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  1. #76
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    Last spring I hit the last spot of ice on my first day of no studs and foolishly unclipped when I lost control midturn. Had i stayed in my pedals I would just have had a sore hip and a wounded pride. Instead my left leg was left behind as I slided out and I got a fracture in my legbone and a really badly twisted knee. Often ,not always, it is better to stay clipped in if you go down.

  2. #77
    Senior Member rumrunn6's Avatar
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    re: "old quill pedals with toe clips and straps"

    ah, I did not know that. so how long ago were those phased out? like 40 years ago? since they're gone, why are we still referring to any others as - non-them. they're gone, forget them. new names for new stuff, I say. let's call the new new stuff cleats, not clipless. after all, we don't call cars horseless carriages anymore

    re: "it's called a strike when the ball isn't struck"

    that is some good stuff right there
    cycling is like baseball ~ it doesn't take much to make it interesting

  3. #78
    Senior Member Frankfast's Avatar
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    My humble opinion (after falling many times learning to ride clipless). I don't use them in traffic or where there's intersections. I'm not able to unclip fast enough in an emergency no matter how I adjust them. In those situations I ride platforms one side and clipless the other with mountainbike shoes and I stay on the platform side. I'm also not speeding in that environment so I can maintain control of my feet. On the other hand, when I'm on the open road I switch to the clipless side. When I know my ride will be free of traffic, I'll change to road shoes and clipless only. I feel more secure knowing that my feel will stay on the pedals at higher speeds.
    The trick to life is to keep moving.

  4. #79
    Rubber side down Clipped_in's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by caloso View Post
    Let's save ourselves some posts and just skip ahead to the part where clipless pedals can cause death.
    I've been killed by clipless pedals. More than once...
    ...Just mount a bicycle and go out for a spin down the road. ~ Sir Arthur Conan Doyle

  5. #80
    You Know!? For Kids! jsharr's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by rumrunn6 View Post
    re: "old quill pedals with toe clips and straps"

    ah, I did not know that. so how long ago were those phased out? like 40 years ago? since they're gone, why are we still referring to any others as - non-them. they're gone, forget them. new names for new stuff, I say. let's call the new new stuff cleats, not clipless. after all, we don't call cars horseless carriages anymore

    re: "it's called a strike when the ball isn't struck"

    that is some good stuff right there
    I rode clips and straps all through the 80s. Go the Speedplay pedal museum and you can see the changes and when the modern clipless pedal really came into vogue. To answer your question, clipless started being widely used in the early to mid 90s

    http://www.speedplay.com/index.cfm?f...almuseum.intro
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    Quote Originally Posted by colorider View Post
    Phobias are for irrational fears. Fear of junk ripping badgers is perfectly rational. Those things are nasty.

  6. #81
    You Know!? For Kids! jsharr's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Clipped_in View Post
    I've been killed by clipless pedals. More than once...
    Is that you, Obediah?

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    Quote Originally Posted by colorider View Post
    Phobias are for irrational fears. Fear of junk ripping badgers is perfectly rational. Those things are nasty.

  7. #82
    Must... ride... more... Phil_gretz's Avatar
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    Priceless...

    Quote Originally Posted by RT View Post
    It should bear the honorary name of 'Fred's Conjecture'.
    Well played.

  8. #83
    Descends like a rock pallen's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by thump55 View Post
    I will however, agree to agree with you.
    Yep, when I first switched to SPD (mountain) pedals, I actually came unclipped on a fast climb. I don't need a study to tell me that I never pull up. I don't do it often, but it happens. I also started getting a sore butt and back of my legs when I switched to clipless pedals from platforms.

  9. #84
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    Quote Originally Posted by thump55 View Post
    Clipless may not "significantly" increase power output, but it allows you to maintain the same power output for a longer time, which is in all reality, an increase in power.

    By using other muscles besides the main "push down" group, you spread the burden around which makes all the muscles involved last longer.
    Not really. The point is you can still use those other muscles to unweight the non-power leg with platform pedals. It's not necessary to apply any force to the rising pedal.

