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Alright I’m going to ask it. How do I get faster???

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Road Cycling “It is by riding a bicycle that you learn the contours of a country best, since you have to sweat up the hills and coast down them. Thus you remember them as they actually are, while in a motor car only a high hill impresses you, and you have no such accurate remembrance of country you have driven through as you gain by riding a bicycle.” -- Ernest Hemingway

Alright I’m going to ask it. How do I get faster???

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Old 05-25-13, 09:30 PM
  #101  
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Originally Posted by svtmike
That just means you are pushing such a big gear that you never get much higher than an endurance power output at your current cadence. Power is torque x rpm. You are hitting the limit of torque but you are nowhere close on RPM.
Ding! Ding! Ding!

He just proved the case that he needs to spin more!

Muscles filling with lactate while not breathing too hard is a textbook example of riding at too low a cadence!

Metal head, go out and spin yourself silly and watch your ability to sustain higher wattage over a longer period of time magically appear.
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Old 05-25-13, 09:54 PM
  #102  
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Originally Posted by MetalPedaler
No- seriously- my cardio has improved so much [between riding these hills and doing Tabata] that my muscles are maxxed when I'm just huffing a little now. (A year ago, when I first started riding, it was just the opposite- I'd have to stop half-way up the hills 'cause my heart was beating out of my chest and I couldn't breathe!)
That means you're working your muscles instead of your cardio system, not that your cardio system is awesome. Quite the opposite, I would guess.
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Old 05-25-13, 10:07 PM
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https://www.ridekick.com/ , eh?

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Old 05-25-13, 10:25 PM
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Nope, guys!

I tried that when doing Tabata. At first I was doing low-cadence heavy resistance on the spin bike. When I maxxed-out at that, I went to high-cadence, little resistance. It worked for a few days....but my muscles then packed-up before I achieved max cardio.

Funny thing is: My legs are probably the most developed part of my body- always have been. Heart was always quite strong, too. But since I started getting back into shape and riding, my cardio has out-paced everything. I've ALWAYS had a hard time building muscle.

My first few times doing Tabata, I almost puked. Now...like I said, I just don't have enough muscle to achieve that state- regardless of cadence (I must be turning 150RPM on the spin bike when I do Tabata- I can do that with little resistence- or I can do almost-can't-turn-the-cranks at maybe 50 RPM- but either way, I'm at the limits of what my musculature will allow).

And whether I ride my triple up the big hills in 30x25, or my double in 39x23.....my legs give out before I get breathless.
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Old 05-25-13, 10:27 PM
  #105  
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^^^ Incorrect.

You've proven that the absurd ends of the spectrum don't work but there's nothing there about riding at 80~90rpm for an extended period of time.

Cardio isn't about how strong you think your heart is, it's about the exchange of gasses. Go get a VO2 max test done and get back to us.
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Old 05-25-13, 11:58 PM
  #106  
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Originally Posted by MetalPedaler
And whether I ride my triple up the big hills in 30x25, or my double in 39x23.....my legs give out before I get breathless.
It's possible you aren't as fit as you think you are. To get breathless all you have to do is pedal above your threshold power (the max power you can sustain for about an hour). If you are putting out 10% over threshold power it won't be long before you are breathing at VO2Max. Unless you have a very low VO2Max you will be panting. It's unpleasant though and your legs will be burning so you need to push yourself outside your comfort zone.
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Old 05-26-13, 05:31 AM
  #107  
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Originally Posted by MetalPedaler
Nope, guys!

I tried that when doing Tabata. At first I was doing low-cadence heavy resistance on the spin bike. When I maxxed-out at that, I went to high-cadence, little resistance. It worked for a few days....but my muscles then packed-up before I achieved max cardio.

Funny thing is: My legs are probably the most developed part of my body- always have been. Heart was always quite strong, too. But since I started getting back into shape and riding, my cardio has out-paced everything. I've ALWAYS had a hard time building muscle.

