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  1. #76
    OM boy cyclezen's Avatar
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    so we're back at the same place we come to about every 3 weeks (or sooner...) the compact-STD-triple debates
    none of which are wrong and none of which changes many minds....

    Ideally, what I want is 20 good gears, and for me that is what I think E-lec-tronic shifting should be... not E-lec-trick...
    I WANT
    A drivetrain with gearing you can enter into a dashboard and get the gear ratios you want, without overlapping. Soz I can have the gears where I think they would do the most good, with the spacing I want... between each gear ratio...

    you know, like, it's Hammerfest Sat, and I pick the ratio range for fast and flat - 20 gears between 120 and 65 inches - nice!
    or it's the Everest challenge and I want a 140 inch up top, then maybe something 100ish, 90ish, 80ish, 70ish, 60ish and the rest lumped between 50 and 20 inches...
    YEAH! datz what I'm tawkin aboot!

    NOT what we now have, which is like a flying Jenny steered by a wire between the legs
    AND NOT like DI2, which is like a flying Jenny steered by electric wire between the legs

    I mean, DI2 doesn;t do any more **** than what is/isn;t already happening when I tug on the wire...
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  2. #77
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    Quote Originally Posted by cyclezen View Post
    so we're back at the same place we come to about every 3 weeks (or sooner...) the compact-STD-triple debates
    none of which are wrong and none of which changes many minds....

    Ideally, what I want is 20 good gears, and for me that is what I think E-lec-tronic shifting should be... not E-lec-trick...
    I WANT
    A drivetrain with gearing you can enter into a dashboard and get the gear ratios you want, without overlapping. Soz I can have the gears where I think they would do the most good, with the spacing I want... between each gear ratio...

    you know, like, it's Hammerfest Sat, and I pick the ratio range for fast and flat - 20 gears between 120 and 65 inches - nice!
    or it's the Everest challenge and I want a 140 inch up top, then maybe something 100ish, 90ish, 80ish, 70ish, 60ish and the rest lumped between 50 and 20 inches...
    YEAH! datz what I'm tawkin aboot!

    NOT what we now have, which is like a flying Jenny steered by a wire between the legs
    AND NOT like DI2, which is like a flying Jenny steered by electric wire between the legs

    I mean, DI2 doesn;t do any more **** than what is/isn;t already happening when I tug on the wire...
    You're about 20 years too late. Back in the freewheel days we did that all the time. All the cogs came off the freewheel base individually. You assembled the set of cogs you wanted for that particular use. Of course back then you had to make more choices. 11 speeds fills in all the gaps we used to have to leave. Come to think of it, what is it you can't do now? So you have a couple or three cassettes, 11-23, 11-26, 12-32 or whatever. How doesn't that solve all your ride-specific problems>

  3. #78
    Ding! Bandera's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by cyclezen View Post
    I mean, DI2 doesn;t do any more **** than what is/isn;t already happening when I tug on the wire...
    Except when the battery is dead.

    "I'm sorry, I can't go for a bike ride with you because my shifter-thingy battery is dead and I'm waiting on the Fed-Ex guy w/ a new one.
    Do they come pre-charged?"

    Sorry (not really).

    -Bandera
    '74 Raleigh International - '77 Trek TX900FG - '92 Vitus 979 - '10 Merckx EMX-3- '11 Soma Stanyan

  4. #79
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    Quote Originally Posted by Drew Eckhardt View Post
    I said that full-sized doubles with a 23-26 big cog work great for guys making 3.5W/kg living in the Colorado Rockies (been there, done that) and the rest of us living in sufficiently flat places (been there, done that too). There's a lot of wiggle room there.

    I'd like to be able to buy new equipment which suits my tastes and that was looking less likely as lemmings leapt on the compact band wagon. Keeping the triple crank dream alive on-line reduces the chances of that happening. Campagnolo has seen the market demand and is now shipping 3x11 combinations, and Shimano hasn't joined SRAM's move to a compact only lineup. OTOH 13 starting cogs are going away and SRAM is double-only with no 18 tooth cogs.

