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  1. #76
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sabby View Post
    OK, will do.

    The Moto stem is "Ritchey PRO Aluminum 1.125 inch steerer, 31.8 clamp." Is that a short stem? I'm not sure what to make of 1.125 inches and 31.8mm - add them together or even if that means long, short, or medium.


    The Altamira stem is
    Oval 700 3D forged 7050 alloy, 31.8mm, +/-6 degrees





    No, those are the two clamp dimensions. The 1.25" is the steerer tube clamp, and the 31.8 mm is the handlebar clamp. The stem length is a measurement in the usual range of about 60-140 mm in 10 mm increments. So the bike might have a 90 mm stem. The horizontal reach of that stem length is then modified by its angle. The +/- 6 degrees means 6 degrees above and below the perpendicular to the head tube angle. For the Moto that is 73 deg, measured down from the horizontal. So the perpendicular to the head tube which is of interest is at 17 deg above the horizontal (73 + 17 = 90). That means this stem can point at 11 deg above the horizontal, or if you turn it over, 23 deg above the horizontal, i.e. 17 +/- 6. Which direction you point the stem helps fine tune the fit both in horizontal reach and vertical reach. Confused yet? Let me know if you have any questions.

    Robert

  2. #77
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    Quote Originally Posted by Campag4life View Post
    Right. The Fuji's are an excellent basis for comparison to the Moto's you are considering. Make sure to note the stem length on the Fuji's Sabby as you take note of your riding impressions.
    Well done.
    I agree. The Fuji is sized much like the Moto, so the nominal size is the real seat tube length. This is a good choice. And the other dimensions are similar too.

  3. #78
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    Quote Originally Posted by rpenmanparker View Post
    No, those are the two clamp dimensions. The 1.25" is the steerer tube clamp, and the 31.8 mm is the handlebar clamp. The stem length is a measurement in the usual range of about 60-140 mm in 10 mm increments. So the bike might have a 90 mm stem. The horizontal reach of that stem length is then modified by its angle. The +/- 6 degrees means 6 degrees above and below the perpendicular to the head tube angle. For the Moto that is 73 deg, measured down from the horizontal. So the perpendicular to the head tube which is of interest is at 17 deg above the horizontal (73 + 17 = 90). That means this stem can point at 11 deg above the horizontal, or if you turn it over, 23 deg above the horizontal, i.e. 17 +/- 6. Which direction you point the stem helps fine tune the fit both in horizontal reach and vertical reach. Confused yet? Let me know if you have any questions.

    Robert
    OK, so I am totally down with the angle changing the effective length of the stem. Overall, any angle will decrease the pure effective length, but I can imagine that a positive angle vs a negative angle have different impacts on reach, since your butt is positioned at a point higher than the stem. So, a negative angle will increase reach and a positive angle will decrease it. Is that right?

    So, if the stem length of either the Moto or the Altamira are slightly different the reach can be equalized by changing the angle of one of the bikes. Do I have that right?

  4. #79
    has a Large Member Campag4life's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sabby View Post
    OK, so I am totally down with the angle changing the effective length of the stem. Overall, any angle will decrease the pure effective length, but I can imagine that a positive angle vs a negative angle have different impacts on reach, since your butt is positioned at a point higher than the stem. So, a negative angle will increase reach and a positive angle will decrease it. Is that right?

    So, if the stem length of either the Moto or the Altamira are slightly different the reach can be equalized by changing the angle of one of the bikes. Do I have that right?
    Yup...right to all of it. Just goes to show, those with math aptitude like you pick this stuff easy.
    Besides, trig aka geometry is much easier than statistics.

    Below is a stem angle chart which illustrates what you discussed above.
    Attached Images Attached Images
    Last edited by Campag4life; 04-29-13 at 07:54 AM.

  5. #80
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    Quote Originally Posted by Campag4life View Post
    Yup...right to all of it. Just goes to show, those with math aptitude like you pick this stuff easy.
    Besides, trig aka geometry is much easier than statistics.

    Below is a stem angle chart which illustrates what you discussed above.
    Awesome! And more evidence to show my son that you can't go wrong getting some sort of math degree.

    OK, I'll stop posting about this for now. I'll come back after I've had a chance to ride the Altamira.

  6. #81
    Mr. Dopolina Bob Dopolina's Avatar
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    Nice chart.

