Advertise on Bikeforums.net



User Tag List

Page 2 of 2 FirstFirst 12
Results 26 to 50 of 50
  1. #26
    Senior Member
    Join Date
    Oct 2010
    Posts
    3,332
    Mentioned
    1 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)
    Quote Originally Posted by Nachoman View Post
    Going up hills super slow, in a super low gear, I would assume does not improve your speed on flat terrain.
    On anything greater than 8%, even the lowest gear will give a pretty decent training load to anyone who's not training like a competitive racer. Make it a 15% hill, and even in the smallest gear of a triple, it's good training for nearly any rider save the very best.

    One of the best ways to force a slow flatlander rider who's stuck in their comfort zone on the flats, is to force them into seriously hilly terrain. No more easy spinning on the steeper sections for those slackers.

  2. #27
    Senior Member
    Join Date
    Oct 2010
    Posts
    3,332
    Mentioned
    1 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)
    Quote Originally Posted by big john View Post
    There's more to it than power or power to weight ratio. If I ride in the mountains for weeks, I have trouble keeping up with the fast group rides when I go back to the flatter club rides.
    You have to learn to go fast and to go fast with others.
    I have the opposite effect. If I want to really do some damage on the local group ride, I do more overdistance and overelevation mountain rides than exceed the parameters of the group ride, and then when I rejoin the group ride, I can hammer with them with much better effect.

    At the non-pro levels, you raise your FTP by whatever means possible, you generally ride faster both solo and group. Yes there are group tactics that have to be learned in a group, but that's a somewhat different issue than just riding faster on a flat than you typically do as the OP asked, for which raising FTP is generally the answer (outside of an egregiously bad bike fit.)

  3. #28
    Senior Member
    Join Date
    Apr 2006
    Location
    Albuquerque, NM
    Posts
    2,946
    Mentioned
    0 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)
    Quote Originally Posted by Mountain Mitch View Post
    The problem with this is that you are confusing power and speed. A offensive guard in football is far more powerful than a wide receiver but the wide receiver is much faster.
    Since power is force times speed, it is far from clear the guard is more powerful than the receiver. Assuming the guard generates more force than the receiver, without more information there's no way to tell if that extra force is sufficient to overcome the lower speed resulting in more power.

  4. #29
    Senior Member Cookiemonsta's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2012
    Posts
    532
    Mentioned
    0 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)
    I think the opening post is a little confusing.

    You ask whether you will be faster overall if you "include" steep climbs. But it is not clear whether you will add them to your training, or whether they will replace training on flat routes. If it is the former, there is no doubt that you will see an improvement in your overall performance, and most notably of course in your ability to climb. If it is the latter, the question is a lot more complicated, and I actually do not have a clear answer. There is a mental aspect to climbing as well that can make you a stronger cyclist overall. Then it could also differ dependent on the person himself, and what part of his body he should focus on in training to improve his cycling.

    I honestly do not think it could hurt. If you have any climbs available in your surrounding areas, I do not see why you would not use them for training. At the very least, it makes things more interesting, which is usually reason enough for me.

  5. #30
    Senior Member Ice41000's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2010
    Posts
    390
    Mentioned
    0 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)
    Quote Originally Posted by Gege-Bubu View Post
    Probably this is a silly question, but I learned that if someone riding on flats fast, it does not mean that he is a good climber.

    But is the opposite true? If I include some hard climbs to my training routine - does it mean that I will be faster overall, or climbing will train other cyclist abilities?
    Yes.

  6. #31
    downhill quickly
    Join Date
    Jun 2007
    Location
    Colorado & Maine
    My Bikes
    SWorks Roubaix
    Posts
    170
    Mentioned
    0 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)
    There have been some really good comments in this thread...frankly...it appears to me everyone is on the same page, certainly not the sentence, but within a few paragraphs.


    Living in Colorado always cycling a variety of courses on the front range, and as a rec cyclist passionate about what cycling brings to my healthful and competitive life, "All-Round" rings true for me as the constant goal. It's such a fine balance, power:weight, and finding that perfect form that has me at my best for all the flats, ups and downs.


    Specifically for the OP, I would say yes, take climbing opportunities with the same purpose you do as with flat sprinting and those head wind days. For me, along with attention paid to my diet/nutrition, sleep, body weight and yoga conditioning, my growth in cycling comes with variance...mixing it up.

