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  1. #76
    token triathlete Bah Humbug's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Psimet2001 View Post
    I usually don't. That's kind of my thing, not to.
    Oh, well good for you! That was one of the things I didn't like about Flo (though I suspect they're Novatec, but who knows?). Same issue with some little tiny internet shop that assembles wheels that I can't find now - just says "we use high quality Taiwanese hubs!". Yay. Except that doesn't help me at all. I really appreciate November putting the Novatec model number into their specs. If you do the same, awesome.

  2. #77
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    Quote Originally Posted by bianchi10 View Post
    As Bob said above, the odds are in your favor, BUT there are LOTS of instances where customers haven't been as lucky or happy as you. So the "proof is in the pudding" isn't really the case.
    Given the difficulty in saying anything definitive about the quality of Chinese direct wheels, all I can do is speak from my own experience. Anything else is supposition. The same is true for anyone here. These are all opinions. I will say there there is zero definitive evidence that all Chinese wheels are across the board crap and some evidence that many of them are in fact pretty good.

    Again, odds are in your favor, but a larger gamble than if you purchased a more established brand.
    This I agree with. The question for a buyer to ask themselves is how nervous they personally feel about buying from Chinese direct vendors and how much they're willing to pay to mitigate that nervousness. Is paying a 100-300% premium worth it to you to assuage your nervousness? I can't answer that question. For me it's not worth it. At all.

  3. #78
    Senior Member Commodus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by FPSDavid View Post
    Exactly, I think the "CHINESE CARBON EXPLODES/CRACKS/WILL FAIL 100% OF THE TIME" dealio is a bit overblown... how many cases of failed wheels or frames have there ACTUALLY been, compared to non-Chinese carbon?
    I think that most people would find a complete lack of data regarding the safety/structural integrity of a critical component to be discouraging, rather than the opposite.

  4. #79
    Mr. Dopolina Bob Dopolina's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bah Humbug View Post
    That should do it; the hub determines the exact alignment of the cassette. I can't see why multiple examples of the same hub wouldn't put the cassette in the exact same spot. At least, if it did, that would tell me the hub was too low-quality for my comfort.

    Someone else can feel free to correct me if there's something I'm missing though; I was going to go with F482SB-11 for everything.
    They should be exactly the same.
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  5. #80
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    "What could possibly be different"? Check out the pics on page 3 of this thread: http://www.bikeforums.net/showthread...wheelset/page3

    Would you want to trust your life to that when you're going 45mph?
    2009 De Rosa King 3: Red Shifters, RD, Cranks, Brakes, BB, & Cassette; Force FD; Reynolds DV46c wheels.

    2004 Specialized Stumpjumper FSR: X.0 gripshifters, RD; XTR FD, Cranks, Hayes HFX Carbon 9 Brakes; AC 350 Disc Wheels; Manitou Minute 2:00 100mm fork; Fox propedal triad rear shock; WTB weirwolf UST w/Stan's tubeless system.

  6. #81
    King Hoternot bianchi10's Avatar
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    Absolutely not. Great thread for anyone to look through who is considering cheep carbon knock offs!

  7. #82
    Senior Member gc3's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by marqueemoon View Post
    It's the warranty, stupid.
    "stupid" am I, now?
    "I tried being reasonable, I didn‘t like it."

    "I understand. I just don't care"

  8. #83
    Senior Member gc3's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by foresthill View Post
    "What could possibly be different"? Check out the pics on page 3 of this thread: http://www.bikeforums.net/showthread...wheelset/page3

    Would you want to trust your life to that when you're going 45mph?
    So...the carbon wheel being ridden in that pro race that failed was a chinese knock-off? Gee I didn't know that.

    And yes, I have trusted my life to these wheels going 45 mph. I check regularly for any signs of delamination. None so far, but then I've only gone about 1200 miles and 50K of elevation gain.
    "I tried being reasonable, I didn‘t like it."

    "I understand. I just don't care"

  9. #84
    You blink and it's gone. rbart4506's Avatar
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    I had two set of no-name chinese carbon tubular wheels. Both set look good, ride good and are light like carbon tubulars should be. Both sets have pulsation issues when braking. All wheels were built locally and are true and tensioned correctly. Both sets brake nicely in the dry using Swisstop yelllows, but suck ass in the wet...

    Recently got a set of Boyd 44mm carbon clinchers on a whim. I wanted to ride the race bike more and didn't want the hassle of tubulars on training rides or swapping pads to use the alloys. Boyd's wheels ride almost as well as the tubulars, they're 23.5mm wide, stop like alloys in wet or dry and have absolutely no pulsation. It's to the point that I the only reason I use the tubulars on race day is to save some weight and for the safety sake of having tubulars.

