That's really good info. I have subbed out the Red (pre-Yaw) FD. It was the flexy titanium one and switching to Force was a good swap. I also prefer Ultegra cassettes and KMC chains.

I guess I don't see why someone would get Force brifters, though.

Me either. It seems as if Sram is getting closer to the Shimano model where the top group stands out and the next 3 have a lot of over lap.

cyclezen 04-12-13 01:06 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Hiro11 (Post 15502120)
IMO, 11 cogs is ludicrous. To retrogrouch a bit: ~25 years ago, I used to ride very hilly rides with a 6 speed cluster (New England). It wasn't great but it worked fine. 7 was better. I saved up lawnmowing money and moved to 8 with with DA 7402. 8 was perhaps an ideal compromise of gear ratio availability, ease of setup and cassette durability. 9 and 10 speed didn't really add anything and resulted in extremely thin cogs, skinny fast wearing chains and crammed-in clearances. For people like me who live in very flat areas (moved to Midwest) and rarely leave the big ring, I'd argue more than 8 cogs is just not needed.

Now, at best, if we want the latest groups we all need to replace our cassette bodies and potentially redish wheels to jam in a completely superfluous 11th cog. It won't even work with certain wheels and frames. The 9070 cogs are now razor sharp, tinny flakes of ruinously expensive metal that will probably wear out every 3-4K miles. Older 8 speed cassettes and chains wore forever by comparison and weren't any heavier. What is the point? It might make some sense on 1X MTB setups, but for a standard 2X road setup I don't get it.

Edit: just noticed this thread is attracting all of us fogeys. Sorry.

like you said, lotsa retrogrouchin here...
I useta have that affliction, until I tried 10 spd - it has been the '**** that kills' !
and if 11 spd shifts as well and gives me back my 18 in a 12-26 (or 27) spread, then I'm all for it.
I don;t think that 8 spd or 9 spd cogs wear much better - if you change the chain before it stretches too much...
and it's prolly gonna fit the current spread... so whatz the big deal? special chain ? cost a bit more?
I'm open to new '**** that kills'

Bah Humbug 04-12-13 01:08 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Psimet2001 (Post 15503095)
Meh...gotta disagree there. 1x11 for cross is the future. It's the only use I can currently see for 11. The SRAM xx1 driver and chainring setup make it an ideal cross setup. You get to ditch a front d, shifter, chain guard, and still maintain a wide range on the cassette. Less things to freeze up in the mud.

After being in the pits at natz and at worlds.....it has its use in cross.....

....but this isn't cross.

On the road it is just not needed and is a "me too" product.

Interesting. I figured 11-speed would be too finicky for those conditions.


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