    Oh, and FWIW: My biggest gains in measurable power have come with a keener mind. Working that neocortex that manages all the body growth, nueromuscular firing and a sensible balanced life strategy have paid large dividends

  7. #32
    Senior Member OldsCOOL's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2004
    Location
    northern michigan
    My Bikes
    '88 Cannondale Criterium
    Posts
    4,729
    Mentioned
    12 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)
    Quote Originally Posted by Drew Eckhardt View Post
    A structured training plan with tough days hard enough to force adaptations and rest days/weeks/month easy enough to leave you fresh enough to go hard increases your power output. When that yields a good power to weight ratio you're fast up-hill. With good power to drag you're fast on flat ground. Doing it on flat ground or in the hills doesn't make a big difference.

    Having lived in the Colorado Rockies but done more riding on the east side of Boulder I'd argue there's no practical difference until you run out of gears. Equipment choice can usually avoid that and you could always spend some time at low cadence on flat ground with your big ring if you noticed unacceptable power output issues at low cadences.

    I like the _Training and Racing with a Power Meter_ anecdote about the racer who blew up and got dropped every time he spent more than five minutes at his one hour power but a cadence of 70 or below. He got lower gears.

    Psychologically hills are different. For better (you need to ride hard enough to force training adaptations) or worse (you're not going to ride at intensity long enough if you over do it) many people find it easier to push themselves up-hill.
    in short, you are talking about maintaining constant pedal pressure.
    Having a flat tire as part of the total cycling experience is highly overrated. Knowing how to fix one quickly is not.

    '85 Trek 460 road racer

    '89 Raleigh Technium PRE

    '79 Motobecane Super Mirage

  8. #33
    Senior Member Will Goes Boing's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2013
    Posts
    230
    Mentioned
    0 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)
    I find that moderately steep long hills are the best if your goal is to get faster on the flats. I personally wouldn't even call these "hills" because they're not by any means steep, but enough to where if you try to sustain a good speed it'll hurt. The key is to suck it up and hurt the whole way up.

    I see it as running with ankle weights on. For a while I was doing these short 10 mile loops around my house where I give an all out effort. They're short and sweet (or painful depending on how you see it).

  9. #34
    Senior Member
    Join Date
    Jul 2011
    Location
    Merry Land
    My Bikes
    Guru Evolo R, Colnago Pista, Look AL 464P SS, various frankenbikes
    Posts
    433
    Mentioned
    1 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)
    IMO, the most important issue is technique. If when climbing, you work hard on applying power throughout all 360 degrees of your stroke, pulling through the dead spot as well as you push, you'll gain the efficiency and technique that will serve you well on the flats. Those muscles take a while to condition, but when the endurance and memory is there, you'll be faster on all terrain.

  10. #35
    Senior Member
    Join Date
    Oct 2010
    Posts
    3,332
    Mentioned
    1 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)
    Quote Originally Posted by stilltooslow View Post
    IMO, the most important issue is technique. If when climbing, you work hard on applying power throughout all 360 degrees of your stroke, pulling through the dead spot as well as you push, you'll gain the efficiency and technique that will serve you well on the flats. Those muscles take a while to condition, but when the endurance and memory is there, you'll be faster on all terrain.
    I haven't found this to be true for me, contrary to how logical it sounds.

    Reliably, I'm finding that the lower my cadence (not super slow, but maybe 75-lo 80s), where I'm not as silky smooth as when I am at 90-100, I generate 15-30 more watts on average on climbs, even long 1hr ones, on average. It's really noticeable. If being silky smooth would get me more power, I definitely would have done it, as I do a regular climb here that takes pretty much an hour to ascend, up the whole way. But what I'm finding is that mashing the pedals and keeping a pretty heavy load so you can't slack off, keeps the power up.

    I've experimented with higher cadences since I typically train at 90-100 on my weekday indoor training sessions, but there's no doubt it gives worse power results for me.

    My hill climb isn't all ugly, but it's far from pretty - in contrast, when I spin high rpms, I can get a super smooth trace on things like TrainerRoad from the powermeter, which is very difficult to get when you're mashing away at low rpms. Still, I'll take the higher power over the smooth pedaling any day.