    Spreading the work to other muscles sounds great but doesn't result in any extra power as the main 'pipe' delivering oxygen to your muscles is the primary limiter. That's why EPO works. Send more oxygen to your muscles and they can do more work.

    Bacciagalupe's summary was accurate.

  10. #85
    Professional Fuss-Budget Bacciagalupe's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Homebrew01 View Post
    Have you ever sprinted, or attacked (or chased an attack) on a climb ? I can feel my foot trying to pull out of my shoe from the upward force.
    That doesn't mean you are actually applying usable force to the drivetrain. It doesn't take a lot of force to create that sensation / subjective impression.


    On longer sustained climbs, I can decide to utilize my hamstrings and pull through the bottom of the stroke.
    The amount of power that actually makes it to the drivetrain in those situations is negligible.


    I'm curious about these "studies" and how they were run.
    Basically, they put pro cyclists into stationary bikes with pedal-based power meters, instruct them to pedal in different fashions, and measure the output. E.g. http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/17545890


    And for bonus points, this is some raw data from Metrigear's pedal-based power meters, which show what's actually happening when you're pedaling. The right leg applies force on the downstroke; the amount of power drops to zero; and then it climbs again. When the right leg is at the 12:00 and the left leg is at the 6:00, that's the "dead spot." It only looks like continuous force is applied to the drivetrain when you average it out.



    I.e. your legs are not supplying continuous power to the bicycle. A bicycle is a two-stroke engine, and foot retention doesn't change that.

  11. #86
    Quirky Grifter LesterOfPuppets's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by rumrunn6 View Post
    whatever, can we change the freakin names tho. you clip in and out of clipless pedals. rattraps with straps have no clips. please people, can we change the names.


    Running straps without clips = doing it wrong.
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  12. #87
    Descends like a rock pallen's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bacciagalupe View Post
    That doesn't mean you are actually applying usable force to the drivetrain. It doesn't take a lot of force to create that sensation / subjective impression.



    The amount of power that actually makes it to the drivetrain in those situations is negligible.



    Basically, they put pro cyclists into stationary bikes with pedal-based power meters, instruct them to pedal in different fashions, and measure the output. E.g. http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/17545890


    And for bonus points, this is some raw data from Metrigear's pedal-based power meters, which show what's actually happening when you're pedaling. The right leg applies force on the downstroke; the amount of power drops to zero; and then it climbs again. When the right leg is at the 12:00 and the left leg is at the 6:00, that's the "dead spot." It only looks like continuous force is applied to the drivetrain when you average it out.


    I.e. your legs are not supplying continuous power to the bicycle. A bicycle is a two-stroke engine, and foot retention doesn't change that.
    No one is saying clipless pedals magically give you continuous power, that's just silly. These graphs are exactly what I would expect for steady state cruising along with or without clipless pedals. I do notice a bit of negative values, especially on the right foot. Its small, but I wouldn't call that insignificant. The fact that you can unweight your pedal completely without your foot floating off is also very significant for power production.

    I completely agree with their conclusion - that pedaling technique is not that significant to power output. Notice their conclusions mention nothing comparing to platforms, sprinting or climbing a steep hill. Is there a graph showing power output on platforms? I find when I am on platforms that I never fully unload the upstroke pedal, and my feet start hurting a lot quicker.

  13. #88
    Senior Member MRT2's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by pallen View Post
    No one is saying clipless pedals magically give you continuous power, that's just silly. These graphs are exactly what I would expect for steady state cruising along with or without clipless pedals. I do notice a bit of negative values, especially on the right foot. Its small, but I wouldn't call that insignificant. The fact that you can unweight your pedal completely without your foot floating off is also very significant for power production.

    I completely agree with their conclusion - that pedaling technique is not that significant to power output. Notice their conclusions mention nothing comparing to platforms, sprinting or climbing a steep hill. Is there a graph showing power output on platforms? I find when I am on platforms that I never fully unload the upstroke pedal, and my feet start hurting a lot quicker.
    Also contributes to fatigue on longer rides.

  14. #89
    Senior Member rumrunn6's Avatar
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    re: "Speedplay pedal museum"

    I like the one with the cat face on it
    cycling is like baseball ~ it doesn't take much to make it interesting

  15. #90
    Senior Member curiouskid55's Avatar
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    Hasn't anyone ever done one legged drills? Try riding with one leg. The superiority of clipless pedals should be obvious.

  16. #91
    bill nyecycles the sci guy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by StanSeven View Post
    I test rode a tt/tri bike with platforms. Every time I came to a hill or needed to pick up the pace substantially I couldn't keep my feet stationary on the pedals.
    so, walking up stairs must be a real challenge for you then.
    Last edited by the sci guy; 07-03-13 at 02:08 PM.

  17. #92
    bill nyecycles the sci guy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by TampaRaleigh View Post

    Science rules.

  18. #93
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    Quote Originally Posted by the sci guy View Post
    so, walking up stairs must be a real challenge for you then.
    You wouldn't understand since you obviously put out 200 watts max in rides
    You're just trying to start an argument to show how smart you are.

  19. #94
    You Know!? For Kids! jsharr's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by the sci guy View Post
    so, walking up stairs must be a real challenge for you then.
    I have a clipless escalator.
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    Quote Originally Posted by colorider View Post
    Phobias are for irrational fears. Fear of junk ripping badgers is perfectly rational. Those things are nasty.

  20. #95
    I got 99 problems.... thump55's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by pallen View Post
    I completely agree with their conclusion - that pedaling technique is not that significant to power output. Notice their conclusions mention nothing comparing to platforms, sprinting or climbing a steep hill. Is there a graph showing power output on platforms?
    +1

    I have a road bike with clipless and a road bike with platforms. On the same climb, my clipless bike is faster than my platforms.

    Aero being equal, in order to go faster, you need to put our more power (or prolonged power).

    Conclusion: I am putting out more power (or maintaining the same amount longer) with clipless.

    This isn't that hard.

  21. #96
    Quirky Grifter LesterOfPuppets's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by curiouskid55 View Post
    Hasn't anyone ever done one legged drills? Try riding with one leg. The superiority of clipless pedals should be obvious.
    I've done 'em with clips-n-straps, SPDs, Looks and BMX platforms. Not a big diff between clips-n-straps and clipless, IME. (actually more like no discernible difference)

    Toughest is BMX platforms. You need to get up to at least 10mph before going one-legged (with 34x17), or you'll stall out.
    Last edited by LesterOfPuppets; 07-03-13 at 02:35 PM.
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  22. #97
    Must... ride... more... Phil_gretz's Avatar
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    I vow to never again comment about clipless pedals. Wait... Did I just do it again? Rats!

  23. #98
    I'm doing it wrong. RJM's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by thump55 View Post
    +1

    I have a road bike with clipless and a road bike with platforms. On the same climb, my clipless bike is faster than my platforms.

    Aero being equal, in order to go faster, you need to put our more power (or prolonged power).

    Conclusion: I am putting out more power (or maintaining the same amount longer) with clipless.

    This isn't that hard.
    Are they the same bikes?
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  24. #99
    Prefers Cicero cooker's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Retro Grouch View Post
    With a flat pedal, how do you manage to keep your rear foot in contact with the pedal?

    You press down on it.
    Actually no - you have two choices. Let's say your right foot is forward, pressing down. You can passively let the left foot rest on the pedal as it rises, so your right leg is doing all the work on pushing your left leg up. Or, you can pull up gently with the left leg, just enough to lighten the load on the pedal without losing contact.

    In either case, you are not wasting energy. Some force has to lift the left leg. It can either be the muscles of the left leg pulling up, or the muscles of the right leg pushing down. As long as you are not actively resisting the upward motion, it is the same amount of work either way.

  25. #100
    I got 99 problems.... thump55's Avatar
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    No, the one with platforms is 1 lb heavier. That must be the reason it is slower.

    It surely couldn't be because of less quadricep fatigue due to more hamstring usage to maintain the same wattage.

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