My first few times doing Tabata, I almost puked. Now...like I said, I just don't have enough muscle to achieve that state- regardless of cadence (I must be turning 150RPM on the spin bike when I do Tabata- I can do that with little resistence- or I can do almost-can't-turn-the-cranks at maybe 50 RPM- but either way, I'm at the limits of what my musculature will allow).

And whether I ride my triple up the big hills in 30x25, or my double in 39x23.....my legs give out before I get breathless.
I'm trying to figure out why you think you're such a unique case. Some of the people posting here have dumptrucks full of experience and actual knowledge. Your limitation isn't your "musculature". It isn't your cardiovascular endurance either. It's your brain; too small.
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Old 05-26-13, 07:18 AM
  #108  
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Originally Posted by Bob Dopolina
^^^ Incorrect.

You've proven that the absurd ends of the spectrum don't work but there's nothing there about riding at 80~90rpm for an extended period of time.

Cardio isn't about how strong you think your heart is, it's about the exchange of gasses. Go get a VO2 max test done and get back to us.
Bob. Please stop bashing your head against this wall.

Pearls before swine...
Horse to water...
Teaching a pig to dance...
etc. etc.

Unless of course you enjoy it, in that case carry on.

He's not going to get it.

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Old 05-26-13, 07:26 AM
  #109  
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Originally Posted by DinoShepherd
Bob. Please stop bashing your head against this wall.

Pearls before swine...
Horse to water...
Teaching a pig to dance...
etc. etc.

Unless of course you enjoy it, in that case carry on.

He's not going to get it.

The more detailed explanations may be of help to future readers who are not quite as bull-headed.
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Old 05-26-13, 07:34 AM
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Originally Posted by MetalPedaler
Nope, guys!

I tried that when doing Tabata. At first I was doing low-cadence heavy resistance on the spin bike. When I maxxed-out at that, I went to high-cadence, little resistance. It worked for a few days....but my muscles then packed-up before I achieved max cardio.

Funny thing is: My legs are probably the most developed part of my body- always have been. Heart was always quite strong, too. But since I started getting back into shape and riding, my cardio has out-paced everything. I've ALWAYS had a hard time building muscle.

My first few times doing Tabata, I almost puked. Now...like I said, I just don't have enough muscle to achieve that state- regardless of cadence (I must be turning 150RPM on the spin bike when I do Tabata- I can do that with little resistence- or I can do almost-can't-turn-the-cranks at maybe 50 RPM- but either way, I'm at the limits of what my musculature will allow).

And whether I ride my triple up the big hills in 30x25, or my double in 39x23.....my legs give out before I get breathless.
Because you seem keen on car analogies, let's go for a better car analogy than the one you presented that's also perhaps less flawed.

Rather than being simply a car, your body is more akin to a hybrid car, with electric and gas motors corresponding to your legs and cardiovascular system, respectively. When you use a lower cadence, you're using almost entirely your electric motor, which feels efficient because your gas motor is barely used -- and for short exertions, just using an electric motor in a hybrid car can indeed work very well. The problem is, electric motors tend to run out of power much, MUCH more quickly than gas motors do, and they're not nearly as quick to recharge. When you're spinning your legs faster--let's say 100 RPM instead of 150--you're using your gas motor and less of the electric motor, keeping the electric more charged up because you're not draining its power as much or as exclusively. This has two critical effects: because you're allowing the gas motor to do most of the work, you can go much further and refill more easily. And because you're keeping your electric motor topped off, when you have a moment when you need to put the pedal to the floor (whether at the end of a race or sprinting up a hill), you have deeper electrical reserves that can work in conjunction with your gas motor, allowing your legs and cardiovascular system to work together to provide maximal force.