    What I'm trying to say is that there is a difference between a no name chinese rim and a name brand rim. I wouldn't have believed it until I saw it myself...
    "On the other hand riding down a hill at 55 MPH wearing (essentially) women's underwear and a Styrofoam cup on your head is the epitome of rational life-extending decisions." - RacerEx

  10. #85
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    Quote Originally Posted by gc3 View Post
    And yes, I have trusted my life to these wheels going 45 mph. I check regularly for any signs of delamination. None so far, but then I've only gone about 1200 miles and 50K of elevation gain.
    After all, what do we really know, people who actually own the wheels in question here.

    Personally, I'm a suicidal moron who is endangering my life to save a few lousy bucks.

  11. #86
    King Hoternot bianchi10's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by gc3 View Post
    So...the carbon wheel being ridden in that pro race that failed was a chinese knock-off? Gee I didn't know that.

    And yes, I have trusted my life to these wheels going 45 mph. I check regularly for any signs of delamination. None so far, but then I've only gone about 1200 miles and 50K of elevation gain.
    He isnt talking about the pro rider. Scroll down

  12. #87
    Senior Member gc3's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by rbart4506 View Post
    ...What I'm trying to say is that there is a difference between a no name chinese rim and a name brand rim. I wouldn't have believed it until I saw it myself...
    Nobody doubts that there is a difference or disputes that the premium paid is buying something of value, as was said early on in this thread.
    "I tried being reasonable, I didn‘t like it."

    "I understand. I just don't care"

  13. #88
    Senior Member island rider's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bob Dopolina View Post
    They should be exactly the same.
    So, that would be the best bet in terms of swap-ability. Drop one wheel, pop the other in (assume something like 11/12 - 25/28 for cassettes) and ride away. (Maybe a few barrel turns..)
    "I think drivers become like dogs when they see a bicycle fly by at 40mph. Instinctively, they just want to give chase, catch them, and eat them." - Papa Tom

  14. #89
    token triathlete Bah Humbug's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by island rider View Post
    So, that would be the best bet in terms of swap-ability. Drop one wheel, pop the other in (assume something like 11/12 - 25/28 for cassettes) and ride away. (Maybe a few barrel turns..)
    No, no barrel turns. That is the exact goal I have - get the RD shifting perfectly, then swap wheels at desire with the gear changes purring away like a kitten with no tweaking. With barrel turns would be how it goes with changing hubs.

  15. #90
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bah Humbug View Post
    No, no barrel turns. That is the exact goal I have - get the RD shifting perfectly, then swap wheels at desire with the gear changes purring away like a kitten with no tweaking. With barrel turns would be how it goes with changing hubs.
    Don't forget that if you don't want to adjust the brakes either, you will need rims of the same over brake track width.

  16. #91
    token triathlete Bah Humbug's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by rpenmanparker View Post
    Don't forget that if you don't want to adjust the brakes either, you will need rims of the same over brake track width.
    The brake track widths are about the same, 23mm vs 25mm. It's not like those are nearly as sensitive to exact alignment as shifting is; if the alignment is slightly off, my brakes will just be a little more or less responsive. That's much more ok than sluggish or skipped shifts. I can handle my brakes; getting the RD tuned usually results me in wanting to throw the bike in a ditch.

  17. #92
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bah Humbug View Post
    The brake track widths are about the same, 23mm vs 25mm. It's not like those are nearly as sensitive to exact alignment as shifting is; if the alignment is slightly off, my brakes will just be a little more or less responsive. That's much more ok than sluggish or skipped shifts. I can handle my brakes; getting the RD tuned usually results me in wanting to throw the bike in a ditch.
    Not talking about pad positioning but width between the pads. If you adjust your brake pads close to narrow rims, they won't clear wide rims.

  18. #93
    token triathlete Bah Humbug's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by rpenmanparker View Post
    Not talking about pad positioning but width between the pads. If you adjust your brake pads close to narrow rims, they won't clear wide rims.
    Oh, yes, I know what you meant. My Belgiums are 23mm at the brake track; my Rails will be 25mm. That's 1mm at each side, which can even be handled by just setting it so the QR is open on the Rails and closed on the Belgiums. Much easier than trying to finagle the shifting.

    Can you tell I hate adjusting my RD? I hate adjusting my RD.

  19. #94
    Senior Member island rider's Avatar
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    Bah Humbug - I see your point. I am more worried about actual adjustment (cables, etc.). If I can do without barrel turns, etc. So much the better, but I tend to switch between Sram and Shimano cassettes of various sizes and figured that would require a bit of tweaking. If not, yay me.

    rpen - I think you are talking about the width of the rim, versus Humbug talking about the depth of the brake track.

    Either way, I think we are all in violent agreement here. /Hijack
    "I think drivers become like dogs when they see a bicycle fly by at 40mph. Instinctively, they just want to give chase, catch them, and eat them." - Papa Tom

  20. #95
    Senior Member island rider's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bah Humbug View Post
    Can you tell I hate adjusting my RD? I hate adjusting my RD.
    Do you really have that much trouble with it? I practically got wood the day I figured out how that barrel adjuster worked. It cures everything. Missed shift... turn, turn, turn. Shifting on its own... turn, turn, turn. Squishy feeling tires... turn, turn, turn. Store out of your favorite beer... turn, turn, turn.
    "I think drivers become like dogs when they see a bicycle fly by at 40mph. Instinctively, they just want to give chase, catch them, and eat them." - Papa Tom

  21. #96
    token triathlete Bah Humbug's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by island rider View Post
    Do you really have that much trouble with it? I practically got wood the day I figured out how that barrel adjuster worked. It cures everything. Missed shift... turn, turn, turn. Shifting on its own... turn, turn, turn. Squishy feeling tires... turn, turn, turn. Store out of your favorite beer... turn, turn, turn.
    Yup. I know the theory, I know which way to turn it to add and remove tension, and which way the tension pulls the RD... still manage to hamfist it horribly. It's a major reason I want Di2.

  22. #97
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    Quote Originally Posted by bianchi10 View Post
    He isnt talking about the pro rider. Scroll down
    For the pictures with chinese caption:
    1. Formed off center, with a gaping hole. It is dangerous for riding.
    2. One side is formed with circles (possibly mean bubbles), other side does not. It's not made evenly, therefore with unequal strength, easily causes stress points.
    3. Improper bonding of different materials left gaps.
    4. Gaps, unevenness
    5. Internals of the braking surfacehas gaps, and the material is not applied evenly. Heat generated from braking would not dissipate properly


    As a Hong Kong born Canadian Chinese who went back to work there for a couple of years, one of the things I notice about the Mainlanders would do is to cross the border to buy baby formula for their kids.

    If they don't trust their own manufacturing standards for baby formula, would you want to trust a pair of rims that are hard to make well, without a good QA record, and little recourse if bad things(tm) did happen?

    I'd buy alloys if I couldn't afford the carbon.

  23. #98
    Senior Member island rider's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bah Humbug View Post
    I know which way to turn it to add and remove tension, and which way the tension pulls the RD...
    Hell, I know none of that. I just turn a few times in one direction, if that doesn't work, I try the other direction. I wonder if there is a solution to my lack of knowledge, I know... turn, turn, turn.

    Srysly - I like the way you're thinking. Eliminate as much variable as possible.
    "I think drivers become like dogs when they see a bicycle fly by at 40mph. Instinctively, they just want to give chase, catch them, and eat them." - Papa Tom

  24. #99
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    Darn, someone beat me to the baby formula anology.
    Here's a here-say joke on Mainland Chinese ethics.

    1. Farmer buys counterfeit seeds (this really happens) so has no food to feed family.
    2. Farmer buys gasoline to commit suicide, and drinks it.
    3. Gas was counterfeit; it was alcohol and he got drunk instead.
    4. Family was so happy he lived, they had a celebration party.
    5. Party whisky was counterfeit; so the gasoline killed the farmer.

    If you read up on the Foxconn suicides, you have to wonder if the guy building your wheels hadn't slept in a few days.
    I like Chinese carbon, if it is cosmetic only.

    I do have a few honorable Mainland Chinese friends/business associates but from my experience; I am comfortable stereotyping Mainland Chinese as having no business ethics because the concept of ethics does not exist there.
    Last edited by ttakata73; 05-31-13 at 04:59 PM.

  25. #100
    Mr. Dopolina Bob Dopolina's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by island rider View Post
    So, that would be the best bet in terms of swap-ability. Drop one wheel, pop the other in (assume something like 11/12 - 25/28 for cassettes) and ride away. (Maybe a few barrel turns..)
    We built 15 sets of team wheels and the same hub but with a mix of carbon depths and alloy as well. They were completely interchangeable with no der adjustments needed. That was the point.
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