    I'll stop posting the same rant when other people stop asking the same gearing questions over and over, people stop suggesting everyone needs an 11 cog, "compact" isn't the most common response to "my gears aren't low enough," or I get tired of it.

    The same gearing questions have been recurring for decades on the internet, people aren't going to stop the push for 11 tooth starting cogs until 10 tooth ones come from the big manufacturers, and I've grown a lot more patient with age.
    You may be more patient but you do sound like a condescending d-bag. Why not just state your preferences without the snide comments on what others prefer?

  5. #80
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    Quote Originally Posted by ricohman View Post
    My 12-27, 50-34 compact drove me nuts. Still does. I live on the flats and its cross chain city.
    I swapped the compact for a standard road to gain all my sweet spots back. And the 39-27 was great for hills.

    My new CAAD10 has an SL-K carbon compact. I would like to swap the rings, but I cannot find any FSA rings for sale individually.
    I'd like to try the mid-compact.
    Are you kidding me? On ebay there are 783 listings under "FSA chain ring" and 30 with the added specification of "36". You haven't been looking in the right place.

  6. #81
    Ding! Bandera's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by rpenmanparker View Post
    Come to think of it, what is it you can't do now? So you have a couple or three cassettes, 11-23, 11-26, 12-32 or whatever. How doesn't that solve all your ride-specific problems>
    You got that right; when I converted my old Vitus to 20 speed I thought: "OK, now I have a 13-25 straight block w/ climbing gears. Sweet!"

    Solved 13-19 or 13-21 or 13-23 for today?

    Technology really is easier on the rider today, but we still kvetch.

    -Bandera
    '74 Raleigh International - '77 Trek TX900FG - '92 Vitus 979 - '10 Merckx EMX-3- '11 Soma Stanyan

  7. #82
    token triathlete Bah Humbug's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bandera View Post
    Except when the battery is dead.

    "I'm sorry, I can't go for a bike ride with you because my shifter-thingy battery is dead and I'm waiting on the Fed-Ex guy w/ a new one.
    Do they come pre-charged?"

    Sorry (not really).

    -Bandera
    Eh, we (mostly) have Garmins to charge more often anyway, and is there any difference between a Di2 brifter breaking vs a mechanical one?

  8. #83
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bandera View Post
    You got that right; when I converted my old Vitus to 20 speed I thought: "OK, now I have a 13-25 straight block w/ climbing gears. Sweet!"

    Solved 13-19 or 13-21 or 13-23 for today?

    Technology really is easier on the rider today, but we still kvetch.

    -Bandera
    Nice touch! You don't hear such apt descriptions on the 41 that often.

  9. #84
    token triathlete Bah Humbug's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by gregf83 View Post
    You may be more patient but you do sound like a condescending d-bag. Why not just state your preferences without the snide comments on what others prefer?
    After this last round of his rant I just tossed him on the Ignore pile. I've read it too many times to bother with anything else he has to say.

  10. #85
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    I'm not a racer. I'm fine with my 50-34. But I am not fine with my 11-28 cassette. Sometimes I need a bailout gear and will be more than happy to get a 32 in the back.

  11. #86
    Senior Member 99Klein's Avatar
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    Tried the compact and didn't like it. It's pretty flat around here but give me a triple for climbing if Ihave to.

    The 34 was useless. Spent my time constantly shifting trying to find the "right" gear. I need a 39 as i spend about equal time in both rings.

    Another thing, everyone talks about front shifting on compacts, but shifting in the rear in the small ring is also not as crisp due to less tension in the chain.

    I dont doubt they are fine for some, but they are not for everyone.
    When you argue with an idiot, from a bystanders point of view, it may be hard to discern which is the idiot. (dis·cern: Verb - Perceive or recognize)

  12. #87
    Ding! Bandera's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bah Humbug View Post
    is there any difference between a Di2 brifter breaking vs a mechanical one?
    Yes, one is mechanically operated and the other relies on a battery powered motor to shift. When the other's battery is not charged it does not function. It is not broken, "it is dead". There is no such thing as a "dead" cable, leave a mechanical bike hanging unattended for weeks or months or years and it will function properly. Batteries are inherently less reliable.

    -Bandera
    '74 Raleigh International - '77 Trek TX900FG - '92 Vitus 979 - '10 Merckx EMX-3- '11 Soma Stanyan

  13. #88
    Senior Member RollCNY's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by 99Klein View Post
    Another thing, everyone talks about front shifting on compacts, but shifting in the rear in the small ring is also not as crisp due to less tension in the chain.
    Could you explain this please? Are you saying the 16 tooth drop makes the chain too slack?

  14. #89
    token triathlete Bah Humbug's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bandera View Post
    Yes, one is mechanically operated and the other relies on a battery powered motor to shift. When the other's battery is not charged it does not function. It is not broken, "it is dead". There is no such thing as a "dead" cable, leave a mechanical bike hanging unattended for weeks or months or years and it will function properly. Batteries are inherently less reliable.

    -Bandera
    Weird... I have a lot of batteries in my life. Not one has completely died without warning. I have had a mechanical.brifter break. I trust electronics, and my ability to be responsible enough to charge a battery, more than I trust tiny mechanical parts.

    And cables do break, resulting in a dead brifter. Yes, bike shops have cables. They also have Di2 batteries, at least where I am. Unless charging a battery when you charge your Garmin is really hard for you, you shouldn't have an issue.

  15. #90
    got the climbing bug jsigone's Avatar
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    50/34 give me options to use full range of different cassettes. 11-23 for most rides but 12-25 for billy goating up some mt and 12-27 for billy goating + 10kft type century.

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    Quote Originally Posted by 99Klein View Post
    Another thing, everyone talks about front shifting on compacts, but shifting in the rear in the small ring is also not as crisp due to less tension in the chain.
    what? That doesn't even make sense if you are using a RD with the correct capacity.

  17. #92
    Ding! Bandera's Avatar
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    [QUOTE=99Klein;15650934]but shifting in the rear in the small ring is also not as crisp due to less tension in the chain.QUOTE]

    ??????

    Nonsense, perhaps you need a new mechanic.
    Modern mechanical drivetrains are relentlessly & boringly efficient, it takes a bit of ham-handed/neglect/abuse to make them do anything but shift cleanly and quickly. Pull your cables, lube them and check for badly cut housing if you are having shifting problems. Might as well check chain length and replace if necessary.

    -Bandera
    '74 Raleigh International - '77 Trek TX900FG - '92 Vitus 979 - '10 Merckx EMX-3- '11 Soma Stanyan

  18. #93
    OM boy cyclezen's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by rpenmanparker View Post
    You're about 20 years too late. Back in the freewheel days we did that all the time. All the cogs came off the freewheel base individually. You assembled the set of cogs you wanted for that particular use. Of course back then you had to make more choices. 11 speeds fills in all the gaps we used to have to leave. Come to think of it, what is it you can't do now? So you have a couple or three cassettes, 11-23, 11-26, 12-32 or whatever. How doesn't that solve all your ride-specific problems>
    not what I mean...
    I still have enough regina and suntour winner cogs to build multiple freewheels. And have shimano cassette cogs so I can 'rebuild' current 10 spd shimano cassettes...
    not what I mean...

    What I mean is:
    no overlapping gear ratios - straight up and down from high to low. handled by a chip controller which adjusts a rear gearing mech which has the ability to do variable gearing rations say in some increment of (arbitrarilly) - gear inches - (since I don;t 'image' gain ratios well) of say 1 inch increment...
    1 front ring - no FD - we lose the whole front shift/chaindrop/trim bull****
    1 rear differential mech which have the ability to be set to any gear ratio, between some top and bottom values. All handled by the electronic controller, which you can program either individually or have pre-set options you can dial in - realtime.
    190 km stage - 145 km of flat then a mtn top finish. first climbing the telegraph and then up to the Galibier... You use one preset for flat, then when you hit the climbing section you change to another option/preset of gear ratios just for the climb.
    Thinking about it, I don;t even need 20 - 12 to 15 'gear ratio' in a preset would do fine... of course that won;t stay there cause 'more is better', so we'll all be tawkin on BF about the new computer/controller which can have 40 distinct gear ratios...
    could be part of a rear hub which also contains a Power meter and who knows what else...

    yeah, now we're tawkin a $2500+ rear hub... the apple II of the next Gen of cycling componentry...

    yeah, and somebody will come up with the Comodore 64, or the Timex, or the IBM PC versions...
    then there'll be a cute Mac, and maybe 50 yrs from now, an 'iphone' level...
    I mean, we're only 30+ years behind that curve...
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  19. #94
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    I'm not sure what a "historical" argument has to do with what gearing is best suited for anyone. People got along fine before the gearing you use existed as well. Does that make you a mindless lemming?

  20. #95
    Ding! Bandera's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bah Humbug View Post
    Weird... I have a lot of batteries in my life. Not one has completely died without warning. I have had a mechanical.brifter break. I trust electronics, and my ability to be responsible enough to charge a battery, more than I trust tiny mechanical parts.
    "Not one has completely died without warning." Come on now..what about your Casio watch, TV remote, X-Box or 9.5V drill?

    Not to belabor the point but: Modern Mechanical bicycle shifting systems are currently inherently more reliable than Electronic systems.

    Your E-system depends on "tiny mechanical parts", glad you keep it charged, really I am.

    And what's a "Garmin"?

    Back to Compact Cranks vs Godzilla.

    -Bandera
    '74 Raleigh International - '77 Trek TX900FG - '92 Vitus 979 - '10 Merckx EMX-3- '11 Soma Stanyan

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    I've worked on many bikes that were just left sitting around for years and almost never have they "just worked".

    Di2, on the other hand, warns you several hundred miles before the battery dies and once it gets low enough it will disable the FD but keep the RD working to get you home. It is less likely to leave you stranded than a broken cable. Or the multiple times my ever simple and loved by retrogrouches downtube shifters loosened up and left me stuck in my highest gear in the back. But I'm sure I imagined that.
    Last edited by Nerull; 05-21-13 at 04:15 PM.

  22. #97
    Ding! Bandera's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nerull View Post
    I've worked on many bikes that were just left sitting around for years and almost never have they "just worked".

    Di2, on the other hand, warns you several hundred miles before the battery dies and once it gets low enough it will disable the FD but keep the RD working to get you home. It is less likely to leave you stranded than a broken cable.
    Nerull,

    Either they didn't "just work" before they were "sitting around" or were stored improperly or both.
    Notice that I typed: "leave a mechanical bike hanging", by which I meant my favored storage method, hanging by the rear wheel in a dry covered and locked area not left "sitting around". It's the difference between preserved and abandoned.

    "Or the multiple times my ever simple and loved by retrogrouches downtube shifters loosened up and left me stuck in my highest gear in the back."
    There is a fitting on the side of the lever to be properly tensioned, a grouchy twist and not loose anymore. If that doesn't work the lever is worn and a new battery, no wait, a new compression kit should be installed. Simple and part of annual maintenance, unless not performed. If it worked for Merckx it will probably work for you.

    "it will disable the FD but keep the RD working to get you home." Nice fault design, does it fail Big or Little? Didn't need that other chainring anyway.

    "less likely to leave you stranded than a broken cable" I'm just an old Schwinn Approved mechanic from the dim and misty past but we believed in the concept of Preventative Maintenance and changed cables when bikes were overhauled yearly, we even re-packed bearings and replaced brake pads. I have never seen a failed shift or brake cable in 40 years on our club machines. Can't say as much for batteries, in fact the remote temperature probe in the pork shoulder on my grill seems a bit wonky just now.

    Must get back to Compact vs Mothra and that pork roast, but before I go: Inherently less reliable does not mean bad. It is what it is.

    -Bandera
    Last edited by Bandera; 05-21-13 at 04:53 PM.
    '74 Raleigh International - '77 Trek TX900FG - '92 Vitus 979 - '10 Merckx EMX-3- '11 Soma Stanyan

  23. #98
    Portland Fred banerjek's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nerull View Post
    Di2, on the other hand, warns you several hundred miles before the battery dies and once it gets low enough it will disable the FD but keep the RD working to get you home. It is less likely to leave you stranded than a broken cable. Or the multiple times my ever simple and loved by retrogrouches downtube shifters loosened up and left me stuck in my highest gear in the back. But I'm sure I imagined that.
    Nothing is foolproof. The last time I went on a ride with others, a few of the guys had Di2. One had a lot of tranny noise, the type you'd fix with a barrel adjustment. He told me you can't adjust it when you're out there and that you need to take it into the shop.

    DT shifters can loosen up and take you to the highest gear. Why didn't you just tighten them? That's a simple road repair. I have had cables break including halfway through a hilly century. I've considered carrying a spare cable, but never bothered because there are ways to improvise. Mechanical systems are also easier to jury rig when they've been damaged.

    The issue with electronic shifting isn't running out of juice. It's not about the reliability of the servos. There are a lot of ways to mess up wires and mechanisms on the road. It's still worth it for racers for several reasons.

    Mechanical systems fail. A couple years ago, I had a Rival shifter break off in my hand which sucked because it was windy, dark, and rainy and I had a long way to go. But that was poor design on SRAM's part and I could still choose gears by adjusting cable tension manually. The deal with electronic is that it's great when it works, but you're screwed when it doesn't. If you spend enough time where no rescue will be coming, it's nice to have some options.


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    Quote Originally Posted by banerjek View Post
    Nothing is foolproof. The last time I went on a ride with others, a few of the guys had Di2. One had a lot of tranny noise, the type you'd fix with a barrel adjustment. He told me you can't adjust it when you're out there and that you need to take it into the shop.
    He doesn't know what he's talking about. You can actually adjust it while riding the bike if you want w/ DI2. On my ultegra DI2, just hold a button down on the junction box by the handlebars until a light turns red (about 2 seconds) on and then use the shifters to adjust the derailleur in or out (like a barrel adjuster). When you're done, hold the button again for a few seconds until the light goes off and continue riding. If he doesn't want to look up a simple procedure on how to adjust his bike it's his fault, not the DI2.

    Other nice thing about DI2 is if it does fail it will stay in whatever gear you're in. So if you know your battery is about to die you can put it in a gear that will let you get home, vs mechanical you end up in the smallest gear if the cable breaks.
    Last edited by aramis; 05-21-13 at 05:44 PM.

  25. #100
    Senior Member Jakedatc's Avatar
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    99klein has been against compacts even before he tried one and put on a stupid combo for his area so that he would hate it. nothing new there..

    funny that pro's who could put whatever they want on their bike go with compacts or variations of it.. ie 52 or 53/36 for mountains stages with 11-25 or 11-28 cassettes (blanco mechs said 11-23 isn't used anymore due to 11 speed)

    i don't think battery issues should be a reason to be againt DI2 lol (cost, necessity etc maybe) They had an article about the Blanco mechanics at the Giro.. they swap out batteries with charged ones when they blink at 50%.. funny.. tires go flat if you don't maintain them too.. i guess folks should go back to solid rubber tires?
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