This is where your flaw is when you say your legs give out before you get breathless: if your legs are giving out before your cardiovascular system is also maximized, it means very literally that you are not able to give your maximal effort. If you think in terms of the gas and electric motors in a hybrid car, you'll have the most power if both of them are working together in sync and both putting out 100%. If you're focusing so much on the electric motor that the gas motor can't also contribute its full power, you are by definition not at maximal output. In terms of changing this with your body, it means that you must increase your cadence so that you better split the load between your legs and your heart. You'll know you're doing it right when your legs run out of steam at the same time as your heart does -- and you'll know you're doing it right because that maximal effort will be much higher than whatever you're capable of right now with your mismatched emphasis on your legs.

You're correct that everyone is different, to some degree. But if chimpanzees share something like 98% of our genetic material, you can imagine that the next Fred on the street must be sharing more like 99.8% identical to you; which is to say that in such a specific instance as this, we're so much more alike than dissimilar that it's simply not worthwhile not treating us all identically. Virtually all the available data agree that to be more effective in terms of both longer and higher output, you have to spin faster to allow your deeper reserves (cardiovascular system) do the brunt of the work. To suggest otherwise is simply false.

(Anyone please chime in if I've misspoken in any way. I am, after all, just a Newbie. )

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Old 05-26-13, 08:32 AM
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Originally Posted by Ryan.Han
Because you seem keen on car analogies, let's go for a better car analogy than the one you presented that's also perhaps less flawed.

Rather than being simply a car, your body is more akin to a hybrid car, with electric and gas motors corresponding to your legs and cardiovascular system, respectively. When you use a lower cadence, you're using almost entirely your electric motor, which feels efficient because your gas motor is barely used -- and for short exertions, just using an electric motor in a hybrid car can indeed work very well. The problem is, electric motors tend to run out of power much, MUCH more quickly than gas motors do, and they're not nearly as quick to recharge. When you're spinning your legs faster--let's say 100 RPM instead of 150--you're using your gas motor and less of the electric motor, keeping the electric more charged up because you're not draining its power as much or as exclusively. This has two critical effects: because you're allowing the gas motor to do most of the work, you can go much further and refill more easily. And because you're keeping your electric motor topped off, when you have a moment when you need to put the pedal to the floor (whether at the end of a race or sprinting up a hill), you have deeper electrical reserves that can work in conjunction with your gas motor, allowing your legs and cardiovascular system to work together to provide maximal force.

This is where your flaw is when you say your legs give out before you get breathless: if your legs are giving out before your cardiovascular system is also maximized, it means very literally that you are not able to give your maximal effort. If you think in terms of the gas and electric motors in a hybrid car, you'll have the most power if both of them are working together in sync and both putting out 100%. If you're focusing so much on the electric motor that the gas motor can't also contribute its full power, you are by definition not at maximal output. In terms of changing this with your body, it means that you must increase your cadence so that you better split the load between your legs and your heart. You'll know you're doing it right when your legs run out of steam at the same time as your heart does -- and you'll know you're doing it right because that maximal effort will be much higher than whatever you're capable of right now with your mismatched emphasis on your legs.

You're correct that everyone is different, to some degree. But if chimpanzees share something like 98% of our genetic material, you can imagine that the next Fred on the street must be sharing more like 99.8% identical to you; which is to say that in such a specific instance as this, we're so much more alike than dissimilar that it's simply not worthwhile not treating us all identically. Virtually all the available data agree that to be more effective in terms of both longer and higher output, you have to spin faster to allow your deeper reserves (cardiovascular system) do the brunt of the work. To suggest otherwise is simply false.

(Anyone please chime in if I've misspoken in any way. I am, after all, just a Newbie. )
Oh, dear goodness- I'm a Prius? NOOoooo!!!!!!!

Seriously though- great analogy- and I appreciate you taking the time to make it.