  11. #36
    Senior Member
    Join Date
    Jul 2011
    Location
    Merry Land
    My Bikes
    Guru Evolo R, Colnago Pista, Look AL 464P SS, various frankenbikes
    Posts
    433
    Mentioned
    1 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)
    ^^^^^Actually I don't think we're far off. I'm not so much referring to cadence, so much as I'm referring to efficient pedaling. Like you, I probably spin the low 70's on my climbs, but do so fairly smoothly while focusing on pulling through the dead spots. I train one to two days a week on a fixie which forces one to develop a good strong circular pedaling motion, and while it definitely improves my pull on the flats, it's essential when encountering hills on that beast!

  12. #37
    Senior Member
    Join Date
    Feb 2005
    Location
    No Va but ride also in So Md
    My Bikes
    Cervelo SLC-SL, Guru Photon, Waterford, Specialized CX
    Posts
    8,441
    Mentioned
    2 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)
    Quote Originally Posted by Mountain Mitch View Post

    You can power up hills but if your max RPM is 100 and the next guys is 120 you're going to go slower on the flats. Even gears have their limits to compensate.
    This doesn't make sense. If you're generating 400 watts at 100 rpm and another rider is putting out 350 watts at 120 rpm, you will be faster.
    You're just trying to start an argument to show how smart you are.

  13. #38
    Retired dabbler hobkirk's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2010
    Location
    Acton, MA (20 miles west of Boston) - GORGEOUS cycling territory!
    My Bikes
    2007 Specialized Roubaix Elite Triple - 1st ride = century 9/19/2010 * * 2007 GT Carbon Series 2, Ultegra - 7/2010 - 2,000 miles, (replaced 'cuz it was too small) * * 1975 Lotus Odyssey - resurrected & ridden 400 miles to "try out" cycling
    Posts
    523
    Mentioned
    0 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)
    Quote Originally Posted by big john View Post
    There's more to it than power or power to weight ratio. If I ride in the mountains for weeks, I have trouble keeping up with the fast group rides when I go back to the flatter club rides.
    You have to learn to go fast and to go fast with others.
    This post seems 100% on point. It is NOT a theory, it is his observation.

    Plus I like it because it agrees with my personal experience. Steep intervals make me a stronger cyclist which improves my average MPH on all my rides, because the ascents are faster. But they do not make me faster on the flats. I am firmly convinced that I (maybe not you) need to practice riding over 20 MPH on flats to improve my ability to ride over 20 MPH on flats.

    However I agree with the logic of all you people saying power is power, and more power translates directly to the ability to ride faster. Logic - yes. But I do not find that it works in practice. Like Big John.

    [16-17 MPH on a course with an average ascent of 40-50' per mile is good for me.]
    2007 Specialized Roubaix, 105 Triple
    Started cycling 6/1/2010 at 64 - lethargy, bad knees, & 247# triggered my foray into cycling
    200# as of 9/9/2012 (mostly from diet, 40# in 5 mo)
    2010 (1st 7 mo) = 4.7K miles (a little nuts), 2011 = 6K

  14. #39
    Senior Member
    Join Date
    May 2008
    Posts
    177
    Mentioned
    0 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)
    Quote Originally Posted by Looigi View Post
    Unfortunately a common misconception. It doesn't work that way. Power makes you fast up hills and makes you fast on the flats. Torque does nothing without RPM. Produce a lot of torque? Up shift to compensate. Produce a little? Down shift. Either way, same power will make you go the same speed.
    qft

  15. #40
    Slogging along rubic's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2007
    Location
    San Fernando Valley, SoCal
    My Bikes
    Cannondale Synapse '06, Mongoose titanium road bike '00--my commuter. Yes, Mongoose once made a decent ti road bike.
    Posts
    1,121
    Mentioned
    0 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)
    Climbing builds strength (torque). Strength is an excellent prerequisite for speed. However, if you want to go fast on the flats, you need to train fast. Use your newly acquired strength from climbing and then adapt it to speed training techniques.

  16. #41
    Senior Member
    Join Date
    Apr 2006
    Location
    Albuquerque, NM
    Posts
    2,946
    Mentioned
    0 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)
    Quote Originally Posted by rubic View Post
    Climbing builds strength (torque). Strength is an excellent prerequisite for speed.
    Until you learn what that word (strength) means, I recommend you avoid using it.