    It illustrates what I used to talk about on the sales floor nicely.
    BLOG of BOB: Old Guy Racer
    BDop Cycling Company Ltd.: bdopcycling.com, facebook

  7. #82
    has a Large Member Campag4life's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sabby View Post
    Awesome! And more evidence to show my son that you can't go wrong getting some sort of math degree.

    OK, I'll stop posting about this for now. I'll come back after I've had a chance to ride the Altamira.
    You will have to do some soul searching if you want to direct him toward math as a major for sure.
    As a guy who worked in product engineering my whole life, I am very careful to recommend engineering to anybody with affinity for math and science.
    My brother has a master's in physics from a top grad school and taught math for living and just retired early. I believe he would have chosen another path as well. Not easy to be an engineer or a teacher in America today.

  8. #83
    has a Large Member Campag4life's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bob Dopolina View Post
    Nice chart.

    It illustrates what I used to talk about on the sales floor nicely.
    Cheers Bob.

  9. #84
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    Quote Originally Posted by Campag4life View Post
    You will have to do some soul searching if you want to direct him toward math as a major for sure.
    As a guy who worked in product engineering my whole life, I am very careful to recommend engineering to anybody with affinity for math and science.
    My brother has a master's in physics from a top grad school and taught math for living and just retired early. I believe he would have chosen another path as well. Not easy to be an engineer or a teacher in America today.

    I have to say it's great being a statistician. I taught at Emory U for a couple of years. My husband is a tenure track professor there in a different field. He's very stressed about funding and grants. So, I can't say I would recommend to my son to go the academia route. But, government or corporate routes for statisticians are good careers tracks. At least it's been good to me.

    But I am surprised to hear that it's tough to be an engineer.

    I can tell you that, as of right now...he's 12 and he wants to design top tier sports/super cars. So he wants to become an engineer. I cannot, in good conscience, dissuade him from that! It certainly seems sexy and it's definitely STEM. Perhaps it will grow more realistic as he gets older but I think its' a good goal for a 12 year old.

  10. #85
    has a Large Member Campag4life's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sabby View Post
    I have to say it's great being a statistician. I taught at Emory U for a couple of years. My husband is a tenure track professor there in a different field. He's very stressed about funding and grants. So, I can't say I would recommend to my son to go the academia route. But, government or corporate routes for statisticians are good careers tracks. At least it's been good to me.

    But I am surprised to hear that it's tough to be an engineer.

    I can tell you that, as of right now...he's 12 and he wants to design top tier sports/super cars. So he wants to become an engineer. I cannot, in good conscience, dissuade him from that! It certainly seems sexy and it's definitely STEM. Perhaps it will grow more realistic as he gets older but I think its' a good goal for a 12 year old.
    The problem is...each of us have given talents. Take engineering. It is more a calling than a choice. I was tuning my parent's cars when I was 12 years old. Engineering is a very uncertain track based upon global competition and outsourcing of manufacturing. Bike frames are made in Tiawan for good reason. As goes manufacturing, so goes engineering jobs. The dilemma for the college student today is choosing a field with a perceived long term demand. Health care field seems pretty solid with the aging population of boomers howeve some serious headwinds with Obamacare looming. Unclear as to what the future holds for teachers....funding and changing ciricula cloud things...will always need teachers at some level but China may end up manufacturing most things we use in America....or another emerging country where they are kicking out more engineers per capita compared to America. Science majors are way down as you know here...partly because it isn't rewarded.

  11. #86
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    Quote Originally Posted by Campag4life View Post
    The problem is...each of us have given talents. Take engineering. It is more a calling than a choice. I was tuning my parent's cars when I was 12 years old. Engineering is a very uncertain track based upon global competition and outsourcing of manufacturing. Bike frames are made in Tiawan for good reason. As goes manufacturing, so goes engineering jobs. The dilemma for the college student today is choosing a field with a perceived long term demand. Health care field seems pretty solid with the aging population of boomers howeve some serious headwinds with Obamacare looming. Unclear as to what the future holds for teachers....funding and changing ciricula cloud things...will always need teachers at some level but China may end up manufacturing most things we use in America....or another emerging country where they are kicking out more engineers per capita compared to America. Science majors are way down as you know here...partly because it isn't rewarded.
    Of course China is emergent but Africa is bleeding it's science and math people constantly. They go to the UK or the US or China for jobs. If various African nations can get their act together they'd be emergent, too. As it is, China is pilfering Africa at a greater rate than we are. It's almost like an industrial colonization of Africa.