And I do agree. Here's the one limitation though: I just don't have the gearing to be able to spin up the big hills (Even with my triple). On the flats and rollers, I do fine- I mean, I'm not turning such a high gear that I'm wearing myself out or anything- I'm just doing what's comfortable. Come to a steep and/or long hill, I'll drop to my lowest gear as the momentum runs out....but there's no way I can turn 90RPM up that hill. At this time, the electric motor(legs) is the limiting factor- as there is just too much resistance to overcome. The gas motor still has reserves- as I may puff a little....but I'm not breathless, as i was when I first started riding. So I may turn 50RPM up that hill...NOT because I want to...but because it's all I can do. (On the flats and rollers, at least I have options- as I'm not working at my limit's end).

I will get stronger though. I have been getting stronger- as I can manage to take these hills on my standard double, too, now (It's not easy- and I have to stand...) and I know, when I get to a certain point, I will be able to spin up the hills- just as I can in fact do on some hills that I once couldn't.

One thing I've recently learned: I had been trying to take the hills faster/more aggressively....but as of late, I am taking it as easy as possible on the big hills...and saving myself so that I can go harder on the flatter areas- and that has really helped my speed as of late. [Ducks and covers] but I still prefer lower cadence on the flats!

Interesting fact: That 2-point-something percent DNA difference between us and chimps doesn't sound like much- but DNA is so vast and complex, that if you wrote out the differences, that 2.something% would fill enough Encyclopedia Brittanicas to reach from Canada to Florida*

[*= Florida: A hot, humid place full of New Yorkers]
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Old 05-26-13, 08:36 AM
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Originally Posted by pdedes
I'm trying to figure out why you think you're such a unique case. Some of the people posting here have dumptrucks full of experience and actual knowledge. Your limitation isn't your "musculature". It isn't your cardiovascular endurance either. It's your brain; too small.
There actually are a good percentage of riders who prefer a lower cadence- even right here on this forum. I believe there is a thread...possibly in the 50+ sub-forum, about cadence, in which c. 20% of the respondents ride at a lower cadence. So, I wouldn't say I'm too unique. At least not in that regard.
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Old 05-26-13, 08:42 AM
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Originally Posted by Bob Dopolina
^^^ Incorrect.

You've proven that the absurd ends of the spectrum don't work but there's nothing there about riding at 80~90rpm for an extended period of time.

Cardio isn't about how strong you think your heart is, it's about the exchange of gasses. Go get a VO2 max test done and get back to us.
If I had a cadence feature on my bike computer, who knows, I might see that I am in fact riding at a higher cadence more often than I realize. I'm not going to worry about numbers though; I'm just interested in what works best for me, at my present fitness level (Which admittedly isn't all that great yet...but definitely a huge improvement from where I had been in the recent past).

I'm enjoying my rides and making progress- win/win.

I do keep what I read here stored in the back of my mind though- always willing to try it again. At some point, I may find that it indeed works for me...or maybe not. [It's kind of hard to argue with someone who by comparison could make me look like a 5 year-old on a tricycle!]
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Old 05-26-13, 08:57 AM
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Revisiting:

Originally Posted by Ryan.Han
because you're allowing the gas motor to do most of the work, you can go much further and refill more easily. And because you're keeping your electric motor topped off, when you have a moment when you need to put the pedal to the floor (whether at the end of a race or sprinting up a hill), you have deeper electrical reserves that can work in conjunction with your gas motor, allowing your legs and cardiovascular system to work together to provide maximal force.
This is worth pondering. It makes sense. I'm going to keep this in mind as I ride, and try to implement it, and see how it works. Now that I am more fit than last year at this time, and my cardio is stronger....it may work, whereas previously, it was too taxing on my cardio.
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Old 05-26-13, 08:57 AM
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here is every successful climbing style.
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Old 05-26-13, 09:17 AM
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Originally Posted by MetalPedaler
And I do agree. Here's the one limitation though: I just don't have the gearing to be able to spin up the big hills (Even with my triple). On the flats and rollers, I do fine- I mean, I'm not turning such a high gear that I'm wearing myself out or anything- I'm just doing what's comfortable. Come to a steep and/or long hill, I'll drop to my lowest gear as the momentum runs out....but there's no way I can turn 90RPM up that hill.
Dropping into lower and lower gears on hills as momentum runs out is an indication that you don't have the watts you need to climb. Which means, wait for it... your CV system isn't very well developed.
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Old 05-26-13, 09:17 AM
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Originally Posted by pdedes
here is every successful climbing style.
I was goiong to go for a ride. Now I'm tired!

Maybe my estimation of my own cadence is off- by my counting, the guy on the left at around ;02;00 was doing about 60RPM.

Sheesh...now I know what an impotent guy watching a porno movie must feel like! [ewww....]
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Old 05-26-13, 09:24 AM
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Thanks for that.
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Old 05-26-13, 09:32 AM
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Originally Posted by Bah Humbug
Dropping into lower and lower gears on hills as momentum runs out is an indication that you don't have the watts you need to climb. Which means, wait for it... your CV system isn't very well developed.
Why do you say that, as opposed to my muscles not being strong enough?

Granted, I never was much of an athlete- and at 51, just recovering from a decade of being out-of-shape and overweight, my only benchmark is that I'm doing better than I was a year ago- but the reason I feel that it's my muscle power rather than my cardio, is because a year ago, I'd stop half-way up a hill, barely able to breathe, with my heart pounding out of my chest. I don't do that anymore. Now when I get to the top of the big hills, I may be breathing a little hard...but it's my legs that are running out of power. Comments? Am I missing something?
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Old 05-26-13, 09:49 AM
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Originally Posted by MetalPedaler
Not that I know everything....but those who know me in real life, know that I am one who querstions and thinks outside the box. Most pursuits I take up, I start at an advanced level (Cycling was the one exception, as no amount of thinking will compensate for being out of shape and overweight!).

I NEVER had AOL.
I went from barely being able to do a brake job on a car, to rebuilding motors.
I knew from day one that Saddam didn't have WMDs.

I'm considered innovative and ahead of my time- and like most people in that category, I am often ridiculed by the masses until what I knew to be true becomes the accepted norm. (Then everyone forgets that I said it FIRST!)

And in this matter of cadence, it's not even like what I am saying is unique or that it originates with me- but there are lots of informed people who accept that low cadence can be better for many- it's just that the cycling community at large hasn't picked up on it yet.

Criticize if you will, but remember what I've said a few years from noiw, when you're embarassed to have believed in what are the norms now.
I've met many people like you. 90% of them are not nearly as clever as they think they are. I spend quite a bit of time cleaning up the basic mistakes they make because they know so much better.

If you put as much energy into learning the hows and whys as you put into beating your own chest and telling everyone in earshot how good are you are everything, then you might get somewhere.
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Old 05-26-13, 09:56 AM
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Old 05-26-13, 10:00 AM
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Originally Posted by MetalPedaler
Why do you say that, as opposed to my muscles not being strong enough?

Granted, I never was much of an athlete- and at 51, just recovering from a decade of being out-of-shape and overweight, my only benchmark is that I'm doing better than I was a year ago- but the reason I feel that it's my muscle power rather than my cardio, is because a year ago, I'd stop half-way up a hill, barely able to breathe, with my heart pounding out of my chest. I don't do that anymore. Now when I get to the top of the big hills, I may be breathing a little hard...but it's my legs that are running out of power. Comments? Am I missing something?
Your legs are running out of power because you're going anaerobic and burning through your energy stores. There is limited amount of energy available for that, and once it's gone it's gone. These take a long time to rebuild. Your body can sustain high anaerobic energy output for only a few minutes before you simply cannot go any further.

With better cardio you can better supply oxygen to your muscles to avoid using your anerobic stores until you really need them.

Last edited by Nerull; 05-26-13 at 10:06 AM.
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Old 05-26-13, 10:32 AM
  #123  
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Originally Posted by Nerull
I've met many people like you. 90% of them are not nearly as clever as they think they are. I spend quite a bit of time cleaning up the basic mistakes they make because they know so much better.

If you put as much energy into learning the hows and whys as you put into beating your own chest and telling everyone in earshot how good are you are everything, then you might get somewhere.
I don't tell everyone how great I am. But if people try and knock me down, undeservedly, I do feel it appropriate to remind them that unlike so many these days.....my life works! I am truly happy. The majority can not say that. They know not the reasons for their failures/unhappiness. They follow the accepted norms without question or critique, and thus think they are doing what they are supposed to- not considering that their path will produce results no different from all those around them.

Take a good friend of mine: In her 40's- with a string of letters after her name, including a doctorate. Recently quit her 6-figure job and is in hopeless debt from all the education. She now realizes what I realized when I was a teenager- only I saved myself all the debt, aggravation and wasted years. Am I smarter? Do I see things that others don't? Maybe yes, maybe no- it doesn't matter- all I know is that I can assess things well and sort through the BS, and by doing so, instead of going with the flow, it has provided me with a rich, interesting happy life- which is my standard of success.

I like to make others question things. I like to make them realize that simply following the crowd because they've been told that that is the thing to do, is not going to produce an outcome any different from what that crowd experiences. What is the accepted norm today is actually an aberration. We live in a time in which that which is radical is accepted as the norm. A small blip in history, much like the French Revolution- where it takes some individualism to overcome the mantras of the mass-media and statist education, and get a true bearing on reality.

Why did 90% of the Germans support Hitler? How do tyrants like the Bolsheviks subvert whole nations of several-hundred million people? Because most people are like sheep, and are easily led and believe what they are told.
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Old 05-26-13, 10:40 AM
  #124  
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Originally Posted by Nerull
Your legs are running out of power because you're going anaerobic and burning through your energy stores. There is limited amount of energy available for that, and once it's gone it's gone. These take a long time to rebuild. Your body can sustain high anaerobic energy output for only a few minutes before you simply cannot go any further.

With better cardio you can better supply oxygen to your muscles to avoid using your anerobic stores until you really need them.
I'm not seeing this. A year ago, it was true. I'd get to the top of a hill, and my cardio would be maxxed-out- I'd have to stop and rest. Now I get to the top of a hill, and I might be breathing just a LITTLE hard....but I still have plenty more to go, as far as breathing and heart-rate.

Maybe I'm missing something here- but I see it like this: If we were talking weights, maybe you could lift 200 lbs. Try 250 and you can't do it. Is it because of your cardio, or your muscles aren't yet strong enough? Muscles, right?

I guess, either way, it's kind of moot, because I still need to build strength and endurance- both cardio and muscles.

If I'm missing something, do clue me in..... I'm for anything that would make me a stronger rider.
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Old 05-26-13, 10:45 AM
  #125  
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Originally Posted by MetalPedaler
Why do you say that, as opposed to my muscles not being strong enough?

Granted, I never was much of an athlete- and at 51, just recovering from a decade of being out-of-shape and overweight, my only benchmark is that I'm doing better than I was a year ago- but the reason I feel that it's my muscle power rather than my cardio, is because a year ago, I'd stop half-way up a hill, barely able to breathe, with my heart pounding out of my chest. I don't do that anymore. Now when I get to the top of the big hills, I may be breathing a little hard...but it's my legs that are running out of power. Comments? Am I missing something?
It's not that your legs have nothing to do with it, but what usually gets people on hills is they have difficulty keeping their heart rate and breathing in check. If you can do those things and have the right gearing, generally you'll be able to get your body up hills. The other huge part of handling hills is your mental approach, especially if you have long, steady climbs. Your brain can often talk your body out of doing something it is physically capable of doing.

If you use correct gearing, your legs will be able to keep spinning generally. You may not think about it much, but you really only need to be going around 5 mph or thereabouts to stay upright. As long as you can get your body to cooperate and help you keep that speed, you'll be able to get up the hills.
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