  17. #42
    Senior Member big john's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2005
    Location
    In the foothills of Los Angeles County
    Posts
    10,763
    Mentioned
    2 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)
    Quote Originally Posted by hobkirk View Post
    This post seems 100% on point. It is NOT a theory, it is his observation.

    Plus I like it because it agrees with my personal experience. Steep intervals make me a stronger cyclist which improves my average MPH on all my rides, because the ascents are faster. But they do not make me faster on the flats. I am firmly convinced that I (maybe not you) need to practice riding over 20 MPH on flats to improve my ability to ride over 20 MPH on flats.

    However I agree with the logic of all you people saying power is power, and more power translates directly to the ability to ride faster. Logic - yes. But I do not find that it works in practice. Like Big John.

    [16-17 MPH on a course with an average ascent of 40-50' per mile is good for me.]
    For a beginner of course any training is going to help but for someone like me who has been riding for decades, (I'm 59), there is going to be a plateau, a point where I am not going to get any stronger, either due to time constraints, physical limitations, or lack of inclination.
    I like long climbing rides and if I do enough of them I start to feel pretty good on the climbs, but when I go with a fast group it is a big difference, at least the first time chasing the paceline around.

    I guess what I'm trying to say is I agree to a point that climbing will make you faster on the flats but at some point you need to go fast to learn to go fast. That's what I meant by saying there is more to it than just power.

  18. #43
    Bicyclist
    Join Date
    Feb 2013
    Posts
    38
    Mentioned
    0 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)
    I choose not to play with gravity at constant wattage - Uphill (too slow) or Downhill (too fast). I power up on the flats while everyone is conserving for the hills.

  19. #44
    Senior Member
    Join Date
    Apr 2010
    Location
    Sunnyvale, CA USA
    Posts
    2,989
    Mentioned
    5 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)
    Quote Originally Posted by R578645 View Post
    I choose not to play with gravity at constant wattage - Uphill (too slow) or Downhill (too fast). I power up on the flats while everyone is conserving for the hills.
    That's a good way to be slow.

    Speed on flat ground is approximately proportional to the cube root of power output. IOW, you need to work 30% harder for a 10% speed increase or 8X as hard for twice as fast.

    Speed up steep hills is approximately linear with power putput. IOW, 30% harder is about 30% faster and doubling your speed would take 1/4 the power as on flat ground.

  20. #45
    Senior Member bmcphx's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2013
    My Bikes
    P1 Madone, Carve SL, Allez
    Posts
    408
    Mentioned
    3 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)
    I find that climb makes me faster overall.... indirectly.

    I say indirectly because I love to climb hills and typically go faster up a hill without even thinking about it, whereas I have difficulty making myself put up a huge effort or interval on flat ground. Knowing that I can be the first one to the top of a hill or damn near kill myself going up a climb just makes me want to go hard. This is inadvertantly an interval and I'm not even thinking of it as one, rather I'm just riding up a hill.

    I hope that makes sense.

    As for the result of what I've been doing for the last couple years hill vs. flat wise, I think it all comes down to power to weight ratio. I'm 145# so my ratio is high enough that I don't have to make as much power as someone who is 175# to go the same speed uphill. Conversely, that same guy takes gravity out of play and is on a flat and goes super fast. This is the reason that I'm not a good crit racer, but have had very good results in hill cilmb races... those big powerful guys don't have as good a power to weight ratio to keep up with me and will get worked going up, but if the road gets flat or turns down for longer than a tiny bit, they'll usually catch me.
    Last edited by bmcphx; 06-03-13 at 12:03 PM.

  21. #46
    Bicyclist
    Join Date
    Feb 2013
    Posts
    38
    Mentioned
    0 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)
    Quote Originally Posted by Drew Eckhardt View Post
    That's a good way to be slow.

    Speed on flat ground is approximately proportional to the cube root of power output. IOW, you need to work 30% harder for a 10% speed increase or 8X as hard for twice as fast.

    Speed up steep hills is approximately linear with power putput. IOW, 30% harder is about 30% faster and doubling your speed would take 1/4 the power as on flat ground.
    Mmmm.
    All I know is I can do a flat time trial and get 25mph. I guess that's slow compared to 30mph.