  12. #87
    has a Large Member Campag4life's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sabby View Post
    Of course China is emergent but Africa is bleeding it's science and math people constantly. They go to the UK or the US or China for jobs. If various African nations can get their act together they'd be emergent, too. As it is, China is pilfering Africa at a greater rate than we are. It's almost like an industrial colonization of Africa.
    The whole migration of manufacturing jobs in America to other emerging countries as you know is do to affluence...we are a victim of it...if a country can be victimized by its own weath. Chinese engineers still make 10% of what American engineers make. Plus labor rates are much lower. So it isn't much of surprise that since they are kicking out 5x's the engineers per capita than we are, that they will be perhaps one day supreme. Of course the same dynamic will befall them..they too will become wealthy as their manufacturing burgeons. The world is basically a big heat transfer equation...we are cooling off after an incredible and unprecedented wealth accumulation and now other's have to some hope to capture their version of the American dream.

  13. #88
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    Quote Originally Posted by Campag4life View Post
    The whole migration of manufacturing jobs in America to other emerging countries as you know is do to affluence...we are a victim of it...if a country can be victimized by its own weath. Chinese engineers still make 10% of what American engineers make. Plus labor rates are much lower. So it isn't much of surprise that since they are kicking out 5x's the engineers per capita than we are, that they will be perhaps one day supreme. Of course the same dynamic will befall them..they too will become wealthy as their manufacturing burgeons. The world is basically a big heat transfer equation...we are cooling off after an incredible and unprecedented wealth accumulation and now other's have to some hope to capture their version of the American dream.
    I've actually thought of this as some sort of energy transfer cycle before.

    Thing is, with China, they won't be paying their labor better anytime soon due to their lack of human rights. They're going to force the wealth to stay low to keep it coming.

  14. #89
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sabby View Post
    I've actually thought of this as some sort of energy transfer cycle before.

    Thing is, with China, they won't be paying their labor better anytime soon due to their lack of human rights. They're going to force the wealth to stay low to keep it coming.
    Quite possibly. One thing for sure...I have an engineering friend that has spent a lot of time there...is...their political system while keeping wages low, isn't conducive to the same level of creativity that comes from a more diverse culture like America. So even though there maybe some economic reasons to make products there, their society will not create the next Steve Jobs..or less likely...or doesn't encourage this level of creativity or entrepreneurship.
    Its kind of like the design creativity that comes out of Italy...one of the most beautiful places on the planet. China is the anti-Italy...lol.

  15. #90
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    Quote Originally Posted by Campag4life View Post
    Quite possibly. One thing for sure...I have an engineering friend that has spent a lot of time there...is...their political system while keeping wages low, isn't conducive to the same level of creativity that comes from a more diverse culture like America. So even though there maybe some economic reasons to make products there, their society will not create the next Steve Jobs..or less likely...or doesn't encourage this level of creativity or entrepreneurship.
    Its kind of like the design creativity that comes out of Italy...one of the most beautiful places on the planet. China is the anti-Italy...lol.
    I work with a lot of Chinese, both nationals and naturalized citizens. It's a terrible stereotype but I've noticed it's definitely true there's a quality of intellectual meekness and an unwillingness to try to assert over someone higher in the career status ladder. Now, about a third of the Chinese I've worked with have overcome this cultural training and taken to more American aggression, and they do quite well.

    But if China maintains the current culture then I would have to agree with you.

  16. #91
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    OK, I'm heading out to Performance Bike to try that Altamira. I may not be able to photograph it or video it, but I'll try.

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    I'm sure campag may just have a field day with me but I don't mind posting a shot of me on my lechamp - as mentioned earlier I'm just under 5'9" and ride the 51. Not sure if it would help with perspective, though.

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    Quote Originally Posted by megalowmatt View Post
    I'm sure campag may just have a field day with me but I don't mind posting a shot of me on my lechamp - as mentioned earlier I'm just under 5'9" and ride the 51. Not sure if it would help with perspective, though.
    Hey Matt, yes, if you have a side view pic do post it!

    OK, I really am off to the shop now!

  19. #94
    has a Large Member Campag4life's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by megalowmatt View Post
    I'm sure campag may just have a field day with me but I don't mind posting a shot of me on my lechamp - as mentioned earlier I'm just under 5'9" and ride the 51. Not sure if it would help with perspective, though.
    I would like to see that Matt.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Sabby View Post
    So, after a lot of thought and experimentation I am really REALLY leaning towards the Motobecane Ti from BD. I've not 100% decided, so I'm still open. But this is the only Ti bike I can afford - I'd really like a Ti bike after always having steel. I don't like the way alu feels and I can't afford really lightweight steel. Carbon is my second choice.

    $1700 is my absolute max but I'd rather not go over $1500.


    This one, in particular: http://www.bikesdirect.com/products/...heat_rival.htm

    It says it's $1700 but once you put it in the cart it's $1500.

    If I find myself with an extra $400 (un-****ing likely) then I would get the next one up: http://www.bikesdirect.com/products/...hamp_ti_10.htm


    So, now I have to figure out whether or not to get the 48cm or the 51cm.

    Here are my body measurements. Sorry for the cramped label and measurement but even if I put in spacing it goes away once I hit submit.

    Body Part cm
    --------------------------------
    Inseam 76
    Trunk 58
    Forearm 29.5
    Arm 58
    Thigh 58.5
    Lower Leg 51
    Sternum Notch 135
    Total Body Height 163


    Here are my fit results from competitive cyclist:

    Measurement
    --------------------------------
    C-C 49-50
    C-T 50-51
    TT 49-50
    Stem 10
    BB-Saddle 64.5-66.5
    Saddle-HB 46-47
    Saddle setback 3.6-4


    Here is the bike geometry for this bike for the 48 and 51:

    Motobecane 48cm 51cm
    -------------------------------------------
    C-T 48cm 51cm
    Top Tube 535 540
    Chain Stay 405 405
    BB Drop 68 70
    Fork Offset 43 43
    Head Tube Angle 73 73
    Seat Tube Angle 74 74
    Wheel Base 970 975
    Stand Over 28.7 29.9
    BB Height na na
    Head Tube Length 110 130




    I feel like I am right in between. Maybe a 50.


    Can I get some opinions on which would be better or just opinions?


    Aside: I've decided not to develop a relationship with any of the multiple LBSs around here. Not because they're not good but because I know I won't go there for repairs or parts. I'm going to do the work myself. While I've only done minor gear/brake tuning, etc, on my mtb I am confident I can service my own bike. I'm extremely, extremely handy. I've replaced the suspension in my minivan (both struts and shocks - took me about 7 hours, though), installed ceilings in my house, replaced my back porch, rewired my kitchen, laid down tile floors, and a lot more. Some of it with help from my husband but a lot of it by myself with the internet for referencing. So, I know me. If I have a problem with my bike I'm going to put it on my bike stand and do it myself - looking it up on youtube or getting advice from my brother.
    OP; For one, I have no ideas regarding you facination with Ti as a singlular choice for frame material... nothing really wrong with it, but I can't see it as a compelling decision point especially if it pushes against your budget and causes you to accept limits in other important areas. But, ok if that is what makes you smile. Most folks agree that they are pretty after a fashion.

    But given that you are locked in on Ti and you have obviously gotten something to measure with, then recommend remeasuring to get your Stand Over Height or SOH; This is the distance from the floor, wearing your bike shoes/socks, up to the family jewels "almost ouch" point.

    Just follow any of the sites that tell you how to stand against a wall and slide a book up until it starts to almost hurt. This is not your inseam measurement (many variations on that). Subtract the bottom bracket height from the SOH to get your basic frame size (seat-tube length (+/- an inch or two) for basic shopping purposes. If your bike maker can't provide the BBH, then wag it as ~26 cm (10.5 inches). When you have 4-5 bikes in the range with the components you want, then rank them by price. If a Ti one is in the right range, then easy smiles to be had...

    Bottom line is that;; If you scramble your family jewels the first time you dismount, then your riding will be rather limited for quite a while no matter how well the rest of the bike fits you; whether its titanium or carbon or steel or bamboo.

    Hope that helps
    /K

  21. #96
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    Quote Originally Posted by Campag4life View Post
    You will have to do some soul searching if you want to direct him toward math as a major for sure.
    As a guy who worked in product engineering my whole life, I am very careful to recommend engineering to anybody with affinity for math and science.
    My brother has a master's in physics from a top grad school and taught math for living and just retired early. I believe he would have chosen another path as well. Not easy to be an engineer or a teacher in America today.
    I agree with you completely, but raise the question: well what field can a kid go into? I loved my chemistry career, but see how tough it will be for those that follow to have the same opportunities, benefits, job security, interesting assignments, the whole works. Problem is, everyone is saying the same thing about their careers. Doctors, lawyers, even Indian chiefs. And don't even start about journalists. Their jobs are disappearing every day. Just about the only ones who aren't complaining (uh oh, here it comes) are accountants. And who wants to do that in the first place?

    Seriously, what can you tell your kids and grandkids to do?

  22. #97
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    Quote Originally Posted by ksisler View Post
    OP; For one, I have no ideas regarding you facination with Ti as a singlular choice for frame material... nothing really wrong with it, but I can't see it as a compelling decision point especially if it pushes against your budget and causes you to accept limits in other important areas. But, ok if that is what makes you smile. Most folks agree that they are pretty after a fashion.

    But given that you are locked in on Ti and you have obviously gotten something to measure with, then recommend remeasuring to get your Stand Over Height or SOH; This is the distance from the floor, wearing your bike shoes/socks, up to the family jewels "almost ouch" point.

    Just follow any of the sites that tell you how to stand against a wall and slide a book up until it starts to almost hurt. This is not your inseam measurement (many variations on that). Subtract the bottom bracket height from the SOH to get your basic frame size (seat-tube length (+/- an inch or two) for basic shopping purposes. If your bike maker can't provide the BBH, then wag it as ~26 cm (10.5 inches). When you have 4-5 bikes in the range with the components you want, then rank them by price. If a Ti one is in the right range, then easy smiles to be had...

    Bottom line is that;; If you scramble your family jewels the first time you dismount, then your riding will be rather limited for quite a while no matter how well the rest of the bike fits you; whether its titanium or carbon or steel or bamboo.

    Hope that helps
    /K

    Hi K,

    So, in my sock feet it's 30 inches from floor to crotch, without putting pressure on the crotch.

    As for my heavy bias towards Ti...I'm not sure why I have it. I remember when I was in my early 20s and worked at a pizza joint. A kid there (he was probably 18) had just bought a Ti frame off someone and built up his bike himself. He was the first person I ever knew who was into cycling. The second was my brother, who got into it in college in his early 20s...and we went to the same college and were two years apart. And this in a town that didn't have a cycling culture at the time (does now).

    So, perhaps it comes from that, but that is such a weak link I suspect it has more to do with my overall preference for steel. I feel Ti will be like steel, only lighter.

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    Quote Originally Posted by rpenmanparker View Post
    I agree with you completely, but raise the question: well what field can a kid go into? I loved my chemistry career, but see how tough it will be for those that follow to have the same opportunities, benefits, job security, interesting assignments, the whole works. Problem is, everyone is saying the same thing about their careers. Doctors, lawyers, even Indian chiefs. Just about the only ones who aren't complaining (uh oh, here it comes) are accountants. And who wants to do that in the first place?

    Seriously, what can you tell your kids and grandkids to do?

    Be a statistician! I can honestly say I've had no problems climbing the ladder and I've never been unemployed. To be American and a statistician is a rare joint probability so you become a desirable commodity.

    The two stats fields with the best chance of jobs are, in order, (1) public health (aka biostatistics) and (2) finance (aka econometrician). I'm public health.

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    Quote Originally Posted by ksisler View Post
    .

    Subtract the bottom bracket height from the SOH to get your basic frame size (seat-tube length (+/- an inch or two) for basic shopping purposes.
    /K
    Well not exactly depending upon how the frame size is arrived at. If the frame size is the traditional kind (seat tube measured up to horizontal top tube), then your formula will be the old standby and not a bad place to start. But if the frame sizes are the same as the seat tube length up to the sloped top tube, then your formula would normally yield a really large result. One would end up riding a really large frame just because the sloped top tube makes it possible. I don't think that is the intent of modern compact designs.

    Having said all that, it does seem like OP may need a somewhat large frame (relatively speaking) to get some needed heat tube height and top tube length. I just wouldn't want all the readers of this to think they need such large bikes.

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    OK, I rode the Altamira and it felt pretty good. Maybe a touch long, but the stem on it was 110mm. The standover height was perfect. It seemed to be an inch from the lady parts.

    Here's a photo of the bike:

    Altamira2.jpg

    I couldn't get a photo of it next to me for perspective because the saleslady was inundated with people. But she did take the time to take the video.



    So, what do you think? Here's the comparison between the Altamira 50 and the Moto 51:

    Brand Moto Fuji Altamira
    Size 48 51 47 50
    Measurements
    Top Tube Length 535 540 530 545
    Head Tube Length 110 130 120 130
    Seat Tube Angle 74 74 74.5 73.5
    Notes
    Standover Height 28.7 (728.9) 29.9 (759.5) 741.4 760.4
    Stem length 100 110

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