  22. #47
    pan y agua merlinextraligh's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2005
    Location
    Jacksonville
    My Bikes
    Wilier Zero 7; Merlin Extralight; Co-Motion Robusta; Schwinn Paramount; Motobecane Phantom Cross; Cervelo P2; Motebecane Ti Fly 29er
    Posts
    27,236
    Mentioned
    8 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)
    Quote Originally Posted by R578645 View Post
    I choose not to play with gravity at constant wattage - Uphill (too slow) or Downhill (too fast). I power up on the flats while everyone is conserving for the hills.
    Quote Originally Posted by R578645 View Post
    Mmmm.
    All I know is I can do a flat time trial and get 25mph. I guess that's slow compared to 30mph.
    My take from your post is that you're saying that you pace your TT efforts by going hard on the flats, and easier on the hills. As a matter of arithmetic, that's a losing proposition. You'll lose more time on the climbs than you gain on the flats.

    The better pacing strategy is to go a bit over threshold, i.e. 105% of FTP ( or more depending on grade) on the uphill portions, even if that means you have to back off a bit below threshold on the descent, or flat sections to recover.

    http://www.beatyourpb.com/profiles/b...may-not-always
    You could fall off a cliff and die.
    You could get lost and die.
    You could hit a tree and die.
    OR YOU COULD STAY HOME AND FALL OFF THE COUCH AND DIE.

  23. #48
    Senior Member
    Join Date
    Sep 2007
    Location
    Orlando
    My Bikes
    Trek Madone 5.1; Trek 6500 & Trek 1500
    Posts
    377
    Mentioned
    0 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)
    I'll give you my story and maybe it will apply to you. I started cycling about 5 years ago in Greenville, SC. All we did was climb hills - all the time. I didn't race and most of our group rides were rides to destinations where you regrouped and then road the second half of the ride. A lot of climbing - a lot of elevation gain. For fun, we would do long rides of 10,000 ft of elevation gain. I was fit and in what I considered very decent shape.

    Two years later, I drug my bike up to MD to visit my parents and ride the Seagull Century (or something like that) - the ride was flat as a pancake. And I crushed it. I don't remember by average MPH but it was the fastest I had ever ridden. It was a start when you feel like it ride & I started later (due to sleeping in) and I just passed people all day long - even tandem pulling pacelines - just cruised right by them. I had a guy who flatted and his friends / group left him. He jumped on my wheel and I drug him back up to his friends - he thank me a bunch and even bought me a beer after it was over. In summary, I felt like "the man" for sure. I was convinced that since I trained in mountains that it made me a "strong" rider.

    6 months after that I got transferred to Orlando FL. Packed up my stuff and moved down. I spent the next 6 months getting dropped from all the fast group rides in town. Confused - I couldn't understand it. I thought I was a "strong" rider, but I guess I was strong when I managed my cadence and my pace. These guys just seem to hammer and hammer away and I always seemed to get dropped at some point on the ride. Eventually, I gained some weight and built up the muscles required to keep up with those fast paced rides & learned how to hide in the wind a little bit.

    So my point is - climbing may give you a good base to go fast on the flats but depending on what you are trying to do on the flats - you would be better to train for that specifically.

  24. #49
    Senior Member bmcphx's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2013
    My Bikes
    P1 Madone, Carve SL, Allez
    Posts
    408
    Mentioned
    3 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)
    so you started late and crushed a bunch of freds on a fred century, and felt strong until you rode with strong riders in Florida then came back to reality?

    one of the hardest groups in town for me is one that does a 17 mile stretch of flat straight road with the wind always helping. It typically moves in waves averaging usually 29mph for that section, with lulls of 25 and surges of sometimes 35+ if some of our pros or strong cat 1s show up. I'm usually happy when we turn right and sit up.
    Last edited by bmcphx; 06-03-13 at 01:42 PM.

  25. #50
    Bicyclist
    Join Date
    Feb 2013
    Posts
    38
    Mentioned
    0 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)
    I simulate hills using leg press machine. Lots of reps. Then do time trial. Seems to help for part of the way. The roads are in terrible shape getting to the hills so I don't do hills much. Nasty railroad tracks in the way also. No fun at all.

Page 2 of 2 FirstFirst 12

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •